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What happened to the Chicago Bulls? If I had a nickel for every Bulls' fan who taunted me online about how the Bulls would be one of the top teams in the East this year......

Losers are losers. It's very tough to teach winning to those who never have.

Wasn't Pip supposed to take them back to the playoffs? At 12-30, they appear to be completely out of it.
 

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Pippen's been complaining since Jordan retired.

If it's not the Bulls management, it's Charles Barkley. If not Barkley, then it's Houston's management. If not Houston's management, then Portland's management. Or Rasheed. Or whomever.

With apologies to Minstrel, Pippen's done considerably more complaining than playing the last several years, and I think it would be a bit more impressive if his brand of "leadership" resulted in positive results for the team and the players he's leading, rather than just in more money and more time in the paper for himself.

Ed O.
 

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You got that right ED! Good Lord did I just say that? Before my drugs wear off Pip has always been the first to point the finger and the last to lead a team anywhere. Pip should retire and be greatful that he's the best #2 option to ever play the game.

Pip will always need the man to be the man in my eyes!
 

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Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!

With apologies to Minstrel, Pippen's done considerably more complaining than playing the last several years, and I think it would be a bit more impressive if his brand of "leadership" resulted in positive results for the team and the players he's leading, rather than just in more money and more time in the paper for himself.
Well, saying things like Pippen has been "complaining more than playing" and noting the number of times he's spoken up seems like it's supposed to plant the idea that he's been doing it unreasonably. It's entirely possible he's been correct when he's spoken up.

I'm not the only one who noted that when Pippen took the Blazers to task, there was an improvement in play, for a time at least.

That is leadership. Leadership isn't going to take a team to a title by pure force of will. But when one's words actually have a positive impact, that's pretty impressive.

So, I would say that you're wrong that his words haven't had positive impact. And certainly, his play has had a ton of impact.

With apologies to you, Ed, as I didn't want to get into "I told you so"s ;) you were the one during the off-season saying losing Pippen would be of little impact, the Blazers would still likely win a similar number of games, etc. I think this season has told an entirely different tale. Without Pippen's leadership on offense, the team has been totally inept despite having better talent than some of their horrific showings would suggest.

Another point: Cheeks seems to be melting down; is it total coincidence that it comes the first season that Pippen isn't helping him with the players and during the game, settling players down on the floor, coaching from the sideline?

Final point: The team has been abysmal on the road, and road woes are often attributed to lack of leadership. Is it total coincidence that just about every "leadership" sign on the team has tanked since Pippen left town?

Maybe. But I think there's a very compelling case to be made that Pippen was an excellent leader and the Blazers' utter demise this season has been due to losing their leader from last season, right down to Bonzi Wells' incident with Cheeks.

If the Blazers had not missed a beat without Pippen (and without some comparable leader filling his void, like a Gary Payton), I would have agreed that perhaps I was wrong about Pippen's effects. What would it take for you to say that maybe (it'll always be a maybe, since these things can never be proven) you were wrong about Pippen's leadership, which you've never been too willing to give him credit for?

None of this is any way meant to be attacking. I'm not trying to subtly say you never admit to being wrong, as I'm sure you realize that I'm not. I am honestly curious...if you were possibly wrong, what signs would you use to make that determination? To me, all the signs that could possibly have happened to suggest Pippen had sizable positive leadership, did.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!

None of this is any way meant to be attacking. I'm not trying to subtly say you never admit to being wrong, as I'm sure you realize that I'm not. I am honestly curious...if you were possibly wrong, what signs would you use to make that determination? To me, all the signs that could possibly have happened to suggest Pippen had sizable positive leadership, did.
I will DEFINITELY say that you might be 100% right.

And not like a 1% chance you're right. There's maybe a 50% chance... I'll call it 49.9% so I can still assert I was right then when I said we wouldn't miss Pippen ;)

I didn't expect the team to move Wells for so little present value, and when they did, I think it made comparing the team last year (with Pippen) to this year (without Pippen) almost impossible.

