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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The quote is in miz's sig and is taken from a USA Today article from yesterday

So.....

Starting 5


Center : Position Vacant
Forward : Position Vacant
Forward : Luol Deng
Guard : Position Vacant
Guard : Kirk Hinrich

Bench

Center : Tyson Chandler
Forward : Darius Songaila
Forward : Andres Nocioni
Guard : Ben Gordon
Guard : Chris Duhon

3rd string

Center : Luke Schenscher
Forward : Mike Sweetney
Guard : Jannero Pargo

OK I don't think Pierce or Garnett will be out in the open and outside of these guys as the obvious candidates no one else strikes me as either being in reach (who we might like - like Bosh ) or worthy of gutting what we have to acquire ( Lewis etc )

So I'm working under the assumption that we have free agency and the draft to address what we need in "building around Kirk"

And we're talking about 3 players

Needs :

1. Size up front
2. Size on the wing
3 Finishers
4. Another two way player

So against this broad description of needs - who fits with Kirk ?

Player #1 - Tyrus Thomas

We need an athletic finisher who can catch anything in the general vicinity of the hoop - on the break and on misses from the half court offense

Kirk was a push , transition guard at Kansas - and I still think his real value hasn't been tapped yet . Give him a finisher or two and watch Kirk gun it . I do believe that Kirk has the chance to be one of the best transition guards in the business if he has the right assets

Enter Tyrannasaurus Thomas

Thomas being a runner and crasher also allows Deng to continue to develop his post game in the half court offense ..all Tyrus need do is to with his quickness is work on a spin move with jump hook and keep working that 12ft J he showed against Texas.

He has the athleticism and co-ordination to be offensively competent as reserve offensive option - but the majority of his points initially will come with speed and explosiveness

Big motor - a competitor

Player #2 - Option A - Brandon Roy

He's our 3rd genuine two way player that can do it all - drive , shoot from range , pass and defend .

Big motor -a competitor

Player #2 - Option B - Rodney Carney

Has two way capacity although I don't think he is as all round skilled as Roy but I do think he is the more genuine finisher . Has good defensive upside as a shut down type

Is intense but seems to be a type that it works against a little bit . Needs to play within himself a bit more , relax and let the game come to him more

Player #3 - Nene

A big athletic body that can move on the break

Not a great shotblocker but more of a guy that bangs and bodies up defensively - someone to put a body on to allow the weakside shotblocking help from Thomas and Chandler

Not a prolific scorer but a guy that does have a couple of post moves and is competent

So... in building around Kirk your 2006/2007 Chicago Bulls





Nene
Thomas
Deng
Roy
Hinrich

bench

Chandler
Songaila
Nocioni
Gordon
Pargo



Note I have assumed the loss of Duhon and Sweetney to move up from say #12 spot into #7/#8 to grab Brandon Roy

The only fills we need to address our roster would be some veteran leadership - one upfront and one at guard
 

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I don't think he meant "building around" Kirk in the sense that Kirk will be our best player and everyone else will be a supporting role player. I can still see Pax pulling a deal for a player who would replace Kirk as our centerpiece for the franchise (Garnett, Pierce, Bosh, etc...)


I take "building with Kirk" as meaning..

1. Kirk was the first player Pax drafted and his attitude and work ethic will set the precedent for the rest of the team (so no Zach Randolph).

2. Kirk is our #1 point guard

3. Kirk won't be traded
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
jimmy said:
I don't think he meant "building around" Kirk in the sense that Kirk will be our best player and everyone else will be a supporting role player. I can still see Pax pulling a deal for a player who would replace Kirk as our centerpiece for the franchise (Garnett, Pierce, Bosh, etc...)


I take "building with Kirk" as meaning..

1. Kirk was the first player Pax drafted and his attitude and work ethic will set the precedent for the rest of the team (so no Zach Randolph).

