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So why not go for 25-30 million??

And how many did you get in your first year? In your second? Do you plan on getting 20 million a year from here on out?


What did the ACC get this year?

I hope you don't run your own business.

And it's good to see you are still alive....we worried after last week about you.
ACC got 30m for 15 teams. Do the math.
 

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The math tells me that's more money. And they still have 2 schools left, one which will obviously get knocked out but still...they've guaranteed another unit still.

And then look at what the ACC did the last 3 years in comparison to the BE.

This was a watershed year for the NBE that can't be relied on to be duplicated. The ACC does it every year.

And you can throw the Big Ten in that ACC category for most years (down this year). Go look at the Forbes Top 20 most valuable programs. It's almost solely ACC/Big Ten schools because of what those conferences bring in on a yearly basis in units. And they do that because they send 7-8 teams every year to the NCAA. The Big East will never get to that level as a 10 team league. Sorry, that's math.
 

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The math tells me that's more money. And they still have 2 schools left, one which will obviously get knocked out but still...they've guaranteed another unit still.

And then look at what the ACC did the last 3 years in comparison to the BE.

This was a watershed year for the NBE that can't be relied on to be duplicated. The ACC does it every year.
I think MudFlap is an idiot.... but come on Flyer, I think you are a decently smart guy.

ACC = $30M/15 teams = $2M/team
Big East = $20M/10 teams = $2M/team

6 in one, half dozen in the other. Same thing. Who cares.

You do realize you don't get another unit for making the championship, right? So the ACC or Big 12 or Big East aren't getting another unit.

And lastly, why are you acting like this is a "watershed" year for the Big East and they'll never be able to do it again? Big East earned 12 units this year and 11 units last year. Big East had 5 times in this year, 6 teams in last year. It "can't be relied upon to be duplicated" when the league has done it 2 out of 3 years of its existence?
 

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The “if it ain’t broke…” argument is the best the Big East fans come up with for not collecting more money.

A poster named Sheg broke it down. For a 13-team Big East to make more total revenue from NCAA units, they’d need seven more units every six years. Since a bid is a unit, but the 11 seeds win one-third of the team, you’d basically need an extra bid every other year. Which is ridiculously plausible.


And that’s the key part… BIDS = Opportunity.

An extra Big East bid is going to be a 10 or 11 seed and face a 6, 7 seed (or a fellow 11 seed in Dayton). You get an extra bid, and you’re going to make more dough. Either from pistol-whipping an undeserving Tulsa in the First Four, or an overmatched but deserving Saint Mary’s. And then possibly beating a 6 or 7 seed. Marquette & Creighton were 8-12 (.400) vs NCAA teams seeded 6-9 (Hall, Butler, Prov, Wisconsin, Iowa). So a 40% chance they get TWO units.
 

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And you can throw the Big Ten in that ACC category for most years (down this year). Go look at the Forbes Top 20 most valuable programs. It's almost solely ACC/Big Ten schools because of what those conferences bring in on a yearly basis in units. And they do that because they send 7-8 teams every year to the NCAA. The Big East will never get to that level as a 10 team league. Sorry, that's math.
You should watch this clip from Jay Wright talking about the Power 5.

The Big East isn't trying to be like the Big 10 or ACC or Big 12. It just isn't. It's a different animal. He explains it so well, I can't do it justice.... but comparing the Big East to the ACC or Big 10 just doesn't make sense because they aren't trying to be those leagues. That was the OLD Big East.


(And just out of total curiosity, you state the Big East will never get to the financial/valuable level of the ACC or Big 10 programs because they are a 10 team league and it's just math. So do you think adding 2 basketball only schools is somehow going to make the Big East financials more comparable to a ACC or B10 member?)
 

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I think MudFlap is an idiot.... but come on Flyer, I think you are a decently smart guy.

ACC = $30M/15 teams = $2M/team
Big East = $20M/10 teams = $2M/team

6 in one, half dozen in the other. Same thing. Who cares.

You do realize you don't get another unit for making the championship, right? So the ACC or Big 12 or Big East aren't getting another unit.

