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Discussion Starter #1
Personally I think the whole big defensive Shooting Guard ideas have been way overblown around here...Hinrich does a better job than most "true" shooting guards in the NBA do defensively. And as Barkley says, "Who plays defense in this league anymore anyways?"

But with that said, Pax has some opportunities this summer to acquire a true shooting guard, and this isn't just for the sake of acquiring a 6'5/6'6 guy who can defender the bigger 2's around the NBA. This is because I see two rising stars at the SG position and it's a golden opportunity for the Bulls to upgrade their rotation, particularly in the backcourt. Enter Joe Johnson and Larry Hughes. Both have combo-guard abilities with solid ballhandling/passing and efficient scoring; both can run the point in spot duty. And both are still young enough to where they have 8 solid years ahead of them. The question is, what would it take to get one of these guys?

Joe Johnson is a restricted FA which means the Suns can offer him basically any contract they want...but they already have SO much money invested in Nash, Richardson, and Marion, and they will surely offer Stoudemire a maximum extension this summer. Like it or not, Johnson will be the odd man out unless he accepts a contract below his market value. Pax needs to jump on this with a sign-and-trade offer, and the centerpiece of the deal should be Hinrich (don't worry, this has nothing to do with the Bulls 5-0 record w/out Hinrich). Simply put, Joe Johnson is an overall upgrade to Hinrich...and I believe something like Hinrich + A. Davis for Joe Johnson (new contract starting @ $10 million) + Barbosa + filler would fit the bill. Why Hinrich? Well, because Hinrich has enough market value to get the Suns' attention, and he is a natural backcourt fit with Nash (D'Antoni wants Nash's minutes to lurk around 30 per game, which opens plenty of combo-guard duties for Hinrich in Phoenix). More importantly for Phoenix, they avoid losing Johnson for nothing and Davis' expiring contract should be attractive. The Bulls' backcourt rotation then becomes Gordon, Joe Johnson, Duhon, and Barbosa. Downright scary.

Hughes is an unrestricted FA, and Washington is all capped out just like Phoenix. They already have a ton of money tied up in Arenas and Jamison, and Hughes may be out of their price range. Similarly, Pax could offer Hinrich + AD in a sign-and-trade for Larry Hughes re-signed starting at $10 million or so per year (throw in fillers where necessary). The Bulls backcourt then becomes Gordon, Hughes, Duhon, and whoever gets thrown in from Washington (Blake?). Not quite as nice as the Phoenix deal, but still an upgrade.

I hate losing Hinrich since he's the heart and soul of this team, and this has nothing to do with his low FG% or the fact that the Bulls are surviving without him. This is because Hinrich has enough value to land us a bigtime shooting guard who can compliment Gordon and Duhon better. The Bulls have a chance to explode next year if a deal like this is made. And wouldn't you rather have Johnson or Hughes over Hinrich?
 

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First, I dont mind trading Hinrich or Gordon or Nocioni or even Chandler. The only player who i think is the hardest to replace is Curry. Anyhow, here is my question.

What can this group Johnson, Duhon, Gordon, and Barbosa produce that this group, Hinrich, Gordon, Duhon, and Pargo can't?

I would love to get Johnson but losing both Hinrich and our cap for 2006 is too much. As far as Hughes, i am very impressed of his season so far. I should have tried to trade for him for my fantasy team. Ok back to my point, do we want to lose that much for either one while what we are having now is working and working quite well?

If i had to make a trade for either one, i would do something like this. Nocioni and Davis for either deal since we already have Deng and either Joe Johnson or Hughes can switch to SF. So we are just losing our 2006 cap. If the combo of Hinrich-Gordon-Johnson or Hughes worked, then i would stick with that. If not, i would have an extra piece next February to make a trade.

In that case, we could use our MLE on Yell, Dale Davis, or someone.
 

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This is going to start a major war, I fear.

Regardless, I'd do the Phoenix trade if it turned out like you have it here: Barbosa is a WONDERFUL throw-in there and the backcout of Gordon/Johnson/Barbosa/Duhon is inexplicably good. No brainer...though I would sorely miss Hinrich and all he's done for this team this year.

For that reason, I wouldn't do the Washington trade without a better throw-in than Blake even though I can't deny that Larry Hughes would indeed fit with Ben Gordon very well in the backcourt. Intangibly, though, Hinrich adds more to the Bulls as a captain and a leader and a franchise 'face' than Hughes/Blake would bring...if barely.

I'm not hating Kirk nor am I worshipping JJ, Hughes, or Gordon...but if Gordon's untouchable, I do think we at least owe it to ourselves to look at trades like this that might increase his value and put him on the floor more often.
 

