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JP, I'm going to admit it's beyond me, and I probably need your visual aids.

But just on the basic deal, you were arguing for the BE to have more teams so they would have a couple teams on the bottom to suck up loses. And I showed you the ACC and A10, and how they DID have teams on the bottom to suck up loses...and the ratios of the records of both were the same.
Yet the ACC gets 7 teams in, and the A10 got 2.

So, to me at least, it's more important how you do OOC, and maybe you have to be riskier. It doesn't do the A10 any good to have teams on the bottom absorbing conference loses, when your conference and overall record (Dayton and Davidson) is that same as some ACC schools, and leaves you on the outside looking in.
 

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JP, I'm going to admit it's beyond me, and I probably need your visual aids.

But just on the basic deal, you were arguing for the BE to have more teams so they would have a couple teams on the bottom to suck up loses. And I showed you the ACC and A10, and how they DID have teams on the bottom to suck up loses...and the ratios of the records of both were the same.
Yet the ACC gets 7 teams in, and the A10 got 2.

So, to me at least, it's more important how you do OOC, and maybe you have to be riskier. It doesn't do the A10 any good to have teams on the bottom absorbing conference loses, when your conference and overall record (Dayton and Davidson) is that same as some ACC schools, and leaves you on the outside looking in.
Well, paul, take a look at the ACC teams' OOC home-to-road ratio in comparison to the A10. Most of those schools play two road games. Some don't play any true road games. On top of that, look at the types of programs the ACC can afford to buy for one-offs. It's apples and oranges. They play more home games, win most of them (like most decent-to-good teams), compile 10+ wins, and then play each other.
 

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Well, paul, take a look at the ACC teams' OOC home-to-road ratio in comparison to the A10. Most of those schools play two road games. Some don't play any true road games. On top of that, look at the types of programs the ACC can afford to buy for one-offs. It's apples and oranges. They play more home games, win most of them (like most decent-to-good teams), compile 10+ wins, and then play each other.
Good point, which was why I looked at OOC SOS to get some idea, and W/L's within quadrants 1/2 OOC.

Edit: Dayton played one OOC road game last year.
 

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JP, I'm going to admit it's beyond me, and I probably need your visual aids.

And I showed you the ACC and A10, and how they DID have teams on the bottom to suck up loses...and the ratios of the records of both were the same.

Yet the ACC gets 7 teams in, and the A10 got 2.

So, to me at least, it's more important how you do OOC
You're almost there. YES, how you do OOC is immensely important. It’s insanely important to conference effect because every conference is going .500 against itself, so how you all do OOC collectively as a conference is what separates Power Conferences from Non-Power conferences.

The ACC was 149-41 (.784) last year, and the A10 was 94-84 (.528). So the ACC gets 12 games against Q1, and the A10 gets 3 games against Q1.
The AAC gets their conference games worth like .620 on their SOS, the A-10 gets conference games worth like .510 on their SOS.

That’s why they get 7 bids and we got 2, despite conference standings being about the same.


I feel you’re viewing the “soaking up conference losses” part from an “Everyone’s the same” standpoint in terms of conference standings and — while that’s exactly true of conference STANDINGS, it’s not true of “who’s who on the NCAA At-Large board because of OOC play and what the does to NET/SOS/and the Q1 to Q4 breakdowns.


Generally, 10-team, 12-team, 14-team conferences act pretty consistently the same. Four teams finishing 7th at 7-11 is rare. Five teams finishing first at 12-6 is rare. If someone were to go through like 10 years of data on how a 10-team conference standings behave and take average records of each place (which I have!) they’d come to the conclusion that 10 teams is a bad number for the Big East based on the number of programs they have that COULD make the NCAAs in an unbalanced schedule (which I have been saying for years!).

That “Conferences perform the same IN CONFERENCE” was the basis on my whole “A-10 will be fine even though we’re losing Xavier, Temple, Butler and Charlotte” argument, while most outsiders thought we were screwed and headed toward San Juan Bid City. I knew that without Xavier, Dayton would be 2 games better. The big loss would be that Xavier and Butler tended to be awesome OOC record wise; but Temple and Charlotte did not, making it a wash for us.