And lastly, why are you acting like this is a "watershed" year for the Big East and they'll never be able to do it again? Big East earned 12 units this year and 11 units last year. Big East had 5 times in this year, 6 teams in last year. It "can't be relied upon to be duplicated" when the league has done it 2 out of 3 years of its existence?
I never said the BE couldn't do this again....but it's much more of a given the ACC and Big Ten will continually do this year and year out and even the PAC-12 and Big 12 will bring home more money this year. Yes, I fully understand the math on dividing the amount of money.

But isn't the issue still trying to get more teams in for more chances at longer runs where the real notoriety comes in??

We are just going to talk in circles about his over and over and over.

JP's theory was proven today when I talked to a close friend on the phone who is a Xavier/BE fan and doesn't really want expansion. He thinks IF the BE expands they have to find top level teams to make it worth it who fit in the top tier of the BE. Once I explained the way JP has been explaining it here, he was like "oh, never thought of it that way". Ya, you do your due diligence and make sure you aren't taking on a perennial 6-23 team, but you don't have to find a team who has made the NCAA 10 out of the last 11 years either as a qualification.

IMO, the BE brand isn't going to touch the ACC/Big Ten and Big 12 until they can get 7, 8 or maybe in knockout years 9 teams in but 6-8 EVERY year would get the BE in the conversation.
 

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You should watch this clip from Jay Wright talking about the Power 5.

The Big East isn't trying to be like the Big 10 or ACC or Big 12. It just isn't. It's a different animal. He explains it so well, I can't do it justice.... but comparing the Big East to the ACC or Big 10 just doesn't make sense because they aren't trying to be those leagues. That was the OLD Big East.


(And just out of total curiosity, you state the Big East will never get to the financial/valuable level of the ACC or Big 10 programs because they are a 10 team league and it's just math. So do you think adding 2 basketball only schools is somehow going to make the Big East financials more comparable to a ACC or B10 member?)
OK, that's fine if that's what Jay Wright said. I'm not going to disagree with your post on that.

But then BE fans need to stop claiming how impartial everyone (media) is to the Big 10, ACC, ect. These are the conferences that are putting 7-8 teams in (right or wrong) and making runs every year single with multiple teams in the FF and hanging NC banners. I just think it's pretty obvious thinking that if the BE expanded to 12 maybe 14 teams, they would then start putting 7-8 teams in EVERY year. Why wouldn't you want that?

The notoriety and the press the other conferences get is from getting 6 teams in the S16, the BE got 1 (a team that could win it all I might add and who i actually enjoy watching quite a bit). The Big Ten in a fairly awful performance from them got 3 into the S16. I guess I'm baffled by the logic that status quo is ok and we are ok with consistently being the 5th best conference in basketball....2 spots generally ahead of the A10 when there could be much more to gain and really nothing to lose.
 

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Xavier not wanting UD in the New Big East is a strategic decision relative to men's basketball only. You are delusional if you believe any different. As an academic institution UD dwarfs Xavier.
That just simply isn't true.

Xavier and UD were in the same league for 18 years. How were those 18 years for men's basketball at Dayton and Xavier? It ain't a basketball decision. Lol.


I've talked to several different people at UD. The University's desire to join the Big East is institutional-related.... not athletics related. The fan's desire is certainly men's basketball-related, but that isn't the University's.

It's about perception. And thought of in the same group, class, etc as the nation's premiere Catholic universities. It's tough to explain on a message board UD's desire to be in the Big East is much more academic and perception and branding and institutional related than it is athletics related.

Yes, UD and Xavier are two different academic institutions. UD is a research institution, Xavier is a liberal arts university. But outside of the Engineering school, they are pretty darn similar. They are going after essentially the exact same type/group of potential students. Again, it's hard to explain on a message board (or maybe I just don't feel like typing it all out at 9pm) but that's where Xavier sees a strategic advantage over a close competitor like UD. Perception. Separating themselves in a very visible, public way like a Big East affiliation. It's about admissions/perception/branding/etc.

I'm tired and that isn't a very eloquent explanation above..... but if you talk to anyone at UD - the Big East thing for them isn't about athletics. It's much, much larger than that.
 

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I think MudFlap is an idiot.... but come on Flyer, I think you are a decently smart guy.

