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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Over the last 10 games, Hinrich and Barbosa have played comparable minutes in starting roles for their respective teams. Kirk is in the midst of the longest season he's ever played and is logging his minutes on tired legs (ie, he's already hit the wall), while Barbosa has had the luxury of starting off at a slower pace, so said wall is not a factor in his performance.

Regardless, here are each player's stats over the last 10 games:

Hinrich: 13.5 ppg, 5.2 apg, 3.7 rpg, 1.3 spg, 45% 3PT, 36.6 mpg.

Barbosa: 8.8 ppg, 3.3 apg, 1.9 rpg, 1.4 spg, 34% 3PT, 30.2 mpg.

Hinrich dominates the stat line between the two, just like he has all season. I've asked you this before, but you haven't answered. Why are you so certain the Bulls only got the fourth or fifth best point guard in this year's draft?
 

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4th or 5th best PG?!? Hinrich is the best point guard in the draft. Wade and Lebron are off guards. TJ Ford is 2nd. All those Steve Blake is better type arguments are nonsense.

Hinrich is the 3rd or 4th best PLAYER for any position out of this draft.
 

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I know I'm not arenas, but...

TJ Ford is 7.7 ppg, 6.5 apg, 2.7 rpg, .8 spg, 33% from the arc in only 26.0 mpg. The caveat is that Ford is never going to be a huge scorer, and his team is 6-4 over that stretch, and it's not bad for one of his worst stretches in the season, so i dunno...

Dwyane Wade is 16.3 ppg, 4.6 apg, 3.6 rpg, 1.2 spg, 66% from the arc in 35.8 mpg. And wow, whaddya know... his team is also 6-4 over the stretch. And HIS team is the HEAT. And yes, he DOES start at point guard there.

Lebron James? Do I even need to... that's just embarassing. Even in the last games he played before the McInnis trade, when he was still running the point.. sheesh. And by the way, the Cavs are 6-4 over the last 10 games as well. Wow.

I can see why Hinrich is the 4th best point guard in this draft. I don't think that's a bad thing to say, though. This draft is filled with really explosive point guards. Even Ford is doing really well over the whole season, and he's also a big reason why the Bucks are actually winning instead of floundering near the bottom like everyone and their mother expected him to.

Barbosa might belong up there too, although he hasn't done a lot to surpass Hinrich.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
I know I'm not arenas, but...

TJ Ford is 7.7 ppg, 6.5 apg, 2.7 rpg, .8 spg, 33% from the arc in only 26.0 mpg. The caveat is that Ford is never going to be a huge scorer, and his team is 6-4 over that stretch, and it's not bad for one of his worst stretches in the season, so i dunno...

Dwyane Wade is 16.3 ppg, 4.6 apg, 3.6 rpg, 66% from the arc in 35.8 mpg. And wow, whaddya know... his team is also 6-4 over the stretch. And HIS team is the HEAT. And yes, he DOES start at point guard there.

Lebron James? Do I even need to... that's just embarassing. Even in the last games he played before the McInnis trade, when he was still running the point.. sheesh. And by the way, the Cavs are 6-4 over the last 10 games as well. Wow.

I can see why Hinrich is the 4th best point guard in this draft. I don't think that's a bad thing to say, though. This draft is filled with really explosive point guards. Even Ford is doing really well over the whole season, and he's also a big reason why the Bucks are actually winning instead of floundering near the bottom like everyone and their mother expected him to.

Barbosa might belong up there too, although he hasn't done a lot to surpass Hinrich.
Wade and Lebron are not PGs. Fords numbers arent better than Hinrichs, and Ford will probably end up being a Boykins type player who will come off the bench because hes too much of a defensive liability to get heavy minutes.
 

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Wade PLAYS the point guard, even if you don't think his game is that of a point. He scores like a madman, but he creates a lot for his teammates and he handles the ball most of the time. Odom plays PF, Caron and EJ play the swings, and Wade is at the point. If he's not a REAL PG, fine, but that's his position.

Ford is going to get a LOT better. He's a better ball-handler than Hinrich, and if anything, HE'S more the pure point than Hinrich is. Hinrich is a hot shooter, and can take minutes at off-guard much better than Ford ever could.