The main part here is that: BECAUSE all the conferences act the same in conference play (as similar sized conferences), the records of team are not a true reflection of how good the teams actually ARE.

This is why I used the WCC as an example, because they are CONSISTENT and every knows the whole “If Gonzaga/Saint Mary’s was in a better conference, they wouldn’t be 30-3 or 28-6” argument.

Using the Big East, WCC* and a one-bid 10-team conference is the ideal example because they have the same configuration: 10 teams, BALANCED double-round robin schedule (* - the WCC abandoned that last year to keep Gonzaga, but for the previous five years those conferences were the same).
 

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So, to me at least, it's more important how you do OOC, and maybe you have to be riskier. It doesn't do the A10 any good to have teams on the bottom absorbing conference loses, when your conference and overall record (Dayton and Davidson) is that same as some ACC schools, and leaves you on the outside looking in.
You don't want to be riskier. We've had this convo a thousand times. Risk has a higher reward, but waaaaaay longer odds. The only time we were a one-bid league was when we did exactly that. It's why the A-10 replaced Linda Bruno.


The whole "It doesn't do the A10 any good to have teams on the bottom absorbing conference loses" thing is not wrong. It's not really helping us collectively. BUT

A. - I didn't say it was, I said the Big East needs it.
B. - It could help us if our middle was a lot better.

You're comparing the principle I'd advocate for the Big East as if the Top 10 of the Big East and A-10 are the same (They're not).

And that assumes the A-10 just formed with the decision to have those ratios (We didn't, we evolved over 30 years). The Big East actually did just form and DID choose those ratios. And I'm saying choosing those ratios wasn't the smartest of ideas.
 

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Robert Morris Considering Options to Leave Northeast Conference

The MAAC would be a nice fit for RMU. You can bet Canisius and Niagara would welcome another “western” league member, too.
Agree with this. They're a good fit with regard to facility size, and size and type of school as well. Not so much with the Horizon, which has transitioned from a league of mostly private schools, to a league of secondary publics. Football is an issue, as they play in the NEC, while the other two leagues don't offer football. Monmouth wasn't allowed to keep football there after they left, but they'd be down to 7 members if they kick Bobby Mo out.
 

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The Horizon League is so depressing. There are some good programs there, but so little unique identity. It’s a mishmash, as duq81 said, of secondary (if that) publics.

RMU would be an institutional fit in the MAAC, and their new arena would be among the best (if not #1) in that league. Long Island U, too, would be a fit there.

Maybe res can weigh in on the feasibility of this other concept, but I’ve heard from a couple of people in D1 athletics that Marist would prefer to move to the Patriot League.
 

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I can't see Marist receiving an invitation to join the PL for all sports. There was enough grumbling when Loyola joined -- and American way back when.

Football only might be a possibility. The league has been operating with only 7 football members for years now. If anyone else were to leave, i.e. Fordham, the PL would lose its automatic playoff slot.
 

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Robert Morris Considering Options to Leave Northeast Conference

The MAAC would be a nice fit for RMU. You can bet Canisius and Niagara would welcome another “western” league member, too.
Why is RMU leaving the NEC? Aside from the Horizon not being an “institutional” fit, the Horizon puts RMU in an entirely different geography. I don’t buy into the notion that basketball conferences are effective recruiting tools for non-athlete students, but Cleveland, Cincinnati, Indy, Detroit, Chicago and Milwaukee are easy drives from Pittsburgh.
 

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Why is RMU leaving the NEC? Aside from the Horizon not being an “institutional” fit, the Horizon puts RMU in an entirely different geography. I don’t buy into the notion that basketball conferences are effective recruiting tools for non-athlete students, but Cleveland, Cincinnati, Indy, Detroit, Chicago and Milwaukee are easy drives from Pittsburgh.
And Metro New York, New Jersey, and Western New York are not?
 