ACC = $30M/15 teams = $2M/team
Big East = $20M/10 teams = $2M/team

6 in one, half dozen in the other. Same thing. Who cares.
I haven’t been actually watching the NCAA tournament, so I could be totally wrong, but (I'm not and) in what universe was the Big East haul THAT CLOSE to the ACC haul?

NBE: 5 teams in, 7 victories = 12 units @ $1.67m approx. = $20.04 million, divided by 10 teams = $2.0040 per team.

ACC: 7 teams in, 18 victories = 25 units @ $1.67m approx. = $41.75 million, divided by 15 teams = $2.783 per team.

(And while the ACC doesn't get money for it, Syracuse was safely in the R64 and Louisville & SMU would have bumped out Michigan & Tulsa; Obviously we'll never know what the bracket/units would look like if they were in, but you gotta admit, they'd have AT LEAST one more unit, even if they had the misfortune of being Stone Cold Stephen F. Austin'd in the first round.).


Of course, let’s say that JP’s 12-team Big East with Bona & Belmont got Bona and Creighton into the First Four games (Bona loses to Michigan, Creighton beats Vandy, but lose R64)

NBE: 7 teams in, 8 victories = 15 units @ $1.67m approx. = $25.05 million, divided by 12 teams = $2.088 per team.

Not to mention more TV markets, more BET ticket sales, etc. (and a recent A-10 member losing in the First Four at Dayton? Ha. Has never happened, has it?)
 

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I never said the BE couldn't do this again....but it's much more of a given the ACC and Big Ten will continually do this year and year out and even the PAC-12 and Big 12 will bring home more money this year. Yes, I fully understand the math on dividing the amount of money.

But isn't the issue still trying to get more teams in for more chances at longer runs where the real notoriety comes in??

We are just going to talk in circles about his over and over and over.

JP's theory was proven today when I talked to a close friend on the phone who is a Xavier/BE fan and doesn't really want expansion. He thinks IF the BE expands they have to find top level teams to make it worth it who fit in the top tier of the BE. Once I explained the way JP has been explaining it here, he was like "oh, never thought of it that way". Ya, you do your due diligence and make sure you aren't taking on a perennial 6-23 team, but you don't have to find a team who has made the NCAA 10 out of the last 11 years either as a qualification.

IMO, the BE brand isn't going to touch the ACC/Big Ten and Big 12 until they can get 7, 8 or maybe in knockout years 9 teams in but 6-8 EVERY year would get the BE in the conversation.
Two posts ago, you asked what the Big East did last year in response to learning they got 12 units this year. You said this was a watershed year for the Big East that would be hard to replicate.

Sounds to me like you didn't think they could do it again.

They've done it 2 out of the 3 years the BE has been in its current configuration.

Again, the Big East isn't trying to be the ACC or the Big 10. It just isn't. If you want to knock the Big East for that, go ahead. The Big East isn't the ACC.

But to suggestion that the Big East has to get 7 or 8 teams in the tournament, and sometimes 9!, to be considered a power conference.... I'm kind of at a loss. Adding 2 teams isn't going to 8 or 9 bids! Big East is sending 60% or 50% of its conference now, which you say isn't sustainable! 8 or 9 bids from a 12 team conference would be 66% or 75%. It just doesn't make sense lol. Let's just combine the A-10 and Big East, current Big East teams can lose their ass in the FOX contract, but hell, maybe we'll get 12 teams in the Dance!
 

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Two posts ago, you asked what the Big East did last year in response to learning they got 12 units this year. You said this was a watershed year for the Big East that would be hard to replicate.

Sounds to me like you didn't think they could do it again.

They've done it 2 out of the 3 years the BE has been in its current configuration.

Again, the Big East isn't trying to be the ACC or the Big 10. It just isn't. If you want to knock the Big East for that, go ahead. The Big East isn't the ACC.

But to suggestion that the Big East has to get 7 or 8 teams in the tournament, and sometimes 9!, to be considered a power conference.... I'm kind of at a loss. Adding 2 teams isn't going to 8 or 9 bids! Big East is sending 60% or 50% of its conference now, which you say isn't sustainable! 8 or 9 bids from a 12 team conference would be 66% or 75%. It just doesn't make sense lol. Let's just combine the A-10 and Big East, current Big East teams can lose their ass in the FOX contract, but hell, maybe we'll get 12 teams in the Dance!
Did you miss the part where I've also mentioned 4 teams? I said in a knockout year with 4 more teams you could get 9...it would certainly take a special year no doubt but 7-8 would be the norm. Look at my post a couple posts up...I clearly mentioned 14 teams. There's no way a 12 team league gets 9 bids. Upping to 12 probably keeps you at 5 and above for sure with chances for 7 in good years.