I may be in a minority of 1 here, but if Wells had been starting the last month at the 2 spot, with McInnis at the 1, I think Portland would be in the 7th or 8th seed in the West right now, which is right about where they were last year at this time (or had they already started their climb? I forget and am too lazy to look it up at the moment).

As it is, I think the current team with Pippen would be a few games better but not as good as we'd all like it to be.

As I'll readily admit, though, this is a pair of speculative points on my part and so you might NEVER get more than a 49.9% "you were right" out of me on this topic. :)

With that said, I don't think that Pippen's brand of leadership (chastising through the media) has EVER been effective, and I think that when the teams he was on succeeded it was because he was on the court, making things happen, not because he was off of it telling management and his teammates what they should be doing. Unfortunately for the Bulls, he's been doing less and less of the former and seemingly just as much of the latter.

Ed O.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
With that said, I don't think that Pippen's brand of leadership (chastising through the media) has EVER been effective...
I dunno.

Remember Larry Bird in '84 after his team lost game 3 of the finals 137-104?

"We played like a bunch of women tonight. I know the heart and soul of this team, and today the heart wasn't there, that's for sure. I can't believe a team like this would let L.A. come out and push us around like they did. Today I didn't feel we played hard. We got beat bad, and it's very embarrassing."

Boston went on to win the championship in 7 games.

Granted, these are very different situations. I really just wanted to print Bird's quote, especially where he said "We played like a bunch of women tonight." hahaha...
 

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Originally posted by <b>HearToTemptYou</b>!

Granted, these are very different situations. I really just wanted to print Bird's quote, especially where he said "We played like a bunch of women tonight." hahaha...
I might have been unclear (not terribly uncommon, I know). I didn't mean that chastising teammates never works, but I meant that it never worked for Pippen.

Well, not NEVER, but not that often...

Ed O.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!

As I'll readily admit, though, this is a pair of speculative points on my part and so you might NEVER get more than a 49.9% "you were right" out of me on this topic. :)
Well, I'm overwhelmed by your graciousness by giving me almost half a chance of being right! I think I can honestly call this a clear win for me. ;)

With that said, I don't think that Pippen's brand of leadership (chastising through the media) has EVER been effective
I don't think criticizing management is leadership, or an attempt to lead. I just don't think it's necessarily a negative. Pippen has a big ego, which you've noted and I agree. But let's not forget that the people that he's criticizing also have big egos (Jerry Krause, Bob Whitsitt) and I don't know that a star using his unique power (unique among workers vs. management) to call a spade a spade with management is a bad thing. Pippen has been alternately complimentary and critical of both men, which some people astonishingly call being inconsistant. It seems more like being "balanced," to me...both men deserve praise and criticism.

On the other hand, when Pippen has criticized his teammates, they've usually responded. Last year's climb, that you referred to, corresponded very closely with Pippen's comments that the team was playing with no effort or pride and that championship hopes were dead and buried.

And I've seen Pippen's newspaper remarks about his team have that effect in each of the last three seasons.

As with any leadership questions, it's too ephemeral to prove, but there's at least strong circumstantial evidence for Pippen and leadership.

Lastly, regarding Wells being dealt invalidating comparisons, I would note that the Blazers were already tremendously disappointing and clueless on offense prior to the deal. Small sample size, yes, but when an entire team slumps systematically (and not just in something subject to variance, like hitting/missing shots), it still says something.
 

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With apologies to you, Ed, as I didn't want to get into "I told you so"s you were the one during the off-season saying losing Pippen would be of little impact, the Blazers would still likely win a similar number of games, etc.
To be fair to Ed, I think I might have gone on record saying something similar.

Dan
 

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IMO.....Losing Pip's leadership was significantly detrimental to the team.

But he wasn't the only guy we lost at that time......