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And Metro New York, New Jersey, and Western New York are not?
They are, but I was trying to say that the NEC is essentially the same geographical region as the MAAC. The article that is linked implied that the Horizon is spread out across the Mid West, and that’s not true. I don’t see what RMU gains with the MAAC or Horizon. I’m not sure why I even invested the time to think about this.
 

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They are, but I was trying to say that the NEC is essentially the same geographical region as the MAAC. The article that is linked implied that the Horizon is spread out across the Mid West, and that’s not true. I don’t see what RMU gains with the MAAC or Horizon. I’m not sure why I even invested the time to think about this.
If I’m not mistaken, RMU already has sports in the MAAC (lacrosse, field hockey), and the top-to-bottom competition is a definite tick up from the NEC. It’s still a one-bid league, so I see your point, JAF. It’s maybe the difference between having a shot at an 11-13 seed (if they’re really good) versus a 15-16 with the status quo.
 

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If I’m not mistaken, RMU already has sports in the MAAC (lacrosse, field hockey), and the top-to-bottom competition is a definite tick up from the NEC. It’s still a one-bid league, so I see your point, JAF. It’s maybe the difference between having a shot at an 11-13 seed (if they’re really good) versus a 15-16 with the status quo.
Yea. How many times has the NEC been sent to Dayton for a 16v16 game? The MAAC gets sent there too but their ceiling is higher. Iona got an at large and Monmouth probably should have.
 

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Why is RMU leaving the NEC? Aside from the Horizon not being an “institutional” fit, the Horizon puts RMU in an entirely different geography. I don’t buy into the notion that basketball conferences are effective recruiting tools for non-athlete students, but Cleveland, Cincinnati, Indy, Detroit, Chicago and Milwaukee are easy drives from Pittsburgh.
Chicago is 8 hours from Pittsburgh, and Milwaukee is 600 miles, as far as St. Louis, and not at all an easy drive. I don't even want to mention going to Green Bay. That said, as has been pointed out, being in the MAAC (or Horizon), at least gives you a fighting chance of actually winning a game. No team from the NEC has ever advanced to the round of 32. That's the worst in D1. Even the lowly MEAC, and SWAC have advanced multiple times. While I doubt that Siena, Niagara, and Canisius are going to fill up Bobby Mo's arena, they are certainly more attractive opponents than the nobodies that make up the NEC. Agree that the MAAC having a similar footprint to the NEC makes it an easy move.
 

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RMU seems to have another problem, and that is football. As a poster on the Bucknell board pointed out, when Monmouth left for the MAAC, the NEC told them they were not welcome to remain as a football-only member. They struggled to find a league and ended up in the Big South. Presumably RMU has taken this into consideration, but it's certainly not clear where football will land.
 

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RMU seems to have another problem, and that is football. As a poster on the Bucknell board pointed out, when Monmouth left for the MAAC, the NEC told them they were not welcome to remain as a football-only member. They struggled to find a league and ended up in the Big South. Presumably RMU has taken this into consideration, but it's certainly not clear where football will land.
What a burden! If only there was an answer that could rid their university’s budget of bloated scholarship, staffing, facilities, travel, lodging, equipment, and insurance costs!
 

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What a burden! If only there was an answer that could rid their university’s budget of bloated scholarship, staffing, facilities, travel, lodging, equipment, and insurance costs!
LOL! Football is the 800 pound gorilla. There are fans at Duquesne that think the football program is a great thing, and who dream😴 of playing (and beating Pitt). We actually have a game coming up against WVU, which I think is 🤪crazy😵, but that's another story. These folks would be angry if we got rid of football. On the other side are the folks who see our level of football as a largely worthless financial drag, and would rather see that money put into other things, especially basketball.
You know, I've always thought you could make a decent conference out of the best of the MAAC, and the best of the Horizon, maybe even better if you could steal a team or two out of the America East.
 
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