Professional and College Basketball Forums banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
It is interesting seeing the sign-and-trade talks regarding Rashard Lewis. Basically Lewis is a FA. He can go wherever he wants.

So if he doesn't want to go to the Bulls, then he can't be forced to do a sign and trade. If he really wants to go to the bulls, then he can try and force a sign-and-trade.

I say this because I dont like the idea of giving up Fizer AND Crawford for him. Sign-and-Trades aren't supposed to be about equal value. Lewis pretty much says that he'll go to the Bulls for the mid-level exception but tells the Sonics that he wants more money, so the sonics can sign and trade and at least get SOMETHING in return. Not necessarily equal value since Lewis is an unrestricted FA and holds the power.

And if I were Lewis, I wouldn't want the new team I am going to to lose two good players.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,118 Posts
He makes Fizer pretty much obsolete.

Crawford doesn't look like he would contribute much if Lewis signs and pushes Jalen and ERob over to SG permanently.

They would have to go in a Lewis scenario.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,184 Posts
for Jerry Krause, a sign and trade is not about getting equal value -- see Scottie Pippen trade.

for everyone else in the league, they want to get back good value.

the question is, how much value does Rashard Lewis REALLY have?? in four years in the league, the most he's ever averaged is under 17 points per game. are we supposed to believe that just because he is a guy who jumped straight from HS that he's therefore an otherwordly talent?

what Rashard's got going in his favor is a recent string of straight from high school success stories. after four years, guys like Garnett and Bryant were playing major minutes, and putting up more than 20 ppg. Jermaine O'Neal didn't play any major minutes until he got to Indiana, but once he did, he started putting up good stats as well

Rashard HAS played major minutes for the Sonics the last two years. his scoring average increased, naturally, but to a modest 16 ppg. not exactly all-star material.

what about intangibles? from what i've seen and heard (albeit, some heresay) he hasn't demonstrated the ability or desire to put a team on his back and will it to victory.

what he has is youth, athleticism, and a very good shooting stroke. i suppose that makes him the same player we all thought we were getting in Eddie Robinson... but that's another rant.

my point is this: What Rashard Lewis has shown me so far is that he's flat out NOT worth a max contract, and may never be worth one. Further, he's NOT worth trading two lottery picks for.

end of story.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,118 Posts
Is he worth more than ERob? I would hope so considering ERob was averaging about 7ppg when he signed his deal and was never even a starter. Lewis has shown a lot more while being younger and $8M to $10M is fair in the current market. This is considering a couple of years a go he would have been a lock to get the max. Hell, KVH got the max somehow a couple years ago.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,184 Posts
is he worth more than ERob... i can say without hesitation, yes.


i think the unfortunate situation in the NBA is that any young athletic player is automatically assumed to be worth the max...
and SOME team out there WILL pay this hypothetical young athletic player the max

in this situation, Rashard will get max pay.

i just don't think that his current level of play merits that size contract.

what I'd say is this: ERob is overpayed. even if he was healthy all of last season, and played to his optimum level, he's still getting payed more than he's worth on court.

Rashard is probably worth just about what ERob is getting payed.

in my idealized universe of people getting paid for what they produce in professional sports -- Eddie Robinson's contract is appropriate for a player like Rashard Lewis
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Why does lewis make fizer obsolete? Lewis is more of a SF/Big SG. Fizer is more of a PF.

And he doesn't make jamal obsolete either. Jamal can play the pg, and we dont even know if Jwil is gonna get the bulk of the pg minutes yet. Jwil is still gonna be a rookie and may not be able to play 35+ mpg. And best probably wont stay with the bulls.

Erob is still a question mark, so we can't depend on him.

Anyways, the point isn't necessarily that we will keep everyone PLUS getting Lewis. The point is that we shouldn't have to give them to the Sonics if Lewis is adamant about coming here.

We can use these young prospects as trade bait for someone else instead of wasting it.

Again, Rashard has a choice in where he ends up depeding on how much money he really wants. If he really wants to join a young, up-and-coming team he can try and force a sign-and-trade. We can trade something for salary cap purposes, but I dont think we have to give equal value in terms of talent.
 

·
Turned Thabo Fanatic
Joined
·
751 Posts
Originally posted by Dr. Kerr
Why does lewis make fizer obsolete? Lewis is more of a SF/Big SG. Fizer is more of a PF.

And he doesn't make jamal obsolete either. Jamal can play the pg, and we dont even know if Jwil is gonna get the bulk of the pg minutes yet. Jwil is still gonna be a rookie and may not be able to play 35+ mpg. And best probably wont stay with the bulls.

Erob is still a question mark, so we can't depend on him.

Anyways, the point isn't necessarily that we will keep everyone PLUS getting Lewis. The point is that we shouldn't have to give them to the Sonics if Lewis is adamant about coming here.

We can use these young prospects as trade bait for someone else instead of wasting it.

Again, Rashard has a choice in where he ends up depeding on how much money he really wants. If he really wants to join a young, up-and-coming team he can try and force a sign-and-trade. We can trade something for salary cap purposes, but I dont think we have to give equal value in terms of talent.
I agree that Lewis doesn't make Fizer or Crawford obsolete, good point. Also Erob is obviously not someone to rely on at this point.

