Professional and College Basketball Forums banner

81 - 100 of 107 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
185 Posts
You know, we have an institution that was designed for this. It’s called law enforcement, campus police, and the judicial system. If it isn’t working fix that.

To expect an athletic department, even a university administration to be responsible for this is a recipe for failure. You are all barking up the wrong tree. It should be really simple, if anything is reported, immediately pass all info to law enforcement. Laws were likely broken here, we have a system for this, use it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
190 Posts
You know, we have an institution that was designed for this. It’s called law enforcement, campus police, and the judicial system. If it isn’t working fix that.

To expect an athletic department, even a university administration to be responsible for this is a recipe for failure. You are all barking up the wrong tree. It should be really simple, if anything is reported, immediately pass all info to law enforcement. Laws were likely broken here, we have a system for this, use it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is what I believe. Athletic Department involvement and NCAA involvement and even title IX seem to serve as buffers between alleged criminals and the law.

School teachers are legally bound to report suspicion of child abuse. Why isn't UVM legally or ethically bound to report suspicion of rape?

Am I missing a victims rights consideration?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
This is what I believe. Athletic Department involvement and NCAA involvement and even title IX seem to serve as buffers between alleged criminals and the law.

School teachers are legally bound to report suspicion of child abuse. Why isn't UVM legally or ethically bound to report suspicion of rape?

Am I missing a victims rights consideration?
Not that simple. Those involved are adults, not children, where suspicions of child abuse and neglect must be reported by certain professionals to Vermont Department for Children and Families (NOT the police). Absent a contractual or some other legally-binding duty to report suspicions of sexual misconduct, teachers or others who work for the university would have the same obligation of any of the rest of us in society. The norm, sadly, is that many of us choose not to get involved if we hear of possible abuse. And then the reality is law enforcement is largely bound by the need for meat on the bones of allegations...details. Those almost always in cases of sexual abuse/harassment must come from what is the only source: the alleged victim.

All that aside, legit questions persist about the existing structures at UVM re how such concerns are addressed and how, specifically, were the particular concerns here dealt with. As I have pointed out previously, the need to maintain confidentiality about such matters (to protect the victim and accused) is the NORM, absent permission being granted by those parties to disclose details. How much info is actually made public is also dependent on how insulated, paranoid the institution is.

Bottom line, urging as full disclosure as possible by UVM’s administration makes sense to me, but we have to be realistic that the general public may not get to hear the details.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
205 Posts
Thankfully a bunch of UVM track athletes took a stand and made some powerful statements this weekend. I’m sure behind closed doors a lot of other athletes/teams have done something similar.

If Schulman isn’t fired, a lot of people on campus and in the community are going to very mad.

It really also seems like UVMMBB as a “culture” problem. If even a fraction of those posts online are true, a lot needs to change. As much as we love Becker for the success he’s brought/continued, if he’s complicit or an enabler in any of this, he’s got to go as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,230 Posts
Thankfully a bunch of UVM track athletes took a stand and made some powerful statements this weekend. I’m sure behind closed doors a lot of other athletes/teams have done something similar.

If Schulman isn’t fired, a lot of people on campus and in the community are going to very mad.

It really also seems like UVMMBB as a “culture” problem. If even a fraction of those posts online are true, a lot needs to change. As much as we love Becker for the success he’s brought/continued, if he’s complicit or an enabler in any of this, he’s got to go as well.
For those who didn't see it appears like they did it at the AE championships and blacked out Vermont on their uniforms:




Schulman should be fired, I think that much is certain. I saw that he finally responded to the Free Press questions with nothing of substance. I understand that is the goal to say nothing and deflect but it takes quite a big level of incompetence to make two statements that are just poorly written and frankly dismissive and cold-hearted for something this serious.

