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Discussion Starter #1
....I HATE that statement. Why does he get so much credit for his teams success???

He's never won anything of any signaficance without a superstar guard...yet its the superstar guard who's discredited with the statement of "Yeah he's good but he plays with Shaq"

Pat Riley told the lakers they could have anyone they wanted for Shaq except Wade...Why was that??....I mean "Wherever Shaq goes the team wins" right?? :biggrin:

Maybe the statement should be "Where Shaq goes, there's a supperstar gaurd"

just imagine after playing with Shaq, Kobe was now play with Duncan or KG, and 5 yers now playing with Amare..would people give Kobe the Bulk of the credit and say "wherever Kobe goes the team wins" hell no... they would be saying what they've been saying... "he's overrated, he had the privlage of playing with another superstar"





just something to think about
 

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He get credit and rightfully so because of the impact he makes. He has been the dominant player in the league for the last 5-6 years with really only one competitor: Duncan. What defines impact: basically he changes what his team can do on offense and what teams have to do on defense to counter him more then any other player. Entire offseasons teams have spent trying to get players to neutralize Shaq over the last few years.

It's real easy to see in that many folks who would be called centers back in the 80's and 90's don't even like to be called centers anymore. For example, Duncan and Amare (both listed as PF's) are the same size as Hakeem who was the best center of the 90's. He's in some way redefined what we think of as a dominant center.

This argumetn plays into the next reason why Shaq is so unique: he is the dominant player at his position bar none. By having Shaq you instantly dominate the other team's opposing center:

After Shaq there is a big dropoff where you go down to Yao. While Yao plays Shaq well. Shaq still gets double teamed while Yao gets played by Shaq without help.
After that you go down to maybe Big Z and there really is no comparison

Now compare that to guys like Kobe. A great player but he's got Tmac, Wade, Lebron who are as good or reasonably close in production. After that you have numerous other guys like Ray Allen, VC, Paul Pierce who are not as good but not tremendously behind. No one would give it a second thought if these guys outplayed the first tier guys. It's tight in terms of talent.

So although Shaq might need a "superstar" guard. There much easier to come by then a Shaq. Also nobody and I repeat nobody has won a title without a second fiddle so this is a poor argument to make.
 

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Because Shaq is irreplaceable. He is the most dominant center in the NBA. Probably in the history of the NBA as well. the second fiddle is easier to replace because there are a lot of comparable players to those 'flash' players.
 

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t_blazer03' said:
just imagine after playing with Shaq, Kobe was now play with Duncan or KG, and 5 yers now playing with Amare..would people give Kobe the Bulk of the credit and say "wherever Kobe goes the team wins" hell no... they would be saying what they've been saying... "he's overrated, he had the privlage of playing with another superstar"
Uh, Tim Duncan is the best PF to ever play the game and KG's in the top 5. Neither Dwayne Wade nor Penny Hardaway manage to crack the top 10 PG/SG. Shaq gets a lot of credit because he deserves it.
 

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Easy answer, these guards became super guards because of Shaq. I'm sure these guards' fans will argue what their super guards can do without Shaq. But look at the team record after shaq left. That's quite big difference. And do you really think Wade would improve so significantly if Shaq didn't come to Heat?
 

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Wade has played better this season, but a lot of that comes from natural maturing after 1 season, but still, hes shooting better from outside, getting open looks, playing more aggressive defense and conserving energy, all come from Shaq's presence.
 

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Ice Nine said:
Uh, Tim Duncan is the best PF to ever play the game and KG's in the top 5. Neither Dwayne Wade nor Penny Hardaway manage to crack the top 10 PG/SG. Shaq gets a lot of credit because he deserves it.

Tim Duncan isthe best Pf of his time, but he ain't better then Malone. KG is not top 5 either.
 

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Drewbs said:
Wade has played better this season, but a lot of that comes from natural maturing after 1 season, but still, hes shooting better from outside, getting open looks, playing more aggressive defense and conserving energy, all come from Shaq's presence.
Vice versa, Shaq gets so many open looks because his superstar guard penetrates and dishes it off to him, and cuz the guard attracts so much attention around the perimeter.
 

