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Discussion Starter #1
qVersion one was Donyell Marshall for Nazr Mohammed.

Version two, drawn up to work in the event of number one not working, was Eddie Robinson, Lonny Baxter and a second round pick for Aaron Williams and Rodney Rogers.

Version three was Jerome Williams for Shandon Anderson.

Version four was Chris Jefferies and Antonio Davis for Chris Mills, Michael Stewart, Jumaine Jones and a first round draft pick from Dallas (which, FWIW, later turned into Delonte West)

Version five was Antonio Davis, Frank Williams and Adrian Griffin for Aaron McKie, Brian Skinner and Kedrick Brown.

Version six was Antonio Davis and Chris Duhon for Mike Miller and Lorenzen Wright.

Version seven was Tim Thomas and Mike Sweetney for the same two.

(Incidentally, looking all those up, I rediscovered I've had some bangin' ideas in the past. Such as signing Damon Jones and Bobby Simmons for the minimum, back when no one knew who they were. I'm still looking for an NBA job, by the way. :eek8: )


And version 9 is as follows:


Tim Thomas
Darius Songaila
Eric Piatkowski

for

Kelvin Cato
Hedo Turkoglu
Pat Garrity



I haven't thought about this for very long, and it's probably very important to establish early that I don't see many reasons for Orlando to do this. That said, I will try and justify it for them. And for us.


Kelvin Cato is a solid center with a contract that is way too big for him, whom is rumoured to be available. He and Tony Battie are pretty much the Magic's center rotation right now. Both are solid rebounders, with no real offense. Both have multi million dollar contracts (Cato's is roughly $8.5 million, Battie's about $5.5 million) which expire after this season. And it is a bit redundant to have both. Cato is the better player and started almost all of last season, but has not done so this season, as he has been slow to recover from some offseason shoulder surgery.


Hedo Turkoglu is an impressively versatile player who is good at everything, and great at nothing. Playing in Europe as a point guard, he has played everywhere from 1-4 in the NBA, but works best as a small forward.



Pat Garrity shoots a fine long shot and pretty much blows buttchunks at everything else. Although he did posterize Tim Thomas once, which was fun.



Eric Piatkowski shoots the long shot about as well as anyone, but like Garrity, he's a bit useless at everything else. He does, however, have a contract that expires after this season.


Tim Thomas has good talent with a bad attitude. His most valuable aspect right now is his $14 million dollar expiring contract.


Darius Songaila last season was one of the league's better backup power forwards. A face up offensive player, he has good shooting and passing skills, but isn't a powerful player. He is only signed for one season, with an option on the second.




So why does everyone do everything:

Chicago knows that they ain't getting jack out of Tim Thomas on the court. They never wanted him in the first place, but recognised his value as an expiring contract, so were willing to accept him. Now the boy can play, and, for the first time in the last 5 years, his contract is no longer a burden, but an asset. Piatkowski is a useful non-rotation player, whose best asset once again is his expiring contract. Songaila can play, and his poor start to this season is not indicative of that. I have not included him because I have quit on him, but because I feel for this to happen, Orlando needs at least one rotation big man back. And as Sweetney and Chandler aren't available, it comes down to Othella or Songaila. Or even Nocioni. And I'd rather have Othella's leadership and Nocioni's ADD.

Orlando doubles the amount of cap relief they are to receive after this season which, for a team currently at 150% of the salary cap and a fair way short of the playoffs, comes in handy. They also get a fleeting audition of Tim Thomas, a man who can help them in their playoff push and whom is no real drop off, if any, from Turkoglu. He's not tied in to any kind of deal, meaning that if he flumps, he's out of their hair within weeks, and if he comes through, they get to bring him back on their terms. Pike can stick a shot or two for a team that doesn't have the most consistent shooting backcourt in the world, and again, he's gone as soon as they say the word. Songaila has some skills, and even if the Magic do not intend to use him as a starter (he's not very good as one, to be fair), Thomas could be one, or Outlaw could spot start there, or Battie is a useful starter. And besides, a starting power forward is an easy position to fill in this day and age.

(Note - this is all dependent on Howard playing center. Whcih he could do, with ease. Because he's damn good.)