However, getting Schulman fired will take Garimella to feel he has to make the change and every indication is that he doesn't, but then the board. But go ahead and look at the board. Ed Pagano, former basketball player. Frank Cioffi of "Cioffi Endowed Men's Basketball Coach" family (he is Robert's brother). Not to mention former board members who still have plenty of sway at the school like Ian Boyce and Schulman are friends from their hockey playing days. Throw in some donors? Tarrants love Schulman. Jerry and Jeff were teammates. Then a bunch of the other middling donors who give up to tens of thousands to the athletic department, they're not going to do a thing either; they believe the company line that all this is made up, or again feel the little taste of "life on the inside" and getting to hang out with coaches and admins is more important to them than the safety of athletes or the reputation of the department. It's why it's important for anyone who feels there needs to be major changes in the department to not let up. UVM trustee members and their contact info isn't hard to find on google.

It's a good thing the track team did what it did. I'm sure others feel the same way privately, but the track team is also the one sport that has nothing to lose for their form of protest. It's the sport that gets shit on the most by the school and Schulman directly. Unfortunately for many, speaking out could mean the loss of their spots on the team, or at least a real fear of retribution by athletic administrators.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
What did you want Schulman to say? Schulman is not allowed to say anything other than vague statements. Why would Schulman be fired? Did he know about any of this? Did he do what was right per the rule books. i.e. go to title 9 office? Every school has protocol. Was the protocol followed? If yes, why fire him? If not, fire him ASAP... If all these stories are true than every person on campus is complicit and the institution needs to be shut down.

Just to be clear this track athlete is not a hero. He did not have to black out the vermont name or even run. My question is if everyone on campus knew about this culture why now black out the name? Why not last year, or the year before, or the year before that?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,750 Posts
You know, we have an institution that was designed for this. It’s called law enforcement, campus police, and the judicial system. If it isn’t working fix that.

To expect an athletic department, even a university administration to be responsible for this is a recipe for failure. You are all barking up the wrong tree. It should be really simple, if anything is reported, immediately pass all info to law enforcement. Laws were likely broken here, we have a system for this, use it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Speaking as a lawyer, the judicial system is not great at determining if a crime was committed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
What did you want Schulman to say? Schulman is not allowed to say anything other than vague statements. Why would Schulman be fired? Did he know about any of this? Did he do what was right per the rule books. i.e. go to title 9 office? Every school has protocol. Was the protocol followed? If yes, why fire him? If not, fire him ASAP... If all these stories are true than every person on campus is complicit and the institution needs to be shut down.

Just to be clear this track athlete is not a hero. He did not have to black out the vermont name or even run. My question is if everyone on campus knew about this culture why now black out the name? Why not last year, or the year before, or the year before that?
I couldn’t agree more. There is SO much we don’t know. Screaming from the top of the trees for someone’s head to roll in the absence of reliable information will do little in the interests of justice. Insisting on a clearer statement from the UVM president about the proper protocols, a general statement about what is now being done regarding allegations, if litigation precludes more transparency.... something more would serve the university’s interests well and is long overdue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,513 Posts
...

Just to be clear this track athlete is not a hero. He did not have to black out the vermont name or even run. My question is if everyone on campus knew about this culture why now black out the name? Why not last year, or the year before, or the year before that?
I have to agree that what the track team did is not heroic. If anything it is unprincipled and self-serving. When you allow UVM to pay for your transportation and lodging at the meet and for your coaching all season -- well then, you're part of the athletic department.

Choose to skip what might be the final meet of your career because you no longer want to represent the university -- those are some real principles. Let the school pay your way, then black out their name on the uniform and post it on social media -- that's a "look at me!" move, not a principled one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter · #90 ·
I have to agree that what the track team did is not heroic. If anything it is unprincipled and self-serving. When you allow UVM to pay for your transportation and lodging at the meet and for your coaching all season -- well then, you're part of the athletic department.

Choose to skip what might be the final meet of your career because you no longer want to represent the university -- those are some real principles. Let the school pay your way, then black out their name on the uniform and post it on social media -- that's a "look at me!" move, not a principled one.
The thing is, everything I’ve heard from survivors connected to the school is how much they appreciated the statements from the track and field athletes. Rape survivors often feel completely alone and I’ve heard from many who have expressed gratitude for this (and for the walkouts and protests), because for the first time they feel like people are listening to them and starting to speak up for them. They’ve expressed feeling ignored, unheard and disrespected by the athletic department, school and men’s basketball program.

