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Krause and wether he fired Clay or not.

Krause runs the team. The Marketing guy answers to him and even if it was the marketing guy that pulled the trigger it is naive to think it was done with out Krause being in the know. All I need to do is look at what JK is in the organization to know what he is capable of doing.

I say Krause because I fully believe it is synonymous with the Bulls organiaztion and Krause may not own the club but he is the guy right under the guy.

I think clay has every right to voice his opinnon when asked. He was asked his personal feelings about the matter, not his professional opinion. He gave his personal feelings that he wanted to give MJ a trbute and announce him like he had when he played for the Bulls. This was vetoed and he did it the way he was asked. Now if he had rebeled and did it anyway, I could see him getting fired for it. His comments were more about what he wanted to do and how he was denied, not about how he was bitter. To get fired over it is ludicrous.

As for whether there is a new intro or not with the music or the Bulls cartoon, Clay could have read the names just as well as whoever replaces him. He did not symbolize one way to do it, but rather a voice that is recognizable as part of the Bulls.

At the end of the day it is a small matter but it is indicative of the organization. And when I say organization you can read into what I mean through my earlier comments.
 

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More unsubstantiated assumptions from BCH.

It is entirely possible, and even likely, that Krause has given Steve Schanwald total control over all matters related to the PA announcer and player introductions. It's called delegating authority. Or I suppose you believe that Krause also personally selects what type of flowers are planted outside the Berto Center?

I take it by your lack of respones to my analogous question about Yao Ming that you have no response.
 

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Originally posted by BCH
Krause and wether he fired Clay or not.

Krause runs the team. The Marketing guy answers to him and even if it was the marketing guy that pulled the trigger it is naive to think it was done with out Krause being in the know. All I need to do is look at what JK is in the organization to know what he is capable of doing.

I say Krause because I fully believe it is synonymous with the Bulls organiaztion and Krause may not own the club but he is the guy right under the guy.

I think clay has every right to voice his opinnon when asked. He was asked his personal feelings about the matter, not his professional opinion. He gave his personal feelings that he wanted to give MJ a trbute and announce him like he had when he played for the Bulls. This was vetoed and he did it the way he was asked. Now if he had rebeled and did it anyway, I could see him getting fired for it. His comments were more about what he wanted to do and how he was denied, not about how he was bitter. To get fired over it is ludicrous.

As for whether there is a new intro or not with the music or the Bulls cartoon, Clay could have read the names just as well as whoever replaces him. He did not symbolize one way to do it, but rather a voice that is recognizable as part of the Bulls.

At the end of the day it is a small matter but it is indicative of the organization. And when I say organization you can read into what I mean through my earlier comments.
BCH its still just your assumption. I am asking for all to give this board real proof that it was JK who fired Ray. And the real reason for it. Its still just an opinion. We need real proof that it was or it wasn't, otherwise, we have a difference of opinions that are deadlocked.
 

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Originally posted by Kneepad
More unsubstantiated assumptions from BCH.

It is entirely possible, and even likely, that Krause has given Steve Schanwald total control over all matters related to the PA announcer and player introductions. It's called delegating authority. Or I suppose you believe that Krause also personally selects what type of flowers are planted outside the Berto Center?

I take it by your lack of respones to my analogous question about Yao Ming that you have no response.
No. i didn't respond because you made a poor analogy. The Houston PA announcer is in no position to make judgement calls on talent. Ray Clay made his introduction of Jordan famous. He was there for the whole experience. He is fully qualified on giving his opinion on how he felt he should announce Jordan.

I didn't point this out because I thought it was obvious, but I will be more than happy to answer if you demand I address each and every point you make.

I never said that Schanwald didn't fire the guy, I am saying that to think it was done without the knowledge/approval/blessing of Krause is naive. The fact that it was picked up by national media indicates that if it didn't, then Krause is delegating authority to the wrong people.
 

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Originally posted by truebluefan


BCH its still just your assumption. I am asking for all to give this board real proof that it was JK who fired Ray. And the real reason for it. Its still just an opinion. We need real proof that it was or it wasn't, otherwise, we have a difference of opinions that are deadlocked.
Truebluefan,

My argument is based on more fact than any other. Krause runs the organization. That is without a doubt. If blame is going to fall, it is going to fall on him. I am at least giving him enough credit to put him in a position to be in control of something like this. It is hilious to think a joe schmoe PR guy does this without fully realizing the ramifications and advising Krause of it first.