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yodurk said:
Personally I think the whole big defensive Shooting Guard ideas have been way overblown around here...Hinrich does a better job than most "true" shooting guards in the NBA do defensively. And as Barkley says, "Who plays defense in this league anymore anyways?"

But with that said, Pax has some opportunities this summer to acquire a true shooting guard, and this isn't just for the sake of acquiring a 6'5/6'6 guy who can defender the bigger 2's around the NBA. This is because I see two rising stars at the SG position and it's a golden opportunity for the Bulls to upgrade their rotation, particularly in the backcourt. Enter Joe Johnson and Larry Hughes. Both have combo-guard abilities with solid ballhandling/passing and efficient scoring; both can run the point in spot duty. And both are still young enough to where they have 8 solid years ahead of them. The question is, what would it take to get one of these guys?

Joe Johnson is a restricted FA which means the Suns can offer him basically any contract they want...but they already have SO much money invested in Nash, Richardson, and Marion, and they will surely offer Stoudemire a maximum extension this summer. Like it or not, Johnson will be the odd man out unless he accepts a contract below his market value. Pax needs to jump on this with a sign-and-trade offer, and the centerpiece of the deal should be Hinrich (don't worry, this has nothing to do with the Bulls 5-0 record w/out Hinrich). Simply put, Joe Johnson is an overall upgrade to Hinrich...and I believe something like Hinrich + A. Davis for Joe Johnson (new contract starting @ $10 million) + Barbosa + filler would fit the bill. Why Hinrich? Well, because Hinrich has enough market value to get the Suns' attention, and he is a natural backcourt fit with Nash (D'Antoni wants Nash's minutes to lurk around 30 per game, which opens plenty of combo-guard duties for Hinrich in Phoenix). More importantly for Phoenix, they avoid losing Johnson for nothing and Davis' expiring contract should be attractive. The Bulls' backcourt rotation then becomes Gordon, Joe Johnson, Duhon, and Barbosa. Downright scary.

Hughes is an unrestricted FA, and Washington is all capped out just like Phoenix. They already have a ton of money tied up in Arenas and Jamison, and Hughes may be out of their price range. Similarly, Pax could offer Hinrich + AD in a sign-and-trade for Larry Hughes re-signed starting at $10 million or so per year (throw in fillers where necessary). The Bulls backcourt then becomes Gordon, Hughes, Duhon, and whoever gets thrown in from Washington (Blake?). Not quite as nice as the Phoenix deal, but still an upgrade.

I hate losing Hinrich since he's the heart and soul of this team, and this has nothing to do with his low FG% or the fact that the Bulls are surviving without him. This is because Hinrich has enough value to land us a bigtime shooting guard who can compliment Gordon and Duhon better. The Bulls have a chance to explode next year if a deal like this is made. And wouldn't you rather have Johnson or Hughes over Hinrich?
I like your idea, but I hate the thought of losing a guy that came to Chicago and turned around its culture. Will Johnson and Hughes be able to replace the "intangibles"? I don't know.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Nice responses. To answer the first question posed, I definitely think the in-principle trade of Hinrich for Joe Johnson improves this team. This Bulls team is scrappy, really scrappy actually. We have plenty of players who do the "little things", such as Duhon, Nocioni, Deng, Harrington, Chandler, and most of all Kirk Hinrich. That's part of what makes this team special...it's so hard to find teams that have this many guys willing to do the dirty work. But a major flaw in this team's formula is that we need at least 1 more guy to do the "big things", i.e. putting up points; right now it's basically just Gordon and Curry who do this regularly. By sacrificing Hinrich, I think the Bulls still have more than enough players to do the little things, and getting Joe Johnson gives this team a 3rd [efficient] scorer that it so desparately needs. When you add it all up, I think this is a big step in the right direction for the Bulls. I think they maintain their defensive intensity while bumping up the team's scoring. The whole Joe Johnson situation this summer should be interesting...I really don't see how Phoenix can afford to keep him with Nash, Marion, and soon-to-be Amare all under gigantic deals, with Richardson also on a sizeable deal.
 

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yodurk said:
But a major flaw in this team's formula is that we need at least 1 more guy to do the "big things", i.e. putting up points; right now it's basically just Gordon and Curry who do this regularly. By sacrificing Hinrich, I think the Bulls still have more than enough players to do the little things, and getting Joe Johnson gives this team a 3rd [efficient] scorer that it so desparately needs.

forget how you guys perceive me, and my "feelings" about kirk, but:

i think you are selling deng really short. i think with one nba season under his belt, and barring injury, that luol deng will become one more of the guys who do big things (ie: score with regularity) while continuing to be scrappy and play the kind of defense that has gotten this team where it is today. i think he already has a better ALL AROUND game than ben.

i don't think we need to "sacrifice" kirk in order to accomplish what we need. we need to augment, not subtract.

just my measly little 2 cents. carry on, those who would be pax.
 