Subsequent rotations:

Orlando

PG - Francis, Nelson, Diener
SG - Stevenson, Dooling, Augmon
SF - Hill, Thomas, Morris
PF - Songaila, Thomas, Outlaw
C - Howard, Battie, Outlaw, Kasun



Chicago

PG - Duhon, Hinrich, Pargo
SG - Hinrich, Gordon, Deng
SF - Turkeyglue, Deng, Nocioni
PF - Sweetney, Nocioni, Garrity
C - Chandler, Cato, Harrington, Allen





Problems:


Orlando just dedicated a lot of cheese and time to Turkeyglue. And he hasn't been a bust, he's been exactly what they anticipated. So why would they want to get rid of him? That, to me, is the real issue with this trade. I started looking at possible scenarios, not for Hedo, but for Cato. Him for Thomas was what I was working at, the rest is just essentials to make it work. The problem, though, is that Hedo is better than that. That's a starting wing man, or a fine 6th man, for not too bad of a price. Which neither the Magic want to get rid of, nor the Bulls particularly need. Unfortunately, I couldn't make it work any other way. With Cato earning a good $5 million ish less than Thomas, the only other way to do it is to include Battie as well. Which the Magic don't do, because then they are too weak up front. So I've had to try and find a rationale for including Hedo, that being cap relief.

With one of the NBA's highest payrolls this season, at about $75 million, the Magic only have 33 wins last season to show for it. They're on pace for roughly the same this time around. That's not very good, but they have little flexibility to do much about it. This trade, plus the expiraiton of Doug Christie and Battie's deal (amongst others), dips them under the cap next offseason. They also have their pick next year, figuring to be in the lottery, plus a couple of second rounders. They also have the ever improving Nelson and Howard, as well as a star in Francis, and the massive expiring contract of Grant Hill. Vazquez will also show up at some point. To do this trade, the Magic would have to adopt a definitive plan - one centered on rebuilding. Or retooling, if you will. Are they willing to do that? Dunno. But they already have the one piece that most teams would kill for in Dwight Howard. In no way are they stranded, or completely fudged. They just need to change a few things. I would argue that doing this gives them the flexibility to do so.

As for the Bulls, if you could think of a player who would be the most redundant on this roster, you might think of Turkoglu. You wouldn't be wrong, either. The Bulls in no way need a small forward, nor a shooter, nor a white guy. Turkoglu is all three. But like I said, the point here is Cato. The Bulls seem to be leaking some point son the inside right now, and go through faces where they get mullered on the boards. Cato is a big tough ******* who is tough to move once he gets position, and who performs consistently on the glass. He isn't very good offensively, but he's a true paint player. Which the Bulls could really use. Garrity is a throw in, whose contract has two years to run. The side effect of taking him (as well as Turkoglu), is losing a chunk of that mythical cap space they've worked so much to get hold of. Yet, if you can get two rotaiton players for some expendable pap and still have over $10 million free in cap space, plus two picks, are you not doing OK?




So I dunno. I would do it. The Magic more than likely wouldn't, but at least I tried to rationalise it. You may now take it in turns to line up and kick my idea in the face, as you have done 7 previous times. :naughty:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
You know, it's real annoying when you spend a lot of time writing summat long, then people go do that. It happened on RealGM, too. :naughty:
 

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ShamBulls said:
You know, it's real annoying when you spend a lot of time writing summat long, then people go do that. It happened on RealGM, too. :naughty:
Not to be rude, but you have way too much time on your hand to invest that much thought on a trade over 3 marginal players for 3 marginal players that won't contribute too much to either team.
 

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ztect said:
Not to be rude, but you have way too much time on your hand to invest that much thought on a trade over 3 marginal players for 3 marginal players that won't contribute too much to either team.
he's just throwin the idea out there

I think it's an alright trade... Cato is a decent center that is the big backup we need
... howerver his contract blows chunk monkey, and that would mess with what we could get over the summer... hedo is a great 3, but unfortunately that's the position that we're loaded at

so I would proly say no, however it isn't a totally out of the blue trade
 

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Sham,


I think that may be a idea if we are competing at the trade deadline. If not, I'll wait. Nice work though.
 

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I certainly appreciate the effort, god knows I've done the same and gotten similar response.

But I just don't see Orlando's side in this. Even with the additional cap relief of losing Hedo's contract, they aren't in a position to make a big splash in free agency, so the cap relief aspect isn't much of a help.

To put it differently, they can get two years of Hedo for one year of Thomas, and Hedo's probably Thomas with a good jib.

Garrity = Songaila with out the potentially irritating player option.

So that leaves trading Cato for... Pike.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
ztect said:
Not to be rude, but you have way too much time on your hand to invest that much thought on a trade over 3 marginal players for 3 marginal players that won't contribute too much to either team.


