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OK, I need to declare up front.

I wasn't a "fire Cartwright" guy, though I did say that, if the Bulls winning percentage ever (after the first few weeks of the season) dropped below .250, I'd fire the coach. Paxson pulled the trigger just before this happened.

I don't blame Pax for firing Cartwright and I like Skiles. However, a lot of posts I read talk about how Eddy, Jamal, Marcus, etc. need a more development-oriented coach (like Cartwright) as opposed to a more "win now" coach (like Skiles).

Given that the dreams of making the playoffs this season have been dashed and patience and development have again become the priorities, would the Bulls be better off with Cartwright at the helm?
 

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The only things Cartwright was developing were tenativeness and a losing attitude. We needed the change.
 

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Personally, I'd flip flop their roles. I think Skiles is doing an AMAZING job developing our guys, and Cartwright was overly set on win now (with his complete refusal to play Jay and Jamal together at points last season.)
 

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Originally posted by <b>airety</b>!
Personally, I'd flip flop their roles. I think Skiles is doing an AMAZING job developing our guys, and Cartwright was overly set on win now (with his complete refusal to play Jay and Jamal together at points last season.)
what airety said.


hey what happened to your weird avatar? i thought it was hilarious!
 

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I liked what KC said: Make the trade, or fire Cartwright.

We never know what he might have been able to do with more defenders---and minus Rose (especially) and Donyell.
 

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I never slice.
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I'm on record as a Cartwright supporter, and based on what we know I believe the Bulls would have been just fine (I can't say "better off" than with Skiles because I haven't made up my mind about Skiles yet) with Cartwright as head coach.

Cartwright was teaching the Bulls young players how to be men. You all can scoff at that notion if you like, but that's the way I see it. He was teaching them to be accountable for their play, and in fact for their careers. He was tough-- but held no grudges. There was an interesting article in the Trib the other day about Tom Crean and his Marquette team-- what he did after their loss in the NCAA semi-finals last spring and how the team responded in the first days of the off-season. It's still on the web site here

To this day I do not understand why Pax would make two such significant changes within days of each other. Rose obviously didn't fit either Paxson's or Cartwright's idea of the type of player that was going to make the Bulls successful-- why not make the trade and see what BC could do with some tough-minded players who know how to play some defense?

I would put two caveats on this, however:

1) Sooo much of coaching is done behind closed doors and I am willing to allow for the possibility that there was some fatal flaw that Paxson identified-- not unlike Jerry Krause identified what he perceived to be a fatel flaw in Doug Collins-- that caused him feel that BC was not the guy to lead the Bulls.

2) I would allow for the possibility that BC's voice may have been more of an issue than was made public. The plain fact is I don't see any way BC could be heard from the sidelines during games. Maybe someone who has sat courtside at the UC could comment? I think this was part of the reason he developed that scowl and people here were so quick to pick up on it. Did anyone happen to catch the article in the Trib a week or two ago about Ohio State coach Jim O'Brien? It basically detailed how he had throat surgery which left one of his vocal chords paralyzed and left him unable to speak with any volume in his voice. He was quoted as saying if it doesn't improve, it would be unrealistic for him to expect to be able to continue his coaching career. I don't know how much louder BC was able to speak that O'Brien, but as I said I still think it may have been a factor.
 

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Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!


what airety said.


hey what happened to your weird avatar? i thought it was hilarious!
I didn't want to make people gag too much. I'll change this one once I find a new entertaining one.
 

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It really doesn't matter who coaches this team. The result will be the same. Simply put, these guys are all frauds. Lottery picks that are busts. While everyone else has found gold mines, we've been stuck with lead. We have a group of below average players that occasionally have a "break out" type game that fools us into thinking that there's more ahead. Consistently.... We're waiting to see consistency, but I have a feeling that we'll never see it from these current crop.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!

