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Discussion Starter #1
We all know that the Brooklyn and CW Post campuses merged and gave LIU FCS football (which went 0-10 this year), and D1 lacrosse. They also added women's water polo and women's hockey last year. Now, they've added men's hockey, men's swimming and women's gymnastics. They have 19(!) women's varsity sports now (though in fairness, rugby and esquestian aren't sanctioned by the NCAA but, can be sponsored at the varsity level).

The men's hockey thing is making some ripples, and it sounds like they might be jumping in this with little to no plan at all and want to start playing THIS coming year:


1) They set the coaching budget at $150k total. That includes assistants UVM just paid its new head coach $275k, and he probably got about $175-200k to hire assistants. I think the entire UVM hockey budget is in the $3-4 million range. The BCs and North Dakotas of the world are a lot more than that. LIU doesn't even have a rink, so would need rentals, and equipment and all that too.

2) College Hockey Inc. (marketing arm for sport/helps teams transition or start teams) didn't know this was happening. Neither did Hockey East or Atlantic Hockey, two leagues the AD mentioned they'd be a fit for:



It's pretty wild. They don't even have a ACHA club hockey team for the men. LIU women's hockey did well their first year, but women's hockey is completely different. Technically speaking, NCAA women's has only Division III. All the D1 teams are recognized but it's not a standalone division. That's why LIU was able to join that league with the D2 NE-10 schools for women's hockey. Budgets are a lot lower...the recruiting isn't as intense or complex as it is at the men's level. Women played at 3 different rinks last year.

3) What the hell, Stony Brook? This was your chance to get more hockey on Long Island! If SBU had, probably would have a good chance at being the 12th Hockey East member (the AE people would have lobbied for you)...and there is apparently a rink being built in Ronkonkoma which isn't too far from campus (though probably not gonna move the needle to get fans...off campus arenas never work).
 

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It’s called we don’t have enough money because Andrew Cuomo is a POS.

We need our athletic budget expanded so much.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
It’s called we don’t have enough money because Andrew Cuomo is a POS.

We need our athletic budget expanded so much.
I assume your gripe has much to do with his NY public education funding model in regards to his free tuition program but not meeting the $$ requirement to support the institutions? Just remember, adding hockey kills all your (maybe not you personally) Stony Brook fans dreams of getting that coveted power conference invite you all seem to think is coming (unless that delusion left with that idiot former AD of yours), because it's an expensive sport and unless you have more super donors stepping up for football and basketball, they'd stay budgeted relatively the same. Not a bad thing by any means, Stony Brook and the AE/CAA Football are a great fit I think. And like I said, no on campus rink owned by the school = big rental costs off campus, which leads to not great student support and never justifying the rent of a 5,000 seater like the proposed one in Ronkonkoma, 10 minute drive away. Increase in institutional support or not, you'd need a big backer.

Penn State had Pegula, and Arizona State had some big money behind it. Both had in the range of $50 million or so I think. LIU seemingly has none of this, so it's going to be interesting how the hell they pull it off with those suspected budget numbers. It's why you have people questioning if they know what they're actually getting themselves into.

Schools like Illinois that have been planning this for years even hit the pause button on a forthcoming annoucement because of Covid. They've got a crapload more money than LIU does. Schools like Navy has been modeling it for years and might finally be serious in the coming years. Getting a revival at Penn (dropped varsity in 1978, still has the rink on campus, and are renovating it thanks to money from the Flyers) is a 10 year plan at best from its club hockey endowment that has the sole goal of proving to the athletic department it's feasible and can have a funding model. UNLV is just basically begging some rich person to fund them to make the jump from club to varsity and probably a rink that isn't the Golden Knights practice facility. Moving up to D1 hockey is no walk in the park, and LIU is truly swimming with the Sharks with this move.
 

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The AE/CAA is nothing to be satisfied with, it’s a mere stepping stone.

Cuomo has decreased state funding gradually since 2008, which is even worse after considering inflation.

on-campus hockey would be a huge hit at SBU. Our AD has said in the past that it can’t happen because he would need to add 3 more women’s sports for Title 9, and he doesn’t have the money for it. Personally I’d rather see the moneyused for football, but we shouldn’t be in this either/or situation. The club team currently plays a small rink 10 miles away. They treat themselves like a D1 team even if we can’t officially recognize them.
 