Lebron isn't a point yet but I think he's going to take that role. Silas' main concern with James running the point was that it was too much too quickly, not that it's not the best position for Lebron to play. True, now that he has a competent guy like McInnis to run it, James has been rejuvenated and the team's started to win, but Lebron will be back at the point guard position again. That kind of playmaking ability is just too much talent.

Would you rather have a guy like McInnis (not a great scorer, an efficient playmaker, decent defender) running with James, or would you rather have James and then a very decent scorer and decent defender at SG, like Dajuan Wagner (whose recent return also coincides with the Cavs recent winnings)?

James IS a point guard, AND he's a shooting guard. He's NOT a combo guard.

And Hinrich is next, in my opinion. He is smart, savvy, quick, and a good defender, but he's not as quick or as good a handler as TJ, nor is he as explosive or athletic as Wade, nor is he really anything resembling James. Hinrich is going to be a great point guard, but he wasn't the best or even second-best PG in this year's draft. That just speaks to the strength of this year's PG; it's no slight to Hinrich at all!
 

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Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
Wade PLAYS the point guard, even if you don't think his game is that of a point. He scores like a madman, but he creates a lot for his teammates and he handles the ball most of the time. Odom plays PF, Caron and EJ play the swings, and Wade is at the point. If he's not a REAL PG, fine, but that's his position.
Wade may be a better player than Hinrich, but not a better point guard even if he plays that as his position technically. Theres a difference.
 

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Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!


Wade may be a better player than Hinrich, but not a better point guard even if he plays that as his position technically. Theres a difference.
My original remarks weren't a knock on Kirk...

I believe someone posted a list of PGs taken in the first round, and I said out of that list Kirk was like the 4th best.

I think using stats to compare is not always a good way to judge

Ford is the starting PG on a potential playoff team. He's not a scorer, is not needed to score, what they do need him to do, he does very well.

Wade does play the point, but not full time and that's why Alston is there so he can slide to the 2.

He does a really good job of attacking the basket and either scoring himself or getting someone else an easier basket or open look from the outside.

Barbosa I think is a nice player, and he just now has started to get fulltime to play PG...

I originally did not say Barbosa was better than Kirk...

I was saying Kirk was behind Lebron, Wade, and T.J. Ford, making him the 4th best PG that came out of that first round...
 

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If we're going to rank point guards, we look at which point guard is the best player, not at which point guard is the best point guard. But that's just a difference of opinion.

But even if we look at Wade, we can say that he IS the point guard because he runs a point guard's game. He is the primary ball-handler. He sets up the offense and initiates it. He creates offense for his teammates, even if it's not always resulting in a direct assist. That IS what a point guard does. Just because he doesn't look to only pass the ball, it doesn't make him a bad point guard.

For instance, let's say it was a fact that Target has better quality clothes than the Old Navy. Old Navy has pretty decent clothes, and they only sell clothes, while Target sells all sorts of crap. Yet, although Target does sell all sorts of stuff and functions in a lot of other ways, it doesn't mean that Target is still not a better clothes store than Old Navy, right?

Similarly, Lebron has all the better qualities of a point guard than Hinrich. And I would argue that Wade may, as well. Not "pure basketball IQ", but in running his team and being the floor general, setting up the offense and initiating plays for his team to be successful, I think he's doing a fantasic job. Yes, he does happen to score a ton of points too, but a good point guard will get the ball to the person who can score the best, and on many occasions it happens to be him. He still made the right PG decision, no?

Maybe Ford is not quite as good a PG as Hinrich, but most people are still very high on him. He took a team that was supposed to get a lottery pick and helped them become a playoff-contender. One might look at last year's team and this year's, and say that TJ Ford, as far as adding new pieces, is the ENTIRE rebuilding project in himself. He's damn good, and will at least rival Hinrich, if not surpass him. He does need to improve the defense, but Boykins? He's not Boykins.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
For instance, let's say it was a fact that Target has better quality clothes than the Old Navy. Old Navy has pretty decent clothes, and they only sell clothes, while Target sells all sorts of crap. Yet, although Target does sell all sorts of stuff and functions in a lot of other ways, it doesn't mean that Target is still not a better clothes store than Old Navy, right?
Using this comparison, my opinion would be that Wade is the Target store that has decent clothes, but sells all sorts of stuff. While Hinrich is the Old Navy that has only clothes, but those clothes are better quality than Targets.