You are really over exaggerating what I'm saying.

And it looks like Mudflap seriously underestimated what the ACC is getting this year too. Almost 750K more per team.
 

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I haven’t been actually watching the NCAA tournament, so I could be totally wrong, but (I'm not and) in what universe was the Big East haul THAT CLOSE to the ACC haul?

NBE: 5 teams in, 7 victories = 12 units @ $1.67m approx. = $20.04 million, divided by 10 teams = $2.0040 per team.

ACC: 7 teams in, 18 victories = 25 units @ $1.67m approx. = $41.75 million, divided by 15 teams = $2.783 per team.


Of course, let’s say that JP’s 12-team Big East with Bona & Belmont got Bona and Creighton into the First Four games (Bona loses to Michigan, Creighton beats Vandy, but lose R64)

NBE: 7 teams in, 8 victories = 15 units @ $1.67m approx. = $25.05 million, divided by 12 teams = $2.088 per team.

Not to mention more TV markets, more BET ticket sales, etc. (and a recent A-10 member losing in the First Four at Dayton? Ha. Has never happened, has it?)
I don't know. I used MudFlap's numbers of $20M for the Big East and $30M for ACC (I shouldn't have trusted MF! haha)

So your model would have made each Big East team an additional $84,000 this year. I think you'd have every single President/AD in the Big East say that $84k isn't worth... not even close.

And it'd be a net loss. Because FOX really isn't wanting to dump more cash out the door now. Some of those TV dollars would have had to been redistributed to the 2 new schools. (And the BE tourney doesn't need help selling tickets. The Championship game sold out MSG).
 

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I haven’t been actually watching the NCAA tournament, so I could be totally wrong, but (I'm not and) in what universe was the Big East haul THAT CLOSE to the ACC haul?

NBE: 5 teams in, 7 victories = 12 units @ $1.67m approx. = $20.04 million, divided by 10 teams = $2.0040 per team.

ACC: 7 teams in, 18 victories = 25 units @ $1.67m approx. = $41.75 million, divided by 15 teams = $2.783 per team.

(And while the ACC doesn't get money for it, Syracuse was safely in the R64 and Louisville & SMU would have bumped out Michigan & Tulsa; Obviously we'll never know what the bracket/units would look like if they were in, but you gotta admit, they'd have AT LEAST one more unit, even if they had the misfortune of being Stone Cold Stephen F. Austin'd in the first round.).


Of course, let’s say that JP’s 12-team Big East with Bona & Belmont got Bona and Creighton into the First Four games (Bona loses to Michigan, Creighton beats Vandy, but lose R64)

NBE: 7 teams in, 8 victories = 15 units @ $1.67m approx. = $25.05 million, divided by 12 teams = $2.088 per team.

Not to mention more TV markets, more BET ticket sales, etc. (and a recent A-10 member losing in the First Four at Dayton? Ha. Has never happened, has it?)

When Mudflap posted those numbers I thought there's no way in hell that can be right when the ACC got 6 teams to the S16, 4 to the E8 and 2 to the FF.

I think he looked at Forbes' projections for each conference which had the BE right under the 20 million mark and the ACC right above the 30 million mark...but that was released on March 17.
 

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So are you are admitting this year probably wasn't a fluke for the Big East like you had previously suggested?
A fluke? Where did I use that term?

I'm looking at big picture, not this year only. Yes, good year for the BE...you got 1 team to the S16...congrats.

That's been par for the course by the way. Getting a team to the FF is a different story. Go ahead, book your FF tickets for next year and the next. I'll wait and see.