2. Kirk is our #1 point guard

3. Kirk won't be traded
That's how I take it as well ... which means ...building around Kirk - given that Garnett, Bosh and Pierce won't be out in the open

That was a central part of the premise to the post
 

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I'd rather spend the money on Nazr Mohammed, mainly because I know what i'll be getting. With Nene, nobody has a clue.

Plus another option I'd like to explore is the Boozer trade, if it's possible to walk away with him for Sweets and our pick, I'd do it, would you?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
step said:
I'd rather spend the money on Nazr Mohammed, mainly because I know what i'll be getting. With Nene, nobody has a clue.
I do know he's better than Nazr

Plus another option I'd like to explore is the Boozer trade, if it's possible to walk away with him for Sweets and our pick, I'd do it, would you?
No

We need an above the rim finisher at the power spot upfront - which is why Tyrus Thomas is a much better fit with Kirk who Pax is building with
 

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I do know he's better than Nazr
Really, what tells you that? His stats this season? Nene was an athletic big that was good on the break, but after tearing his ACL, who really knows.

All we need is a center that can give us 20mins a game, the rest is for Tyson coming off the bench, why pay another big ~10M per year for that. It's a pure waste of money.
We need an above the rim finisher at the power spot upfront - which is why Tyrus Thomas is a much better fit with Kirk who Pax is building with
Boozer is that, and since his return from injury he's been playing quite well. He's almost back at the level where you can pencil him in for a 20/10 each game. Tyrus has alot of potential, but for him to get to that level will take alot of work, time and luck.

My scenario still has us in possession of the Knicks pick, where we can draft the most talented guy, whether it be Thomas, Aldridge, Roy, whoever.
 

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this should come to no surprise.

That being said, did you know Kirk has the very same stats he had last year? So where is the improvement? We need to talk about this! Gordon and others have not gotten a free pass, why should Hinrich?
 

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Just to put things in perspective:
Michael Jordan (rookie year)
28.2 PPG
6.5 TRB
5.9 APG
2.4 SPG
20.7 FGA

Kirk Hinrich (3rd season) PLUS Ben Gordon (2nd season):
32.0 PPG (+3.8)
6.1 TRB (-.4)
9.2 RPG (Kirk's 6.3 is just .4 better than Jordan's 5.9)
2.1 SPG (-.3)
27.6 FGA (-6.9, or 6.9 MORE per game)

One of these players is a guy you build "around" or "with", IMO
 

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jimmy said:
I don't think he meant "building around" Kirk in the sense that Kirk will be our best player and everyone else will be a supporting role player. I can still see Pax pulling a deal for a player who would replace Kirk as our centerpiece for the franchise (Garnett, Pierce, Bosh, etc...)


I take "building with Kirk" as meaning..

1. Kirk was the first player Pax drafted and his attitude and work ethic will set the precedent for the rest of the team (so no Zach Randolph).

2. Kirk is our #1 point guard

3. Kirk won't be traded
I don't think he meant Kirk as our best player either. Because frankly, I like Kirk, but if he's your best player, you are NEVER winning a championship. The last Champion with a best player that Kirk could be reasonably close to would be the 1979 (or 78, always get them mixed up) Supersonics and Dennis Johnson. Kirk actually reminds me a lot of Dennis Johnson, and I think that's the player he could top out as, but DJ did it when the league was perhaps at its weakest. The NBA probably hasn't experienced a 3 year span as weak as 76-79 since before Russell came into the league. So I don't think that's realistic today. I think though that you may not have meant that literally, moreso that Kirk will be the player that holds it all together, which, to me, means that we could have a STAR, a player much more talented than Kirk, a player that Sportscenter THINKS is our leader, when it will still actually be Kirk who is our leader and who does all the dirty work and glues the team together.