As for the reason, again I have most of the facts on my side. There is no doubt that Clay said how he wanted to announce MJ and how he was told no. This was made public. His firing was addressed witht he statement the Bulls wanted to go in a new direction. We can only go with what we have seen.

I am depending upon insinuation the least out of anyone even debating this.
 

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I guess my standpoint is this:

If Krause did decide to have Clay fired b/c he said publicly that he wanted to announce MJ like he used to, who cares? If I worked for the Bulls I would know that there are some things you don't take to the media. It's common knowledge that Krause and Jordan have a bad relationship. Krause is your current employer. Jordan is no longer a part of the company. And as harsh and short-sided as this sounds, I would have felt kind of crappy being a member of the Bulls and hearing MY pa announcer give the other team the home team treatment. These guys know what's up and know who the fans were there to see but at the same time - you're already living in his huge *** shadow. You're already playing in Mike's house with his banners and statue and "sacred" locker. Krause is trying to give these new guys a sense of idenity and make them seem like the stars. If I were the Bulls PA announcer I would not do anything to jeapordize that sweet job. Clay knows Krause. He knows what will piss him off. Maybe he didn't think he'd lose his job for stating an opinion but I guess he learned the hard way.

If that's what the reason was.
 

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I remember when Pippen came back to the United Center for his first time as a Rocket, we gave him a WHOLE tribute, music, highlights, a bunch of stuff... Jordan should have atlest gotten something like that, but then again it was Krause's decision to trade Pippen so I guess Krause thought it was OK to give him something...
 

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Originally posted by Lizzy
I guess my standpoint is this:

If Krause did decide to have Clay fired b/c he said publicly that he wanted to announce MJ like he used to, who cares? If I worked for the Bulls I would know that there are some things you don't take to the media. It's common knowledge that Krause and Jordan have a bad relationship. Krause is your current employer. Jordan is no longer a part of the company. And as harsh and short-sided as this sounds, I would have felt kind of crappy being a member of the Bulls and hearing MY pa announcer give the other team the home team treatment. These guys know what's up and know who the fans were there to see but at the same time - you're already living in his huge *** shadow. You're already playing in Mike's house with his banners and statue and "sacred" locker. Krause is trying to give these new guys a sense of idenity and make them seem like the stars. If I were the Bulls PA announcer I would not do anything to jeapordize that sweet job. Clay knows Krause. He knows what will piss him off. Maybe he didn't think he'd lose his job for stating an opinion but I guess he learned the hard way.

If that's what the reason was.
You make a point. And I am on record as saying that I don't personally care that Clay was fired, and the reasons you give for why he was fired are probably accurate. he probably even knew the situation he was in and that his comments put him out there as a target. Taking all of it into account, it still does not make sense to fire the guy for his comments. My point is that if it has reached the point where this type of behavious is expected from the Bulls organization, it can't be good.
 

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Originally posted by BCH


Truebluefan,

My argument is based on more fact than any other. Krause runs the organization. That is without a doubt. If blame is going to fall, it is going to fall on him. I am at least giving him enough credit to put him in a position to be in control of something like this. It is hilious to think a joe schmoe PR guy does this without fully realizing the ramifications and advising Krause of it first.

As for the reason, again I have most of the facts on my side. There is no doubt that Clay said how he wanted to announce MJ and how he was told no. This was made public. His firing was addressed witht he statement the Bulls wanted to go in a new direction. We can only go with what we have seen.

I am depending upon insinuation the least out of anyone even debating this.
But BCH, you are still missing the fact that i want proof. Clear and simple. Connecting the dots is not always the clear picture. Both sides here, can talk all they want and get no where. What i want is:

Clear proof that supports your arguement not opinion. Truth is no one knows exactly how the bulls organization is ran. Not really. I will give you this, you make an arguement, but thats all it is is arguement. I challenged all on this board to present proof to support their side. Articles preferred. Both sides. Now is that being unreasonable?

If we don't get clear proof for either/or, then we will always argue and get no where. Over and over and over....
 

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truebluefan,

There was one press release stating the Bulls want to go in a new direction. That is it.

You want concrete proof from me? I have presented a very easy to follow argument as to why Krause would know and why he is to blame. No one has even presented anything close to a reason why they believe what they believe. I know you recognize this, but to get a straight answer about it from the Bulls is not going to happen. Marriotti clearly echoed what I said, but his column is no longer there.