I question exactly how much anyone on here bashing the track and field athletes actually cares about sexual assault/rape at all, and what, if any, actionable steps they feel like should be done (other than apparently for students and student athletes to shut up and keep this issue out of sight and out of mind).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
The thing is, everything I’ve heard from survivors connected to the school is how much they appreciated the statements from the track and field athletes. Rape survivors often feel completely alone and I’ve heard from many who have expressed gratitude for this (and for the walkouts and protests), because for the first time they feel like people are listening to them and starting to speak up for them. They’ve expressed feeling ignored, unheard and disrespected by the athletic department, school and men’s basketball program.

I question exactly how much anyone on here bashing the track and field athletes actually cares about sexual assault/rape at all, and what, if any, actionable steps they feel like should be done (other than apparently for students and student athletes to shut up and keep this issue out of sight and out of mind).
I will admit I did not think about it from this point of view. You are right. I can see how this would help the victims feel better that people are finally starting to give it the attention it deserves.

However I will still ask why now? The answer is is because it is the popular thing to do now. The season is over now. There are no more races to run now. There is nothing at risk now. That is why. When it wasn’t popular they remained silent. When the entire season was ahead of the track team there was no blacking out the names on jerseys. Kendall ware made everyone outside of Vermont aware of this last year. I am pretty sure track season started after that. Through all the meets they stayed silent.

The victims don’t need them now. More people know. The entire country knows. The victims needed a voice before when no one cared and no one knew. Hell speaking up then could have potentially saved a victim and yet there was silence.

Someone should ask them why they remained silent for so long when people were at risk.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter · #92 ·
I will admit I did not think about it from this point of view. You are right. I can see how this would help the victims feel better that people are finally starting to give it the attention it deserves.

However I will still ask why now? The answer is is because it is the popular thing to do now. The season is over now. There are no more races to run now. There is nothing at risk now. That is why. When it wasn’t popular they remained silent. When the entire season was ahead of the track team there was no blacking out the names on jerseys. Kendall ware made everyone outside of Vermont aware of this last year. I am pretty sure track season started after that. Through all the meets they stayed silent.

The victims don’t need them now. More people know. The entire country knows. The victims needed a voice before when no one cared and no one knew. Hell speaking up then could have potentially saved a victim and yet there was silence.

Someone should ask them why they remained silent for so long when people were at risk.
The fact is though that society as a whole doesn’t care about survivors, doesn’t care about rape as an epidemic — which rape sadly is for women (the stars are staggering).

You’re shining your light on people speaking up and saying this is wrong, you should be scrutinizing the people who are still staying silent. Change occurs when people speak up, and while speaking up now doesn’t do anything for survivors who have already endured a sexual assault, it can help change the future culture so this doesn’t keep happening.
You seem to be casting a much more negative light on athletes who used their position as a platform to speak out than those who continue to remain silent...

Also, I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “Kendall Ware made everyone outside of Vermont aware last year.” By and large no one knew or still knows about Kendall Ware — it wasn’t covered by national media at all, only the local Vermont paper. The men’s basketball boosters and alums closEd ranks around the program and largely remained silent; Becker, Schulman and the president up there didn’t feel any heat until recently. People need to keep the pressure up to have real action and change and transparency. What I saw until recently was people by and large ignoring Kendall Ware or casting doubt on her.

And I’m not sure what you mean by protesting like this became “popular” this is the first active protest like this I can think of by America East athletes on anything where they really went out in a limb and made a statement where they faced possible scrutiny and scorn for it. We need more athletes doing this if their university or athletic department is involved in something awful.

Significant research, study and analysis has shown that somewhere are 5% of rape accusations are false accusations where someone makes them up. Five percent. Even if you want to go with the data on the far fringes the most inflated percentage you’ll find out there is 10% from reputable research. Think about that and think about the amount of accusations that have come out towards the athletic department and school as a whole recently. There’s no way to explain it away, or reference Duke Lacrosse or any other straw man to try and deflect attention away from the fact that Vermont basketball is now looking like Baylor Football in terms of an out of control program with no oversight or control from the coaches and administration (and from everything I hear this is just the tip of the iceberg and it’s going to get a lot worse) and the school as a whole appears to be rotten when it comes to protecting coed students.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
The fact is though that society as a whole doesn’t care about survivors, doesn’t care about rape as an epidemic — which rape sadly is for women (the stars are staggering).