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lempbizkit said:
Kobe and Penny have really torn it up without Shaq.
and Shaq's really torn it up without them, when he's by himself. Don't be such a hypocrite.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Raxel said:
But look at the team record after shaq left.
Im not arguing the fact that a team has a much better chance of winning a title with Shaq than without Shaq

Im saying some people treat penny and Kobe as if they were Derek Fisher and Damon Jones....just to there to hit a couple shots

If you replace Kobe Bryant with the equalivent of Michael Redd, do you think the Lakers would won 3 titles...I don't, they would've been a solid playoff team though

If you were to replace Shaq with Elton Brand the Lakers would not win a championship..but they would've been a playoff team yet "Wherever shaq goes his teams are conteders" that's bull****...wherever shaq goes there's another great player"

I say this with the understanding that you need more than one great player to win championships...to me kobe and penny were not shaq's sidekicks they were his partners..he needed them just as much as they needed him....without those guys he would be just another superstar player putting up huge numbers while not winning a title....this seems to be the exact same thing people are saying about Kobe now..a superstar player putting up huge numbers while not winning anything
 

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t_blazer03' said:
Im not arguing the fact that a team has a much better chance of winning a title with Shaq than without Shaq

Im saying some people treat penny and Kobe as if they were Derek Fisher and Damon Jones....just to there to hit a couple shots

If you replace Kobe Bryant with the equalivent of Michael Redd, do you think the Lakers would won 3 titles...I don't, they would've been a solid playoff team though

If you were to replace Shaq with Elton Brand the Lakers would not win a championship..but they would've been a playoff team yet "Wherever shaq goes his teams are conteders" that's bull****...wherever shaq goes there's another great player"

I say this with the understanding that you need more than one great player to win championships...to me kobe and penny were not shaq's sidekicks they were his partners..he needed them just as much as they needed him....without those guys he would be just another superstar player putting up huge numbers while not winning a title....this seems to be the exact same thing people are saying about Kobe now..a superstar player putting up huge numbers while not winning anything
The problem is no matter how hard for fans of Kobe or whoever to admit pariticularly in their 3 titles run Kobe does not equal Shaq.

Replace Shaq/Redd team with the same equivalent supporting The fact of the matter is a cast is would be ranked higher and would win more then Kobe/Brand team with equivalent supporting casts.

See my previous post for a more thorough explanation: simply put Shaq is a once in a generation player. Kobe/Wade/prime Penny were all terrific players and should get credit for their teams' achievement but they don't bring the same type of dominance to the SG/SF position that Shaq brings to the C position
 

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In shaq's first year in Orlando and first two years in LA he wasn't playing with a superstar off guard. Those teams were still very good.

Reference
Orlando's record before and after Shaq
1992-93 41 41 .500 (no Penny)
1991-92 21 61 .256

LA's record before and after Shaq
1997-98 61 21 .744 (15ppg Kobe)
1996-97 56 26 .683 (Rookie Kobe)
1995-96 53 29 .646
 

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Amplifier said:
In shaq's first year in Orlando and first two years in LA he wasn't playing with a superstar off guard. Those teams were still very good.

Reference
Orlando's record before and after Shaq
1992-93 41 41 .500 (no Penny)
1991-92 21 61 .256

LA's record before and after Shaq
1997-98 61 21 .744 (15ppg Kobe)
1996-97 56 26 .683 (Rookie Kobe)
1995-96 53 29 .646
That Lakers team also had Eddie Jones arguably in his prime.
 

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Shaq rightfully gets the brunt of the credit because he's possibly the most dominant ever. The same stuff things are said about Duncan and KG, and a lot of the great big men to an extent, that they are the straw that stirs the cup. In this era, it's the big man who throws off the defenses, collapsing coverage to him, which allows a lot more area for the guards. It's so true about Shaq because he automatically commands a double team by just being on the court, and he's an underrated passer at that.