And you clearly had enough time to point out the fact that you think I have too much time.


Nice work. Brilliant. And whats more, very useful. :|
 

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Discussion Starter #11
chifaninca said:
Sham,


I think that may be a idea if we are competing at the trade deadline. If not, I'll wait. Nice work though.
It cannot be done until Christmas time anyway. I think I forgot to put that int he original post. By that time, we should have a clearer picture of whether both us and Orlando are making or missing the playoffs. If they're going back to the lottery, I think there's an increased chance that they bite on this.


To put it differently, they can get two years of Hedo for one year of Thomas, and Hedo's probably Thomas with a good jib.

Hedo's signed for 4 more years after this, for a total of roughly $26 million. That's my thinking behind this - even though he's not been a disappointment, Orlando may want to wriggle off of that if it turns out that they're headed for another 30 win season. For the Bulls, we really don't need a small forward, but in the long run, if Deng's serious about this shooting guard business, and if Nocioni really is that much better at power forward........then surely, we COULD use one?



Garrity = Songaila with out the potentially irritating player option.

That part isn't strictly true. Songaila is a significant step up from Garrity (he hasn't shown it in the 9 games this season, but his previous two seasons, he's shown to be a very competent backup). Garrity is oft injured, oen dimensional, and with a bad contract.





Junk for junk

What do you reckon the chances are of doing junk for greatness?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Cato is a decent center that is the big backup we need
... howerver his contract blows chunk monkey, and that would mess with what we could get over the summer...


I might have read that wrong, but it's an important part of the trade that Cato's contract is also an expiring one this offseason. So the cap space, whilst decreased a bit for Turkoglu, is alive.
 

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So the cap space, whilst decreased a bit for Turkoglu, is alive.
It would really lower the chance to get 2 impact players in the offseason. I wouldn't really want to trade for Turkoglu when you can get Peja in the offseason. Cato is a big, but i really don't think he'll be that wortwhile, as i share the same viewpoint as the quote below
"If Mario Kasun can provide anything in the middle, expect the Magic to put Tony Battie and Kelvin Cato on the market, centers who will be attractive more for their expiring contracts than any potential impact." hoopshype
 

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With the cap space, where would we get a better player for $5.7 million? We trade fringe pap for one of the two rotation players we need. We also get Cato, whom if he succeeds, could be the other. And still with several million, and two first rounders.
 

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A better player for $5.7 million... pretty much anywhere especially since Turkoglu is only averaging 11.8 pts a game this season in 33 mins. He really wouldn't be a piece that would help us significantly enough to justify to trade for him.
As for Cato, he's not even able to beat out Battie, i'd only pursue him as a last resort.
Garrity is the only player i dont mind in that trade, pity he's so injury prone though.

I'd rather use about half of our cap space next year (around 10 mill) and pursue Peja and with the rest try to obtain a big via trade (could include the likes of Deng and even a draft pick) or FA (Nazr Mohammed, etc).

The only trade i'd bother with is one for Pierce, other than that i'd rather sit on what we have and wait for the offseason.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
So we can't trade our pap for players who nightly score in the teens? How high are we aiming for Tim Thomas here?

Cato is suffering from a gimpy shoulder, which is why Battie is starting. I said this. By the tiem the trade can go down, late December, it will be better, and a non issue.

Seriously now, people are way overvaluing expiring contracts. Barring unprecedented miracle, Tim Thomas is not raking us back anything brilliant. Pike has so little value, it's arguably negative. It's not a tempting pairing. Which is why I feel that this si where it tops out.


Magic fans will agree with the sentiment that the Bulls aren't giving up anything nice on their behalf.
 

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Why trade the only thing we have for something mediocre in return. I see more success coming from TT actually trying in practice by late december than the outcome of this trade. But tahts just my opinion.
You could have Cato and Turkoglu now, or the likes of Peja and Mohammed in the offseason. This is why i believe we shouldn't really rush it, i can survive an average / bad season if we could acquire the latter players.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I would rather have Turkeyglue than Peja.


1) There's always the scenario that Peja doesn't opt out
2) Turkoglu is a lot more versatile, Peja is a one trick pony
3) He's younger and whiter
4) His jib is a cut above
5) I invision Deng and Turkey as a far more successful pairing than Deng and Peja could ever be.
6) Should it come to it, and it might, Hedo is a good 6th man. I don't believe Peja would be. I say that with incredibly little evidence to support me.
 
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