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I assume your gripe has much to do with his NY public education funding model in regards to his free tuition program but not meeting the $$ requirement to support the institutions? Just remember, adding hockey kills all your (maybe not you personally) Stony Brook fans dreams of getting that coveted power conference invite you all seem to think is coming (unless that delusion left with that idiot former AD of yours), because it's an expensive sport and unless you have more super donors stepping up for football and basketball, they'd stay budgeted relatively the same. Not a bad thing by any means, Stony Brook and the AE/CAA Football are a great fit I think. And like I said, no on campus rink owned by the school = big rental costs off campus, which leads to not great student support and never justifying the rent of a 5,000 seater like the proposed one in Ronkonkoma, 10 minute drive away. Increase in institutional support or not, you'd need a big backer.

Penn State had Pegula, and Arizona State had some big money behind it. Both had in the range of $50 million or so I think. LIU seemingly has none of this, so it's going to be interesting how the hell they pull it off with those suspected budget numbers. It's why you have people questioning if they know what they're actually getting themselves into.

Schools like Illinois that have been planning this for years even hit the pause button on a forthcoming annoucement because of Covid. They've got a crapload more money than LIU does. Schools like Navy has been modeling it for years and might finally be serious in the coming years. Getting a revival at Penn (dropped varsity in 1978, still has the rink on campus, and are renovating it thanks to money from the Flyers) is a 10 year plan at best from its club hockey endowment that has the sole goal of proving to the athletic department it's feasible and can have a funding model. UNLV is just basically begging some rich person to fund them to make the jump from club to varsity and probably a rink that isn't the Golden Knights practice facility. Moving up to D1 hockey is no walk in the park, and LIU is truly swimming with the Sharks with this move.
I have nothing to go on it by, but I believe UNLV may have given up on the idea since Foley decided to buy the AHL’s San Antonio Rampage and relocate them to be Las Vegas’s inexpensive hockey option.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I have nothing to go on it by, but I believe UNLV may have given up on the idea since Foley decided to buy the AHL’s San Antonio Rampage and relocate them to be Las Vegas’s inexpensive hockey option.
Interesting. Are there other ice rinks in Vegas where they'd play? The only thing UNLV could have going for it is if the Knights build a 4-5k seater and let them share/rent it. But, like I said, you can't have a strategy of hoping a rich hockey guy feels the need to fund you. I wouldn't rule them out completely, but it sounds like they need to get serious setting up endowments and showcasing feasibility to the athletic department to get viable. I think a west coast league in college hockey arrives within 20 years. It won't be a bunch of Pac 12 schools, but likely ends up being a mixture of teams from different all sports leagues.

I get the move given Vegas' AHL team was in Chicago before, that's really far. Still always feel bad for fans of a city when teams get bought and are up and relocated right away. Seems to be a trend in the AHL where NHL clubs buy them or move the team to the same city/share facilities. Feels like if you're not within 4-5 hours of the NHL club, there's a threat the team could get moved somewhere closer. After Covid, we might see a few of these AHL markets not have the funds. Utica is probably in trouble...Vancouver would probably rather not have its AHL team 3,000 miles away. The ECHL and the other minor leagues are going to be in even worse shape. Post-Covid is not going to be kind to minor league hockey, baseball, or soccer.

The AE/CAA is nothing to be satisfied with, it’s a mere stepping stone.

Cuomo has decreased state funding gradually since 2008, which is even worse after considering inflation.

on-campus hockey would be a huge hit at SBU. Our AD has said in the past that it can’t happen because he would need to add 3 more women’s sports for Title 9, and he doesn’t have the money for it. Personally I’d rather see the moneyused for football, but we shouldn’t be in this either/or situation. The club team currently plays a small rink 10 miles away. They treat themselves like a D1 team even if we can’t officially recognize them.
A strong agree to disagree on the "stepping stone" comment in regards Stony Brook's aspirations/reality of college sports. But, I mean LIU just randomly added like 5 women's sports in the last calendar year so there's hope yet. But, if you want football to be the top dog, just forget about hockey because it either won't be important enough and a money drain, or it'll be like UNH and Maine, where basketball gets the short end of the stick.
 

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Interesting. Are there other ice rinks in Vegas where they'd play? The only thing UNLV could have going for it is if the Knights build a 4-5k seater and let them share/rent it. But, like I said, you can't have a strategy of hoping a rich hockey guy feels the need to fund you. I wouldn't rule them out completely, but it sounds like they need to get serious setting up endowments and showcasing feasibility to the athletic department to get viable. I think a west coast league in college hockey arrives within 20 years. It won't be a bunch of Pac 12 schools, but likely ends up being a mixture of teams from different all sports leagues.