In my mind, I will always see the two seasoned vets leaving at the same time as related in some way. And certainly I will always see the Blazers' struggling performance the next season as related to their leaving.

Old veteran warriors JEGA!!!!!
 

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Originally posted by <b>ThatBlazerGuy</b>!
Hell...id love to take Pip outta that hell hole..
pip for patterson
sounds good done deal
You are kidding right? I sure hope so. I would rather have Ruben over Pip anyday right now. Ruben is the ultimate hustle guy who gives the Blazers a big spark off the bench. You never know now when Pip will get hurt. Ruben is far more valuable than Pip would ever be.
 

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I for one am tired of Pip bumping his gums while he sits injured as always and back seat drives. When is Pip not hurt over the last two years? Can he jump in and help the Bulls right now? No he can't, so he should shut up for once!

He blabbed in Portland, The Rockets and Chicago and now back in Chicago again. When's he happy?

Retire Pip, then you wont be sooooooo disappointed anymore with everyones play and effort besides your own.:rolleyes:
 

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He was signed to do exactly this, so these comments are pretty ridiculous. He's not moaning and groaning, he's making the young players take some pride and responsibility, which is what Paxson wanted Pippen to do.

Originally posted by Terrible
Retire Pip, then you wont be sooooooo disappointed anymore with everyones play and effort besides your own. :rolleyes:
He spends the off-season staying in shape and is one of the most dedicated to lifting weights. You always ignore reality in your blather about Pippen not caring or not putting out effort.

His injuries aren't something he can prevent, with or without effort...and they are there due to all the times he sacrificed his body for the team.

Paxson very clearly said that a large reason he signed Pippen was for his vocal leadership. So your admonitions that he should "shut up" are typical of your lack of reason...your frustration at Pippen not winning you a championship causes you to keep blindly bashing him, just as you do with Rasheed Wallace.
 

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Minstrel, you're wrong about everything on me as usual! Pip does not want to hang it up when everyone can see he needs to. I was not aware he was hired as an assistant coach? I don't blast him cause he didn't win "me" a championship I blast him cause he shows up when everything is running smoothly and then takes the starting role and the credit for it, then when things go badly he gets hurt or turns on the very team he was there to help.

That's what he does year in and out.


As for my hate on Sheed you're wrong again and again and again on what you say I think!

I've always said that Sheed could be the most talented PF in the game if he'd just try night to night. He doesn't owe me a championship nor have I "EVER" said that!!! That's your sorry attempt at analyzing my thoughts. If anything Sheed owes it to himself to play one full year to the best of his ability. Maybe then he'd get the kind of money his agent thinks he deserves!

BTW- Rodman works out as hard as anyone off the court and he's in the ABA. Why? Cause he's past his prime in the NBA!
 

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Originally posted by <b>Terrible</b>!
Minstrel, you're wrong about everything on me as usual! Pip does not want to hang it up when everyone can see he needs to. I was not aware he was hired as an assistant coach?
Certainly it was part of it. Paxson said he knew Pippen would play limited minutes.

I don't blast him cause he didn't win "me" a championship I blast him cause he shows up when everything is running smoothly and then takes the starting role and the credit for it, then when things go badly he gets hurt or turns on the very team he was there to help.
That's just your perception, which I believe to be distorted. Do you have some quotes from him to the effect of "taking credit for everything running smoothly"? Because I certainly don't recall him ever actually taking credit for anything.

"Takes the starting role"? Again, your wording distorts reality, suggesting he uses a gun. He's given the starting role, by NBA head coaches, because they feel he deserves the spot.

You blame Pippen for things he never actually did or things that aren't up to him.

As for my hate on Sheed you're wrong again and again and again on what you say I think!

I've always said that Sheed could be the most talented PF in the game if he'd just try night to night.
That's very insidious praise. It means no matter what he does (short of being better than Duncan or Garnett...good luck, Wallace), you always have your justification to keep excoriating him.
 
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