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The problem with many trade proposals posters throw out is that they only look at them from their own team's point of view. I'm one of the biggest Hinrich fans on this board, but I see no reason why Phoenix would trade for him when they already have Steve Nash running the team and, if Johnson leaves, would probaly simply move Richardson to the starting shooting guard. Hinrich wouldn't be a starter there, unless they wanted to keep Richardson at the small forward, Marion at the PF and Stoudemire at C, and plug Hinrich in alongside Nash. It is my understanding that Phoenix really wants to re-sign Johnson, anyway. If the Bulls want Johnson, they will have to offer Phoenix Curry or Chandler.

Washington would face a similar question of whether Hinrich and Arenas would be a good starting backcourt. Because he and Arenas work so well together, I see the Wizards doing everything possible to keep Hughes. Because Hughes is an unrestricted FA, the Bulls would likely have a better chance of offering him a huge deal that Washington can't/won't match.

I am in the camp of keeping the Bulls young core together and signing a veteran SG for part of the MLE. Someone like Raja Bell, who is a very good defender and a good shooter, and who won't need the ball that much or scream if he only plays 25 minutes per game. Then try and bring in a young big guard who might not get drafted, like Eddie Basden (Charlotte - he's projected as being a late 2nd rounder, but could go undrafted) or Alan Anderson (Mich. State - another possible late 2nd rounder), who has shown himself to be a strong defender in college and can be worked into the rotation slowly.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
girlygirl said:
The problem with many trade proposals posters throw out is that they only look at them from their own team's point of view. I'm one of the biggest Hinrich fans on this board, but I see no reason why Phoenix would trade for him when they already have Steve Nash running the team and, if Johnson leaves, would probaly simply move Richardson to the starting shooting guard. Hinrich wouldn't be a starter there, unless they wanted to keep Richardson at the small forward, Marion at the PF and Stoudemire at C, and plug Hinrich in alongside Nash. It is my understanding that Phoenix really wants to re-sign Johnson, anyway. If the Bulls want Johnson, they will have to offer Phoenix Curry or Chandler.

Washington would face a similar question of whether Hinrich and Arenas would be a good starting backcourt. Because he and Arenas work so well together, I see the Wizards doing everything possible to keep Hughes. Because Hughes is an unrestricted FA, the Bulls would likely have a better chance of offering him a huge deal that Washington can't/won't match.

I am in the camp of keeping the Bulls young core together and signing a veteran SG for part of the MLE. Someone like Raja Bell, who is a very good defender and a good shooter, and who won't need the ball that much or scream if he only plays 25 minutes per game. Then try and bring in a young big guard who might not get drafted, like Eddie Basden (Charlotte - he's projected as being a late 2nd rounder, but could go undrafted) or Alan Anderson (Mich. State - another possible late 2nd rounder), who has shown himself to be a strong defender in college and can be worked into the rotation slowly.

I thought I addressed most of that in my previous post(s)...I have a very hard time seeing how Phoenix can afford to pay for Johnson. He'll demand a near-max salary, and they already have 2 max-type salaries going to Nash and Marion, plus 1 more going to Amare this summer. Not to mention Richardson's large contract. That's alot of money to throw at 4 perimeter players and 1 big man...and I have serious doubts about the Suns' ability to play small ball long term. Marion at PF? Amare at C? It's worked so far, but c'mon, those guys will take some serious poundings from the normal size bigs around the league.

Anyway, another point I hit on is that Nash is not a 40 min/game point guard...he has serious durability issues if his minutes are much more than 32/game, and this is why D'Antoni has publicly expressed his desire to play Nash less. With Hinrich, they have a reliable 2nd PG who can run the show, plus they can throw Nash and Hinrich out there together in stints. Hinrich of course would be doing this off the bench, but he would still be a 30 min/game guy himself. With Antonio Davis as the "filler", they also get an actual big man of which the Suns have few, not to mention his expiring contract. So what's not to like? All that for Joe Johnson + filler seems like a nice package to me. I very hardly throw out trade proposals, but I think this is one that would get the Suns' attention, especially since it helps them avoid paying yet another max salary.
 

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Quite simply, giving up Hinrich for anything less than a superstar, who is a very good leader to boot (believe it or not this narrows the list quite a bit)....is insane.
 
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