I get the move given Vegas' AHL team was in Chicago before, that's really far. Still always feel bad for fans of a city when teams get bought and are up and relocated right away. Seems to be a trend in the AHL where NHL clubs buy them or move the team to the same city/share facilities. Feels like if you're not within 4-5 hours of the NHL club, there's a threat the team could get moved somewhere closer. After Covid, we might see a few of these AHL markets not have the funds. Utica is probably in trouble...Vancouver would probably rather not have its AHL team 3,000 miles away. The ECHL and the other minor leagues are going to be in even worse shape. Post-Covid is not going to be kind to minor league hockey, baseball, or soccer.
So for the first few years, the Silver Knights (that's the name until further notice) is going to play at the Orleans Arena (where the ECHL's Wranglers played until being kept out of the AHL/ECHL realignment by the casino in 2014 and subsequently folding) and Foley will be building a new arena in Henderson. Since it'll be a 50/50 public/private project (unlike T-Mobile, which was 100% private), there is opposition from Henderson residents. Pesonally, I'd like to see them stay in the Orleans because that was built specifically for the Wranglers, and we already have six arenas, with an seventh being built behind the Palazzo and Venitian to be finished in the next year. We don't need eight. Heck, when the Silver Knights practice rink in Downtown Henderson finishes this summer, that'll be only ice sheet number six and seven in the valley, one shy of the NHL's requirement.

Honestly, Chicago wasn't too far, as the Wolves play right next to O'Haire, which is only a four hour flight from Vegas. But with Golden Knights tickets rivaling the Maple Leafs in cost and capacity (all locals, which was not what was predicted when they came into the league), and GMGM wanting the coaching staff to work with the AHL team (my belief why he really fired Gallant and hired DeBoer, who had a similar situation with the Sharks), and the AHL waning more teams in the west, it was bound to happen.

As far as UNLV, it won't happen anytime soon without a fully subsidized millionaire. On Friday, its AD found herself at the top of UCLA's target list after only 3 years in Las Vegas, and who knows what their finances will look like after the new Mountain West TV deal starts in 3 years. If they do start up, they won't play at Thomas and Mack, because even though it does have ice making capabilities, the sightlines have the same issues that the Islanders had at Barclays. They could go to the Orleans, but 7000 seats is too much for an athletic department that spent 10 years burning its fanbase while major league sports came into the market.

College hockey, with the WCHA losing all teams not named Alaska and Alabama, will eventually move west, and as you said, not PAC 12. If UAH can join something like Atlantic Hockey, then the two Alaska schools can convince Air Force and Colorado College to leave their conferences, rope in Arizona St, and maybe convince Simon Fraiser to start up a program (a less tough sell in Canada), and the WCHA can stay alive.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
As far as UNLV, it won't happen anytime soon without a fully subsidized millionaire. On Friday, its AD found herself at the top of UCLA's target list after only 3 years in Las Vegas, and who knows what their finances will look like after the new Mountain West TV deal starts in 3 years. If they do start up, they won't play at Thomas and Mack, because even though it does have ice making capabilities, the sightlines have the same issues that the Islanders had at Barclays. They could go to the Orleans, but 7000 seats is too much for an athletic department that spent 10 years burning its fanbase while major league sports came into the market.

College hockey, with the WCHA losing all teams not named Alaska and Alabama, will eventually move west, and as you said, not PAC 12. If UAH can join something like Atlantic Hockey, then the two Alaska schools can convince Air Force and Colorado College to leave their conferences, rope in Arizona St, and maybe convince Simon Fraiser to start up a program (a less tough sell in Canada), and the WCHA can stay alive.
Yeah, I think there is an appetitte for hockey in Vegas, though it will be interesting to see if the Raiders take a dent into it. UNLV whether they get a new AD or not, and the revenue streams, it's a matter of formalizing planning and development with some level of approval from the athletic department itself. I think when college hockey does go west, and maybe it's not them first, but there will be more of a jump when leagues are regionalized. Issue with any school like Simon Fraiser joining is it would now have to take its entire athletic program into Division 1. They'd slot into the Big Sky as a 12th member if they wanted (have football, and are terrible at it), but the lack of a "play up" clause for the men's game anymore honestly hampers a lot of westward expansion.