It's not a very arguable fact. Wherever he's gone, he's won. He's such an anomaly, he makes players around him better so much more frequently than they've made him better.Shaq makes the 4 better because they have a lot less attention down low, and will be open for the lob or dunk. He makes the SFs and SGs better because they have less attention on them, and can operate at a higher level. He makes PGs better because it doesn't take a genius to throw to the 7-1, 330 pound man in the middle.

Not to discredit these guards he's played with, they are good in their own right, but deep down, they all would admit they need Shaq more than he needs them. Statements that are repeatedly said are usually always true. A cliche is a cliche for a reason.
 

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lol, i don't think the poster himself believes what he's saying. i remember coming to the boards for the first time we all had our bias because we're loyal supporters of our own team (some take it to the extreme). But with time after interacting with several different fans from different teams you become a fan of basketball in general, and even if you support your own team/favorite player, you still acknowledge the best players/best teams in the league and give them the credit they deserve.

i doubt anybody who's ever watched shaq play thinks that penny, kobe(heck, even eddie jones?), and dwyane wade are more instrumental in their teams success. and penny, kobe, and dwayne wade get the credit they deserve. penny was considered one of the best guards in the league, Kobe is still considered by many the #1SG, and dwayne wade has emerged as an all-star in just his second season. to say people treat penny and kobe like they were derek fisher and damon jones is ludicrous. did anybody ever all derek fisher the #1pg in the league? no.
 
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after Derek hit the 0.4 shot, I believed that he was the besk pg in the league. j/k
 

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my take on this...

Penny was well on his way to having his best year and had an unbelievable first round playoff series the year after shaq left. unfortunately injuries ultimately derailed him.

Kobe's game hasnt fallen off much, but obviously his team has (which was to be expected)

ive been saying for a while now that Wade has been carrying miami this year. Shaq will get most of the MVP consideration, but i think relatively speaking, miami would have a similar record without wade than they'd have without shaq.

is it a cooincidence that shaq makes a huge impact wherever he plays? nope. he along with duncan are the only players who by themselves make any team a playoff contender. but as shaq has gotten older he's had to rely more and more on the star guard. this will be the third straight year where he wont lead his team in scoring. but it goes to show you there is no substitute for a true franchise 7 foot center, whereas guards come and go.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
_Dre_ said:
Shaq rightfully gets the brunt of the credit because he's possibly the most dominant ever. The same stuff things are said about Duncan and KG, and a lot of the great big men to an extent, that they are the straw that stirs the cup. In this era, it's the big man who throws off the defenses, collapsing coverage to him, which allows a lot more area for the guards. It's so true about Shaq because he automatically commands a double team by just being on the court, and he's an underrated passer at that.

It's not a very arguable fact. Wherever he's gone, he's won. He's such an anomaly, he makes players around him better so much more frequently than they've made him better.Shaq makes the 4 better because they have a lot less attention down low, and will be open for the lob or dunk. He makes the SFs and SGs better because they have less attention on them, and can operate at a higher level. He makes PGs better because it doesn't take a genius to throw to the 7-1, 330 pound man in the middle.

Not to discredit these guards he's played with, they are good in their own right, but deep down, they all would admit they need Shaq more than he needs them. Statements that are repeatedly said are usually always true. A cliche is a cliche for a reason.
I basically agree with everything you posted........I just feel people go out of their way to show how much his "sidekicks" need him I repeat he needs them as much as they need him
Replace Shaq/Redd team with the same equivalent supporting The fact of the matter is a cast is would be ranked higher and would win more then Kobe/Brand team with equivalent supporting casts.
I don't doubt for a second that if Shaq played with a lesser peremiter player and Kobe played with a lesser post player, Shaq's team would win more...but guess what neither wins a title...this is whyhe needs them just as much as they need him

truth be told its not that I love Kobe and hate Shaq...as a matter of fact used to dislike Kobe with a passion...it's just that he's caught so much hate lately, all the while Shaq can do no wrong
 
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