I think Hinrich has better skills at the point guard, and Wade is the better overall player since he has a lot of 2guard skills.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!

I originally did not say Barbosa was better than Kirk...

I was saying Kirk was behind Lebron, Wade, and T.J. Ford, making him the 4th best PG that came out of that first round...
Complete and utter B.S.

"We drafted the 5th best PG out of that group...

Hinrich will only be better than Ridnour and Blake."


I only searched for a couple minutes:

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=876860#post876860

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=876914#post876914

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=876934#post876934

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=881367#post881367

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=898190#post898190

Seriously, what is it about certain people on this board making stuff up and/or manipulating stats? I'll ask again: does the Haterade taste good?
 

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For the record ..

I think Kirk will be the best point guard from this draft followed very closely by Luke Ridnour and then TJ Ford and then Barbosa ... all 4 will be high quality point guards though

Ford is more ahead of Ridnour right now but Ridnour is a nice nice player .. you can just see the quality in him .. well I can at least

As he matures a bit .. within 2 - 3 years ... he'll be the goods
 

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And speaking of Luke Ridnour and given that Pax wants this team to reflect Scott Skiles...

Is it just me or does Luke Ridnour look like Scott Skiles's lovechild playing dress up with a wig ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Originally posted by <b>F.Jerzy</b>!

Is it just me or does Luke Ridnour look like Scott Skiles's lovechild playing dress up with a wig ?
I just formed the image of a near-bald Luke Ridnour in my head, and guess what? I agree with you.

5 star observation.
 

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Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!


Complete and utter B.S.

"We drafted the 5th best PG out of that group...

Hinrich will only be better than Ridnour and Blake."


I only searched for a couple minutes:

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=876860#post876860

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=876914#post876914

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=876934#post876934

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=881367#post881367

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=898190#post898190

Seriously, what is it about certain people on this board making stuff up and/or manipulating stats? I'll ask again: does the Haterade taste good?
What haterade?

When did I manipulate stats?

I hardly ever use stats in an argument, because honestly I don't care about looking them most of the time.

I think one of my posts that included stats was about how Jamal has improved in PPG, RPG, and APG every year since he's been in the league.

To be honest, what is there to hate on Kirk about?

I call hatin when Jamal has a good game and people rather keep their mouths shut and not acknowledge it, waiting for him to make a turnover or miss a 3 to start yelling again.

Better yet, I call hatin when I hear crap about Jamal making a play of the year type play, then saying the man he was guarding was stroking a 3 as Jamal was celebrating...

What kind of Paul Bunyan tale is that?

I don't hate on Kirk, but I've said all along I'm not going to jump on the build the team around Kirk, Kirk is the PG of the future bandwagon.

He does a lot of good things, but when it comes down it, Wade, Bron, T.J. and possibly Barbosa, and Ridnour will end up being better players.

I think Hinrich has exceeded expectations and that's why everyone is on his love train....

Then again there weren't extremely high expectations of Kirk, yet TC, EC, and JC are supposed to lead us to a title still being young themselves and not being properly coached?

Seriously don't call me out on hatin anyone because I don't...

There are a lot of people who snap as soon as you say anything "bad" about Kirk, and turn any Kirk or Jamal issue into a Kirk vs. Jamal issue...

I'm not the only one who notices this...

I did say what I said, and I'll stand by it, I didn't remember including Barbosa, but I did, I like what I see from him, and Kirk just might be better now, but we'll see in a year or 2.

Honestly, how much better do you guys expect Kirk to get?

I think there are definitely guys who I would bet their games grow more than Kirk's...
 

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arenas you are a hater clear and simple.

I say kirk is the best true rookie pg in the draft. lebron only played PG because wagner was out and they had no other suitable option. Since the cavs have acquired McInnis, lebron has slid over to the 2.