I could see a school like Grand Canyon starting hockey. They've got that for-profit money, and they did move their club team up to ACHA Division I...facilities are going to be a thing with most of them, but all you really need for hockey is 4-6k. Back east there's talk Liberty, another school with that kind of for-profit money might add hockey. They've already got a 4,000-seat rink and a competitive club team.

I do know Air Force likes being in AHA because they get to play Army, and don't mind the travel (though after the pandemic, schools like AIC and RIT etc. might not like traveling out there as much). If Navy does in fact add hockey, it's a practical lock for AHA and that gets them to 12 teams (which is why people don't think they take LIU until they know for sure what Navy is doing). But, I think if more true western schools add it combined with Arizona State and the Alaska schools if they both make it, plus probably have to take Huntsville, Air Force might be inclined to do it. Still could easily play series with both Army and Navy yearly. Colorado College would probably only exit NCHC if they really hated being the league's punching bag.

Also, for context for the unititiated: WCHA is a hockey league that at one time, along with CCHA that had many Big 10 and NCHC schools along with others in their respective conferences. Once Penn State came along, the Big 10 had enough to break away for its own conference, and worried that they'd lose their competitiveness, the top schools in WCHA/CCHA (North Dakotas, MN-Duluths, Denvers) all formed NCHC. That left the rest to just absorb into WCHA and CCHA was done. But, just this year, 7 of the WCHA schools announced they'd be withdrawing from WHCA to form a new league, which conveniently Bowling Green kept the rights to the name CCHA so that's what the new league is called. So, they're all gonna do that starting in 2021-22. Their 8th member is likely St. Thomas if they get approved for that waiver to jump from D3 to D1. Means both Alaska Anchorage, Alaska Fairbanks and Alabama Huntsville, all WCHA members will be left with no conference after 2021, if any of their programs even make it out of the pandemic.

(PS - sorry about the essays, but let's also not pretend like you all got much else to do these days either)
 

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Discussion Starter #10
If hockey combines DI and DII into one classification, does Simon Fraiser really have to do a complete jump from DII to DI?
It wouldn't have to, but it doesn't sound like they're going to do that on the men's side like they have on the women's side. And really, the women's is because there's just a lack of teams.

The only conference that all its members have women's hockey is ECAC. College Hockey America and NEWHA are literally just holding zones for teams that have nowhere to go/letting D2 teams play up because they need to bolster numbers. It's nice to see college hockey growing as a pro path/expansion possibilities and talent to go around, but on the flip side it's sad and pathetic that the women's game hasn't been allowed to match it, and a school like North Dakota willingly drops it.

If they allowed the play up rule again, I think instantly they could get teams like Simon Fraiser , Minot State, Lindenwood's men's team who have pretty dominant club teams, and maybe even a school like Adrian which is D3 but may see appeal in it. Outside of SFU, the other teams would fit the CCHA profile. But, maybe a few schools close to Canada like Western Washington or something could see the benefit in having a team.

On the flip side I'm not sure the current D2 (the NE10 schools) see appeal in playing up for men. Most don't have the money (men's finances are a lot more than women's hockey if you're serious about it), and for a school like St. Michael's, it shouldn't be D2 in general because it really can't even afford that/only funds like 2.5 sports in their whole department fully.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Sadly the writing was on the wall and Covid likely pushed it to the breaking point. High probability both the Alaska schools are next. Have to wonder about the health of programs like Mercyhurst and Robert Morris too. Didn't help that for Huntsville and the Alaska schools being booted from their conference after next year, and that was before the pandemic hit.

LIU still needs a coach, but they now might have a player pool to draw from. Might also learn the financials and what it actually costs to run a college hockey program successfully with these events, too.

Shout outs to the most famous Alabama Huntsville alums Cam Talbot and Wyatt Russell.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Hopefully they can get a funding model that isn't just saving them for this year, but that is very good news for now.
 

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LIU is doing a smart thing starting Hockey. It has future on LI, more potential than football imo. SB could’ve tried. But wisely didn’t. First, we don’t have the budget... second, NY state level skate holders would never agree and would grill us to no end if we did have the budget... third, easier for private institutions to start than state institution... fourth, there is no single flagship NY university despite what Buffalo claims, but they do come close and probably would get the first dip if any SUNY were to start hockey. All these before covid19 consideration now.
 

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Title IX would balloon the budget even more if we added hockey, which is the main reason Heilbron cited as why he couldn't.

New York's state budget is pitiful, but what else is new.
 
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