BUT I think that while neither of these two players are as talented OFFENSIVELY, I think Noce and Du also share in that role just as much. I mean is Du as good as Kirk at some things? No. But he's decently close in a lot of areas (i.e. what I'm about to say doesn't apply to player with NO talent), so I think that you have to give Du and Noce just as much credit for doing the little things. Outside of a few of Jordan's Bulls (Jordan, Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Harper, Levingston, Paxson, Armstrong), Eddy Curry and Antonio Davis, I've NEVER been more proud to call a guy a Chicago Bull than Kirk Hinrich, Chris Duhon and Andres Nocioni.
 

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Machinehead said:
The quote is in miz's sig and is taken from a USA Today article from yesterday

So.....

Starting 5


Center : Position Vacant
Forward : Position Vacant
Forward : Luol Deng
Guard : Position Vacant
Guard : Kirk Hinrich

Bench

Center : Tyson Chandler
Forward : Darius Songaila
Forward : Andres Nocioni
Guard : Ben Gordon
Guard : Chris Duhon

3rd string

Center : Luke Schenscher
Forward : Mike Sweetney
Guard : Jannero Pargo
I like what you've done here. But right off the bat, remember, to fill those three spots, we don't need all world players. You now have set up pretty much the same bench we had last year. Those 5 guys as your bench, are LETHAL. As lethal as anything I've seen since the Knicks could bring players like Anthony Mason, Greg Anthony, Derek Harper and Glen "Doc" Rivers off their bench at various points (I don't think that ALL of these guys were off their bench in any one season). So think about it. Last year, with THAT SAME bench, we won 47 games with the following players filling those vacancies:

Eddy Curry
Antonio Davis
Chris Duhon

None of those three guys is THAT good. I think that let's you know how close we are. And if Tyrus Thomas is one of those guys, then he can lack what AD brought in some areas because he has the same motor and at the same time is so much more athletic and young. Thomas reminds me of AD, and if we couldn't get him, Shelden Williams still could be reasonably close, again, when you factor the youth. Then there's Curry, who I could see your comparison of Nene filling his shoes, O'Bryant, Nazr Mohammed. Basically any guy who is at least 250 where you sacrifice all around game for a big fat scoring punch. Remember, if you're bringing Duhon, Noce AND Chandler off the bench, that's a lineup that will welcome teams to lockdown defensively, so with our starters we need to hit them in the mouth offensively. The real advantage comes with Duhon. Kirk will be a full-time point, so you really just need an athletic long two who wants to play D and can hit a WIDE open jumper. Someone like Iguodala moreso than some all around guy who thinks he's the next Jordan (and therefore daydreams about it during games -- See Kobe and TMac).

If we got say...

Nazr Mohammed (or Nene, O'Bryant)
Tyrus Thomas (or Shelden Williams)
Antonio Davis (back on a CHEAP deal to sit at the 5th spot in the post)
Brandon Roy (or Carney, Brewer)

We'll be pretty good off next year.

What I'm wondering is, would Pax consider trading a 2008 first rounder to someone for a first rounder this year. If we could find a way to get O'Bryant, Thomas and Roy, I'd be ecstatic. BUT I'm certainly not expecting anyone to sign onto that opinion. That's just who I'd like to see.
 

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DaBullz said:
Just to put things in perspective:
Michael Jordan (rookie year)
28.2 PPG
6.5 TRB
5.9 APG
2.4 SPG
20.7 FGA

Kirk Hinrich (3rd season) PLUS Ben Gordon (2nd season):
32.0 PPG (+3.8)
6.1 TRB (-.4)
9.2 RPG (Kirk's 6.3 is just .4 better than Jordan's 5.9)
2.1 SPG (-.3)
27.6 FGA (-6.9, or 6.9 MORE per game)

One of these players is a guy you build "around" or "with", IMO
Interesting numbers, but isn't it sort of stating the obvious? If I had Michael Jordan, I wouldn't even contemplate building with a Gordon or Hinrich
 

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The ROY said:
for the last time...

why would paxson trade for a player that publically DUPED his brother?
Maybe Paxson is focused on improving the team and doesn't have a personal agenda. I do agree that going after Boozer is much more unlikely because of that though.
 