Yes, Wade is playing the point and doing a good job, however call my crazy, but when Eddie Jones is no longer with the team Wade will move to the 2. But for argument sakes, fine wade is a 1.

im a huge tj ford fan. I go to the bradley center a lot and get to see him play. Comparing him to kirk is just plain silly. First of all, TJ doesnt play the fraction of the defense that kirk does. Damon jones is often brought in to play defense when TJ is struggling. TJ is not a threat to shoot the ball from the outside. he will get lots of open looks thanks to teams doubling on Redd, but TJ just doesnt have the shot yet. This is not taking anything away from TJ who is a hell of a player and has a bright future. He does so many good things out there like running a fast break to perfection, moving the ball around, exploiting his matchup to pressure the defense.

Depending on how you look at it kirk is the #1 or 2 rookie pg out there. Let's not forget, kirk will only get BETTER!!!!!!!!
 

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i dont get this pure pg stuff with hinrich. he isn't one he's a combo or tweener or whatever people are calling it now as usually put it simply a guard because he does not have all of the requisite skills for the position and the proof is in two things , one he is occasionally pretty careless with the ball and number two he is pretty bad handling the ball against pressure.

i dont know how you all grew up but when i was a kid, the kid who got stripped too much,or got his handle picked too much couldn't run pg no matter how unselfish he was with the ball. There are players in the draft like ridnour and ford who are pure pg's and there are players like wade and hinrich who are players who have the size and skills to play both guard spots.Wade to me isn't a true pg because he lacks the natural mentality to set people up which is different from being shoot 1st stephon marbury is more of a pure pg than anyone in the last draft but he is a shoot 1st player that can and will set people up just as well as he scores.the need for a pure pg is overrated anyway wade and kirk were drafted ahead of the "pure point guards" in luke an TJ because more than anything else teams need talent, and they were the most talented guys who can play pg in the draft.
 

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I think you touched on something that I see in regards to the kid who gets stripped too much and etc...

I see Kirk when he's pressured often turn the ball over, and it seems to take him forever to make something happen with the ball.

Guys like Jamal, Wade, Ford, can pretty much take a dribble or 2 and get by anyone guarding them and get to the basket which more often than not leads to someone getting an easy layup/dunk.

Kirk just doesn't seem to be able to get around anyone.

As far as Remlover goes, if you believe im a hater, then you feel free to do so, considering that you don't really know me, and I don't think very familiar with my posts, your opinion to me means about as much as what goes down the toilet on a daily basis.

Most of you guys don't even know what a "hater" is...you just use the word to fit anyone who doesn't kiss (fill in person's) butt...
 

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Wade very really plays a traditional PG and rearly even brings the ball up or plays the point. Rafer Alston plays a lot of point and odom and jones run the offensive. James is not playing PG and they traded for miginnes to get him off the point and james has played much better at SG which is his natural position. Ford is a fine young player but no jump shot and plays awful D.

Sorry but hinrich is the best pg of the draft. Unless 2 plus 2 equals 5 then whatever.

david
 

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Im someone who doesnt rely on stats for my arguments, but in this case im breaking out the stats.

kirk averages 34mpg and gets 2.8 TO's a game.

TJ ford-27mpg...2.6TO's a game
Luke Ridnour-15mpg-1.3 TOa game.
Wade=36mpg -3 To's a game.

seems like all these rookies have problems "handling the ball".

Arenas, i migiht not know the defintion of being a "hater" but like pornography, i know it when i see it.
 

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Originally posted by <b>remlover</b>!
Arenas, i migiht not know the defintion of being a "hater" but like pornography, i know it when i see it.
It's always nice to start your day with a good laugh...

Your post makes plenty of sense...

What you have proven is that you know nothing, especially about me and my posts...

I can feel a certain way because that's the way I choose to feel, are people haters because they aren't fans of someone's game?

I want Kirk to do well, it doesn't matter if I feel he's the best PG, or the worst, I still want him to do well, and I actually acknowledge when he does do well.

The main problem I have (especially here) is when you get on one guy, but not the other. To say oh Jamal had a terrible game defensively against Ray Allen, but not comment on how Luke Ridnour was doing whatever he wanted to on Kirk it's not hating, but its not fair to turn the cheek on one and not the other.

You can insert different names in there, that is just one example that comes to mind.

Anyway, just like your porno, you can see THIS...

This is the last time I respond to you regarding one of your opinions, thoughts, or whatever...

I have no respect for anyone who judges someone unfairly and incorrectly.
 
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