You’re shining your light on people speaking up and saying this is wrong, you should be scrutinizing the people who are still staying silent. Change occurs when people speak up, and while speaking up now doesn’t do anything for survivors who have already endured a sexual assault, it can help change the future culture so this doesn’t keep happening.
You seem to be casting a much more negative light on athletes who used their position as a platform to speak out than those who continue to remain silent...

Also, I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “Kendall Ware made everyone outside of Vermont aware last year.” By and large no one knew or still knows about Kendall Ware — it wasn’t covered by national media at all, only the local Vermont paper. The men’s basketball boosters and alums closEd ranks around the program and largely remained silent; Becker, Schulman and the president up there didn’t feel any heat until recently. People need to keep the pressure up to have real action and change and transparency. What I saw until recently was people by and large ignoring Kendall Ware or casting doubt on her.

And I’m not sure what you mean by protesting like this became “popular” this is the first active protest like this I can think of by America East athletes on anything where they really went out in a limb and made a statement where they faced possible scrutiny and scorn for it. We need more athletes doing this if their university or athletic department is involved in something awful.

Significant research, study and analysis has shown that somewhere are 5% of rape accusations are false accusations where someone makes them up. Five percent. Even if you want to go with the data on the far fringes the most inflated percentage you’ll find out there is 10% from reputable research. Think about that and think about the amount of accusations that have come out towards the athletic department and school as a whole recently. There’s no way to explain it away, or reference Duke Lacrosse or any other straw man to try and deflect attention away from the fact that Vermont basketball is now looking like Baylor Football in terms of an out of control program with no oversight or control from the coaches and administration (and from everything I hear this is just the tip of the iceberg and it’s going to get a lot worse) and the school as a whole appears to be rotten when it comes to protecting coed students.

I am shining a light on frauds. People who knew about this and said nothing until there is nothing to risk is a fraud. That’s it. He had every opportunity to do this the whole season and did mot until his life would not be affected. I don’t care about the runner one bit but don’t make him a hero. He isn’t.

On April 29 2020 espn ran the headline “7 women sue NCAA for failure to protect in sexual assault.” That is a big deal. ESPN is national news and arguably the most well known sports network in the world. Everyone who cares or wanted to care knew about something was going on. It was September that ware officially came out as being the swimmer. I agree people did ignore her including all the students now protesting. That is my point. It was known and no one did a thing until recently. I guess it is better to be late to a party than not showing up at all.

By “popular” I mean embraced by large amounts of people. It is now popular so there is less risk in making a stand. Hence why everyone knew about these terrible things but no one did a thing. Hell a lot of these student probably were at the parties and continued to party with these guys.

I am also not suggesting anyone is lying however people have lied in the past. Duke, sacred heart, etc… may be one offs but they still happen. Based on that and other things a full investigation needs to happen to see what happened and what went wrong. As much as we want this to be black and white it isn’t. I know nothing about schulman but becker by all accounts is a great guy. That being said he should be given the right to a fair investigation before before we say he covered up the raping of women. Which is a pretty horrible thing to say about anyone. What did they know, when did they know it, what was the school’s policy, was the policy followed are among the questions that I would like to know. As far as schulman and becker goes on public statements there is not much they can say other than blanket bland statements. They are in the middle of a lawsuit and can’t give private information about student athletes…

Baylor is different as apparently everyone knew about these issues at Baylor. That is not the case in Vermont.

Again just to be clear if these two guys and others covered up rape F*CK them and put them in jail. I just think it is important we make sure they did it….
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter · #94 ·
I am shining a light on frauds. People who knew about this and said nothing until there is nothing to risk is a fraud. That’s it. He had every opportunity to do this the whole season and did mot until his life would not be affected. I don’t care about the runner one bit but don’t make him a hero. He isn’t.