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Rhyder said:
Interesting numbers, but isn't it sort of stating the obvious? If I had Michael Jordan, I wouldn't even contemplate building with a Gordon or Hinrich
The obvious thing is you'd want to build with/around someone much closer to Jordan than to Gordon or Hinrich. There's all kinds of those guys in the league, certainly rarer than the Gordons and Hinrichs of the league. Pierce and Garnett being prominently mentioned in other threads and all along.

My point is that we shouldn't be satisfied with what we have.
 

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DaBullz said:
The obvious thing is you'd want to build with/around someone much closer to Jordan than to Gordon or Hinrich. There's all kinds of those guys in the league, certainly rarer than the Gordons and Hinrichs of the league. Pierce and Garnett being prominently mentioned in other threads and all along.

My point is that we shouldn't be satisfied with what we have.
And I'm not.

However, it comes down to the semantics again. I'm happy to build with Kirk, not around him.
 

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DaBullz said:
The obvious thing is you'd want to build with/around someone much closer to Jordan than to Gordon or Hinrich. There's all kinds of those guys in the league, certainly rarer than the Gordons and Hinrichs of the league. Pierce and Garnett being prominently mentioned in other threads and all along.

My point is that we shouldn't be satisfied with what we have.
The very rare team can win because they come at you in waves. They have no player like Jordan, but they maybe have 8 or 9 players who would be the 2nd or 3rd best player on their opponents team. This is how we won 47 games last year. Only Eddy Curry was close to being an all-star (at a depleted position), but, like Lebron said "what are you supposed to do, they can bring lotto picks off the bench."

If you do this almost perfectly, you could end up being the 2004 Detroit Pistons or the 1989-90 Detroit Pistons. The problem is, with a wrong turn, even with the "right guys," you could end up being the Cleveland Cavaliers of the late 80s and early-mid 90s.

The wild card is Skiles. Instead of whining like a little bleep like Floyd and Cartwright about what his guys were NOT, he figured out what they WERE, and worked with that, very effectively. Eddy Curry doesn't rebound or play very good D. Fine. Skiles answer was to get Duhon, Noce and Davis out there with him, to cancel out his weaknesses while taking full advantage of his strengths. Ben Gordon finishes games explosively but can't play the whole game. Fine. Skiles answer last year was to get offense out of Curry early, and then when Curry tired down, put Gordon in there with a run the court lineup and let him sprint to the finish. Skiles is VERY good at creating winning systems and therefore making the whole greater than the sum of the parts.

The HUGE thing DaBullz is that if you go for the STAR and get the wrong one, you're gonna end up way worse off than the 1994 Cleveland Cavaliers. The Knicks have become what they are today through trying to continuously win now with the wrong star. They dug deeper and deeper and deeper until there was no more to dig. Leydon (sp?) is more to blame for this than Thomas, because he succumbed to the initial temptation that put them in a ditch.

SO, I believe you try to get the Dwyane Wade's of the world when and IF they become available. But until then I'd rather build a system around guys who will show up and who EACH individually are much more easily moved than a Paul Pierce. You get Pierce (and I'm not saying you want Pierce), and things don't work out? Good luck getting mobility in that situation.

So now, it depends. I BELIEVE, with role players like Du, Noce, Hinrich and even Chandler if he's in the right situation, this team can afford to bring in 2-3 players who are talent first, jib second. Why? Because, just like with Curry, we have the horses who can do all the little things already, which is Kirk's real value. So will Paxson get THESE guys (i.e. adding Billups [who was more talent than jib at THAT point], Rasheed, etc.), or will he go for more all around players that will just beat that "all-around" horse to death with redundant acquisitions.

Pax to me can forego "stars" if he gets the right guys. If he gets the wrong ones, this team is gonna be unwatchable. I swear if he writes Tyrus Thomas off, and we are in position to draft him and don't, and then we end up with a role player while Thomas flourishes, I'm done. That may or may not happen. If that does, then it's on him.
 
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