Like I said, I know this is going to be a circular argument, and that it is pretty much over. Nothing new is being said, but I answered the original posters question with the fact that it was speculation and intimation on why he was fired.

I am all for moving on to the next topic rather than beating this twice dead horse again. But as has happened in the past, if I fail to address each and every point made, I am accused of ducking the issue. Lets all just let it go.
 

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Originally posted by BCH


You make a point. And I am on record as saying that I don't personally care that Clay was fired, and the reasons you give for why he was fired are probably accurate. he probably even knew the situation he was in and that his comments put him out there as a target. Taking all of it into account, it still does not make sense to fire the guy for his comments. My point is that if it has reached the point where this type of behavious is expected from the Bulls organization, it can't be good.
Well - from what I understand the Bulls orginization doesn't look good to outsiders whether it's warranted or not. I think Krause could buy everyone on the staff a brand new car and the BUlls would still seem like a bad place to be. Not until we start winning consistently will people even care about what Chicago is doing.

Look at it this way. Probably every basketball fan out side of Chicago hates Krause. They think he broke up the dynasty single-handedly and so they hate him. Probably half of the BUlls fans hate Krause for the same reason. That leaves a very tiny portion of people who actually like Krause. The firing of Ray Clay isn't going to make or break what people think of the Bulls. They already have set opinions and not much is going to change that. The bottom line is there are far worse GM's and far worse orginizations to play for. It's all about perception and the current perception of Chicago is bad. Period. (for all of their major sports for that matter. Chicago sports have the worst owners. The Bulls are the newest and most successful franchise in the city)
 

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Originally posted by BCH
truebluefan,

There was one press release stating the Bulls want to go in a new direction. That is it.

You want concrete proof from me? I have presented a very easy to follow argument as to why Krause would know and why he is to blame. No one has even presented anything close to a reason why they believe what they believe. I know you recognize this, but to get a straight answer about it from the Bulls is not going to happen. Marriotti clearly echoed what I said, but his column is no longer there.

Like I said, I know this is going to be a circular argument, and that it is pretty much over. Nothing new is being said, but I answered the original posters question with the fact that it was speculation and intimation on why he was fired.

I am all for moving on to the next topic rather than beating this twice dead horse again. But as has happened in the past, if I fail to address each and every point made, I am accused of ducking the issue. Lets all just let it go.
More meaningless drivel. Then he runs.

Krauses title is VP of BASKETBALL Operations.

Yes, he is the 'face' of the organization because he puts the product on the floor. But's a multitiered organization.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/staff_directory.html

I'm sure he's not interested in facts though. They don't allow him to arrest threads like he has this one.

Shame on you TrueBlue.
 

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Ty for your link. No he didnt arrest this thread. I pushed it as much or more than he did. I am just so tired of hearing that JK is guilty of everything! With no real hard proof. If he can come up with proof to support his claim then i will accept it! If however real proof proves otherwise, that JK was not to blame for Ray being fired, then every time JK gets blames for this i can squash it. It doesn't matter if he is intersted in the facts are not. True hard facts speak louder than hearsay.

By the way i got a couple of e-mails out and hope to get an answer on this by the weekends end.
 

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Originally posted by BCH
My argument is based on more fact than any other. Krause runs the organization. That is without a doubt. If blame is going to fall, it is going to fall on him. I am at least giving him enough credit to put him in a position to be in control of something like this. It is hilious to think a joe schmoe PR guy does this without fully realizing the ramifications and advising Krause of it first.
I believe you are wrong about that, BCH. Krause's title is "Executive Vice President - Basketball Operations". Steve Shanwald's title is "Executive Vice President - Business Operations". Included in his job description is overseeing "areas that include Ticket Sales, Advertising Sales, Game Entertainment, Promotions, Media Services, Community Relations, Publications, Advertising and Broadcasting". Sounds to me like Schanwald does NOT report to Krause, but rather directly to Reinsdorf.
 

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That's true. In most companies 1 executive vice-president would not report to another. A VP can report to an EVP but that's about it. EVP's report to CEO's.

I'm babbling.

That's a good point Kneepad.
 

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And Wes Unseld is the Wizards GM, making the call on all roster moves.

Titles are meaningless, and if you want to look to the corporate world you will easily see this. It is all about who has the clout.
 
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