2) I would allow for the possibility that BC's voice may have been more of an issue than was made public. The plain fact is I don't see any way BC could be heard from the sidelines during games. Maybe someone who has sat courtside at the UC could comment? I think this was part of the reason he developed that scowl and people here were so quick to pick up on it. Did anyone happen to catch the article in the Trib a week or two ago about Ohio State coach Jim O'Brien? It basically detailed how he had throat surgery which left one of his vocal chords paralyzed and left him unable to speak with any volume in his voice. He was quoted as saying if it doesn't improve, it would be unrealistic for him to expect to be able to continue his coaching career. I don't know how much louder BC was able to speak that O'Brien, but as I said I still think it may have been a factor.
From what I could see, his biggest flaw was communicating in general on the court. Not just with his voice, but in the couple of games I saw (and sometimes on TV), I didn't like what I saw of his in-game management. He'd call a timeout and then look wholly unprepared to say anything for it and waste half the time diagraming a play while the players stood seperately doing nothing. That kind of stuff struck me as pretty unimpressive.... every second counts and he generally didn't make the most of them.

That's the one clear difference you can see with Skiles. I haven't seen him coach in person yet, but he's continually in motion on the sidelines, and looks continually into it. The couple times I've seen a huddle, he's talking the players up from start to finish, telling them and showing them where to go. He just looks a whole lot quicker on his feet in that respect.
 

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We should have fired Cartwright

But we shouldn't of hired Skiles
 

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Originally posted by <b>MirageRon</b>!
It really doesn't matter who coaches this team. The result will be the same. Simply put, these guys are all frauds. Lottery picks that are busts. While everyone else has found gold mines, we've been stuck with lead. We have a group of below average players that occasionally have a "break out" type game that fools us into thinking that there's more ahead. Consistently.... We're waiting to see consistency, but I have a feeling that we'll never see it from these current crop.
We drafted project players...thats what they are, not busts.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!


From what I could see, his biggest flaw was communicating in general on the court. Not just with his voice, but in the couple of games I saw (and sometimes on TV), I didn't like what I saw of his in-game management. He'd call a timeout and then look wholly unprepared to say anything for it and waste half the time diagraming a play while the players stood seperately doing nothing. That kind of stuff struck me as pretty unimpressive.... every second counts and he generally didn't make the most of them.

That's the one clear difference you can see with Skiles. I haven't seen him coach in person yet, but he's continually in motion on the sidelines, and looks continually into it. The couple times I've seen a huddle, he's talking the players up from start to finish, telling them and showing them where to go. He just looks a whole lot quicker on his feet in that respect.
I agree completely. I noticed this too many times to count and was like "what the hell is he doing".
 

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the bulls should have kept mr. bill.

its that simple , the bulls as of now are completely unprepared for the way they play because of ego .

pax's and skiles'

they both are trying so hard to make their stamp on things , that they are failing to improve on whats already there. the bulls ahd a foundation and it was/is a good one but both are intent on doing things their way to the point its counterproductive

look at the knicks they are in disarray because too much is being done too soon.

the bulls had problems with conditioning but on the whole management failed to realize it even though the young players were at the berto for much of the summer , how can that be?

andf more importantly how is that cartwright's fault , he didn't hire the trainers or conditiong coach(or the asst. coaches) and it was done under the watchful eye of jonny pax who was at the berto i dont remember hearing too much if anything about cartwright being there because its generally the domain of the assistants in thre summer.

Skiles scrapped the triangle and other various offenses and instituted 6 plays all of which are very simple ,easy to do and easy to scout so conversely hard to execute for easy scores

so the bulls play better defense with the trade of rose and yell but counldn't score if left alone in a brothel when it counts,unless the one player who is occasionally unstoppable has a great game and that happens far to infrequently for a substantial jump in wins at this point.

there is no need for hindsight being 20/20 it was a bad idea to remove cartwright because he ran a sys. of accountability and that is what these bulls need more than anything else and this season will prove he was right and basically almost everyone else was wrong .....guess that degree in psyhcology was worth something after all
 
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