On April 29 2020 espn ran the headline “7 women sue NCAA for failure to protect in sexual assault.” That is a big deal. ESPN is national news and arguably the most well known sports network in the world. Everyone who cares or wanted to care knew about something was going on. It was September that ware officially came out as being the swimmer. I agree people did ignore her including all the students now protesting. That is my point. It was known and no one did a thing until recently. I guess it is better to be late to a party than not showing up at all.

By “popular” I mean embraced by large amounts of people. It is now popular so there is less risk in making a stand. Hence why everyone knew about these terrible things but no one did a thing. Hell a lot of these student probably were at the parties and continued to party with these guys.

I am also not suggesting anyone is lying however people have lied in the past. Duke, sacred heart, etc… may be one offs but they still happen. Based on that and other things a full investigation needs to happen to see what happened and what went wrong. As much as we want this to be black and white it isn’t. I know nothing about schulman but becker by all accounts is a great guy. That being said he should be given the right to a fair investigation before before we say he covered up the raping of women. Which is a pretty horrible thing to say about anyone. What did they know, when did they know it, what was the school’s policy, was the policy followed are among the questions that I would like to know. As far as schulman and becker goes on public statements there is not much they can say other than blanket bland statements. They are in the middle of a lawsuit and can’t give private information about student athletes…

Baylor is different as apparently everyone knew about these issues at Baylor. That is not the case in Vermont.

Again just to be clear if these two guys and others covered up rape F*CK them and put them in jail. I just think it is important we make sure they did it….
In one place you say everyone at Vermont knew about the rapes all along so the track and field athletes are lying and are frauds, and in another place you say Vermont is different than Baylor because everyone knew at Baylor and not everyone knew at Vermont... which is it exactly?

Your user name would indicate you’re a Binghamton fan, if that’s the case I question how in the loop you are to be able to make such a definitive assessment that Vermont is different than Baylor...

Once again the Vermont Track and Field athletes spoke up, in a big way, and they seem to be the only athletes in America East history who have taken a real stand on an issue like this given there platform. Yes, it would have been better if they’d done something sooner, but you can’t say the reasons why — it seems like things have finally reached a boiling point among students in Burlington and it’s better to speak out now than never (which seems like you’re stance is they should just stay silent since they didn’t speak up last year). Maybe they have gotten to know survivors; maybe people they care about have made disclosures which opened their eyes... There are a host of reasons why they might have stayed silent.

Word is students may do something at graduation as a protest, are you going to look down on that? Because everyone is in support of Hartford students protesting dropping down to DIII at graduation and rape seems a little more tragic in the grand scheme of things...

Lastly, yes, there are people who lie about rape just as there are people who lie about all manner of things: but statistically those Liars are far and away outliers when it comes to reported rapes. Do you question anyone who reports any crime? Is that the gut response if someone says they were car jacked? Their house was broken into?

I mean people lie about getting diagnosed with cancer, should we treat everyone who disclosed a cancer diagnoses with skepticism?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
In one place you say everyone at Vermont knew about the rapes all along so the track and field athletes are lying and are frauds, and in another place you say Vermont is different than Baylor because everyone knew at Baylor and not everyone knew at Vermont... which is it exactly?

Your user name would indicate you’re a Binghamton fan, if that’s the case I question how in the loop you are to be able to make such a definitive assessment that Vermont is different than Baylor...

Once again the Vermont Track and Field athletes spoke up, in a big way, and they seem to be the only athletes in America East history who have taken a real stand on an issue like this given there platform. Yes, it would have been better if they’d done something sooner, but you can’t say the reasons why — it seems like things have finally reached a boiling point among students in Burlington and it’s better to speak out now than never (which seems like you’re stance is they should just stay silent since they didn’t speak up last year). Maybe they have gotten to know survivors; maybe people they care about have made disclosures which opened their eyes... There are a host of reasons why they might have stayed silent.

Word is students may do something at graduation as a protest, are you going to look down on that? Because everyone is in support of Hartford students protesting dropping down to DIII at graduation and rape seems a little more tragic in the grand scheme of things...