In a three trend the BE barely got in 4, got 6, and then 5. My guess is this trend holds steady. You'll have a down year coming up where you only get 4 (cause you only have 10 teams so that's what a down year will do to you...enter Paul screaming 40%). Now what those teams do in the NCAA is a different story but so far the 3 year trend isn't real good of 2 total S16 appearances. (other than the FF appearance)
 

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Talking about units and $ earned. Not how many teams are in the S16. You said this was a watershed year for the Big East and not easy to be replicated. And in a post before that responding to the Big East making $20M this year, how much the BE made last year and the year before that?

Clearly you were under the impression this year wasn't really the "norm".... yet it's been the norm 2 out of the 3 years of the current configuration.
 

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I guess the bottom line is - you are constantly trying to measure the Big East against the ACC or Big 10 ..... so what's your solution?

If the Big East adds Dayton and Saint Louis is it now a big boy held in the same breath as the ACC and Big 10?

What's your endgame?

The Big East isn't trying to be the ACC or Big 10. But even if they were (and you surely compare it a lot to those 2 conferences) how does adding Dayton and Saint Louis even remotely make the Big East any more similar to the ACC and Big 10?
 

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(And just out of total curiosity, you state the Big East will never get to the financial/valuable level of the ACC or Big 10 programs because they are a 10 team league and it's just math. So do you think adding 2 basketball only schools is somehow going to make the Big East financials more comparable to a ACC or B10 member?)
I'm going to jump in on this one, even though I don't care about the UD/XU cock-measuring contest you have going on...

If the Big East were to add the RIGHT THREE members (not the BEST three additions, but the right ones) and put together a schedule formula so most the Big East losses are being absorbed by the bottom four members, the Big East would find itself in a position where the teams 7-8-9 of the Big East are in the NCAA discussion because their RPIs are no longer 85-110.

Conference play is a ZERO SUM GAME. With 10 teams, your top 10 ARE GOING 90-90. With 12 teams, your Top 10 could possibly go 107-73.

Then you can get the teams with NCAA caliber rosters into the NCAA Tournament. Which you're not doing now. Two teams (or more) with NCAA rosters are in the NIT or worse.

More BE schools that CAN make the dance in a given year, the better recruiting goes for everyone. Which makes you better and you win even more OOC games the next year.

If you're getting 8-9 bids to the dance routinely, it isn't going to be "The Power 5 and the Big East" in people's minds. It will be "Who needs football, is the Big East the best conference in the college basketball?"


I am of the opinion that schools like Creighton and Marquette are actually much better than their season performance, but are forced into a worse record because SOMEONE has to take those 90 Big East Conference losses. It's not a popular one on the A-10 forum. It's baffling to me why it would be unpopular on the Big East forum. Again, Creighton & Marquette were 8-13 against NCAA teams outside the top 2 seed lines.

In order to get 7 to the dance, you'd need everything to break perfect. In order to get 8, you'd need a miracle from Black Baby Jesus. Picking the right three expansion candidates, 7.5 can be your average, 8 above average and 10 a great season.
 

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I guess the bottom line is - you are constantly trying to measure the Big East against the ACC or Big 10 ..... so what's your solution?

If the Big East adds Dayton and Saint Louis is it now a big boy held in the same breath as the ACC and Big 10?

What's your endgame?

The Big East isn't trying to be the ACC or Big 10. But even if they were (and you surely compare it a lot to those 2 conferences) how does adding Dayton and Saint Louis even remotely make the Big East any more similar to the ACC and Big 10?
Endgame? None...most of us here just see the logic in expansion and discuss cause it comes up every off season. Plus it brings BE and Xavier fans here to discuss hoops with us.

Do I think the BE will ever get to the level of the ACC/Big 10? Not really, but why not try? This is business 101. Why settle?

Logically (and I'll use SLU and Dayton since you brought them up) you are probably gaining at least 1 more bid a year and maybe 2 and has JP has explained it's not necessarily one or both of those teams getting the bids. That's now putting regularly 6 teams in, maybe maybe maybe 7 out 12. So still the beloved 50% or more percentage and you automatically.

6-7 teams is more opportunity to advance deeper than 4-5.

BTW, I am not the one trying to measure the BE against the ACC / Big 10...that would be BE fans on message boards (i'm not saying you specifically). If the BE wants to stay the around the 5th best conference, so be it. Who am I to judge, my team is in the A10. :boxing:
 
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