However, my question then is why would Seattle want to do the sign and trade if they are taking on a lot of salary without getting much talent? I'd think they'd prefer to save the cap space than to take on bad contracts so that Lewis can get his money and walk away, especially in this era of the luxury tax. If I were Seattle I would refuse to do a sign and trade unless I got very good talent in return. They should offer Lewis a contract well above the mid-level exception but also well below the maximum. If Lewis walks for a mid-level exception somewhere else (doubtful), it's still better than paying him the max or taking back bad contracts.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,118 Posts
I can't think of any position or scenario that Fizer is better than Lewis.

Lewis is the better scorer, shooter, rebounder, defender, ball handler, and post player. He can defend players Fizer has absolutely no chance against.

I am not sure how you play Fizer with Lewis on the squad but I am talking Fizer with a self proclaimed Fizer fanatic. What's the point, I guess.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,118 Posts
Thankfully.

I am talking about consolidation of talent rather than thinking talent can be had for free.

Rashard Lewis can replicate everything Fizer can give to the Bulls and he can do it better. Losing Fizer to gain Lewis is a no-brainer. Adding Lewis also pushes any hope Crawford had of starting at SG for minutes out the door. Depth at the 2 and 3 would be provided by Hassel, who is cheap and defensive minded, and ERob, who is not going anywhere with his contract and his questionable health. Rose could easily slide to 3 and Lewis could easily slide to 4 in a rotation involving Hassel and ERob.

It makes too much sense.
 

·
A!
Joined
·
9,434 Posts
Originally posted by BCH
It makes too much sense.
That's why this trade isn't going to happen. Krause has spent too much time and energy defending Jamal and saying how great he is, to trade him now. Same with E-Rob. Krause isn't going to admit that he made a mistake by drafting Jamal or signing E-Rob. He wants them to prove what they can do on the court before he does anything dumb...... When was the last time Krause traded someone who had yet to prove what they are capable of doing?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,118 Posts
I agree with ERob not being moved. I think Jamal is still being considered. I think what is happening is that the press is starting to develop expectations for the Bulls. In years past Krause has been able to fly in under the radar for the most part because it was preordained by the media they would suck. He was able to do what he felt he had to do. Now that the media is starting to make their usual predictions, Krause is getting put in a situation where he may be forced to move Jamal for a better chance this year.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
58,359 Posts
Originally posted by BCH
I agree with ERob not being moved. I think Jamal is still being considered. I think what is happening is that the press is starting to develop expectations for the Bulls. In years past Krause has been able to fly in under the radar for the most part because it was preordained by the media they would suck. He was able to do what he felt he had to do. Now that the media is starting to make their usual predictions, Krause is getting put in a situation where he may be forced to move Jamal for a better chance this year.
That could a possible choice. Maybe not now but by trade deadline. According to Chicago media, a trade of Fizer AND Crawford for Mike Miller was turned down by the bulls. JK wanted to keep Crawford. But i will not say JK won't trade him. Especially if the right trade comes along.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,118 Posts
JC's trade value could very well be almost nothing by the trade deadline, look at what the Warriors were eventually forced to get for Marc Jackson.

If JC plays and the Bulls suck, JC won't have much value at the deadline in my opinion. If JC rides pine like Marc Jackson did after the Warriors kept him, then Krause can expect pretty much to get what the GSW got for Jackson. Squadoosh.
 

·
A!
Joined
·
9,434 Posts
I don't agree with that BCH. Jamal's highest trade value was actually while he was injured. If he doesn't get much of an opportunity, his value will still be high because he has great "potential"
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
58,359 Posts
Originally posted by BCH
JC's trade value could very well be almost nothing by the trade deadline, look at what the Warriors were eventually forced to get for Marc Jackson.

If JC plays and the Bulls ****, JC won't have much value at the deadline in my opinion. If JC rides pine like Marc Jackson did after the Warriors kept him, then Krause can expect pretty much to get what the GSW got for Jackson. Squadoosh.
Possible. I won't argue that. Anything is possible since the season hasn't begun yet. Alot could happen between now and deadline.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,118 Posts
That is not going to fly because he would be sitting out because of his inability to contribute, not because of injury. This is still the same guy that got beat out by El-Amin. And before people cry about his lack of minutes his first year, go back and take a loot. He actually played minutes that is common for rookies.

If he sits behind JWill or moves over to the SG spot, especially as a SG with limited off the bench minutes behind Hassel, his stock is going to plummet.
 

·
A!
Joined
·
9,434 Posts
I don't agree with that. There is no shame in coming off the bench behind the Nation's College player of the year. I don't see his stock falling because of that.....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,118 Posts
When he has been as hyped as he has been, and when he has 2 more years of NBA experience, plus the backing of the GM, I would think there is going to be a fair amount of stigma associated with it.

That is the price Krause pays for pushing his players like he does.

Of course, Krause probably made his declaration of JC being the starter to buoy his stock until a trade is made. Once that happens, I would expect Bulls fans in general to bash him much like they did Brand. The reigning theme of said bashing is probably going to be about how he got beat out by El Amin and Williams.
 

·
A!
Joined
·
9,434 Posts
No one was bashing Brand, but we were making excuses to make ourselves feel better about the trade. There is really no use for sulking....
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top