Lastly, yes, there are people who lie about rape just as there are people who lie about all manner of things: but statistically those Liars are far and away outliers when it comes to reported rapes. Do you question anyone who reports any crime? Is that the gut response if someone says they were car jacked? Their house was broken into?

I mean people lie about getting diagnosed with cancer, should we treat everyone who disclosed a cancer diagnoses with skepticism?
I am not in the loop in Vermont. My only question is did Becker know his players were raping and beating women as stated on Instagram? Apparently at Baylor, Briles knew and was actively brining in questionable athletes. There is zero proof that Becker did this or knew about any of this other than Ware. Ware was then referred to the title 9 office where it went south, whether the title 9 office or athletic department bungled the whole thing or not we will find out. As of now, we only know ware's side of the story and the school is forced to stay silent because of the lawsuit and student confidentiality. There needs to be an investigation to see who knew what and when did they know it. After the investigation fire them all and refer them to the police if it is warranted. I want scumbags to be fired and arrested but just want to make sure it is justified first.

I have know clue who knew what at Vermont. Everyone else apparently thinks everyone knew. That is was a big open secret. So if everyone knew why did they stay silent?

Apparently we have to agree to disagree on this one. That's ok. I do not think they "stepped up in a big way. " If they did it back in September or when the instragrams started coming out sure. But apparently knowing about this stuff and waiting isn't stepping up in a big way. At this point it is what it is. Good job for finally stepping up i guess. This would be like saying the Germans stepped up in a big way to speak out against Hitler after the war ended.

I do not disagree when people report crimes. however i do disagree when people regardless of crime want people arrested or fired without an actual investigation to see if there was any wrong doing by that individual.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
205 Posts

Most of the athletes that did it aren't seniors.

For the people saying Schulman shouldn't be fired, this "whole thing" started because he tricked a SA into not going to the proper authorities on campus. I'm sure there's plenty athletic administrators around the country who can do his job as well as him but with better morals (you would hope, at least!)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts

Most of the athletes that did it aren't seniors.

For the people saying Schulman shouldn't be fired, this "whole thing" started because he tricked a SA into not going to the proper authorities on campus. I'm sure there's plenty athletic administrators around the country who can do his job as well as him but with better morals (you would hope, at least!)
How many of the folks calling for certain heads to roll have any familiarity with dealing with sexual abuse allegations? Related investigations? Bureaucratic responses to such allegations? To the inevitable complexities and often contradictory evidence in virtually all such matters?

It troubles me greatly that some are so quick to draw conclusions here. Granted, the university’s public stance has been notably muted to date but, again, we realistically cannot expect to get all the details. What makes most sense to me is the hiring of an independent expert/team to review all the factors that have been alleged to date (specific allegations, systems’/individual responses to those allegations, adequacy of existing systems designed to fairly address those allegations, recommended systems changes, etc.

Advocacy for the same seems to be the best way for some meaningful insight and institutional change and some measure of credibility restoration.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts

Most of the athletes that did it aren't seniors.

For the people saying Schulman shouldn't be fired, this "whole thing" started because he tricked a SA into not going to the proper authorities on campus. I'm sure there's plenty athletic administrators around the country who can do his job as well as him but with better morals (you would hope, at least!)
That is a very strong statement. Who did he trick and how did he trick them?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
This is my point. Did you read the article? Schulman didn't trick anyone. you want a guy fired for tricking a student into doing something which from the article was not very involved with case.

The only quote regarding Schulman specifically speaking to ware is this "Ware said Schulman told her that suspensions during pending formal investigations only take place in cases of public arrests, in stark contrast to what Marcie Ware said Balogh told her in November. Kendall Ware said she wanted the player to receive some form of game suspension, but not to the extent that it would cost him the entire basketball season."

It would seem Balogh was the person most involved.

Again an investigation is needed to see what was said inside those meetings. Based on that investigation people can be fired or kept. However, i don't think you can say Schulman tricked anyone based on that article. On top of that even if Schulman was trying to trick someone and was pulling the strings behind the scenes, i would assume Kate Spence from title IX office and Krista Balogh the associate AD would not put their entire careers on the line to cover for schulman. An investigation is needed.
 
81 - 100 of 107 Posts
Top