Professional and College Basketball Forums banner

1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,371 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
He was getting bashed alot earlier in the year by lots of us posters, I never really got too watch him play so sort of kept my mouth shot but as of late his numbers have improved drastically. It is reminding me of a few years ago when we sort of *gasp* relied on his offence! He has lead us in scoring a few times and been up there in a couple more. so what is the word on this former 6th man of the year. Is he a keeper?
 

·
*Floor General*
Joined
·
7,589 Posts
Originally posted by <b>KABI</b>!
He was getting bashed alot earlier in the year by lots of us posters, I never really got too watch him play so sort of kept my mouth shot but as of late his numbers have improved drastically. It is reminding me of a few years ago when we sort of *gasp* relied on his offence! He has lead us in scoring a few times and been up there in a couple more. so what is the word on this former 6th man of the year. Is he a keeper?
I'm 95% sure I want to keep him, but I also want to keep Memo. I'm not sure how much money Memo will command this off-season, but everything I have been hearing has been saying that we need to clear either Chucky's or Corliss' contract off the books to retain Memo. So in my eyes it comes down to either Corliss or Chucky and right now I can't pick between those two. I really hope there is a way we can re-sign Memo and at the same time keep Corliss and Chucky, I really do.

Corliss and Chucky both mean a lot to this team. Corliss is our most reliable low post scorer and Chucky always brings energy and timely 3-pointers.
 

·
Hokeamaniac
Joined
·
5,775 Posts
I like Corliss, as I'm usually the one sticking up for the guy.

I just wish he would make those easy layups that he seems to miss on a regular basis.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,552 Posts
Corliss is the only guy who can seemingly regularly miss layups and still shoot 48% the field.

Despite all the shots he seems to miss, he leads the team in FG% by a sizeable margin.

It's easy to get frustrated with him, but he does bring a lot to the team. He has great post moves which allows him to be an effective backup PF even at 6'7". If Corliss could do what he does now at 7'0" he'd be a Tim Duncan like scorer.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,533 Posts
He´s a great boost off the bench, he knows how to take his shots and he makes most of them. I think the pistons should hold on to him if it is possible...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
316 Posts
He's a very valuable member of the team and, situationally, a devestating weapon off the bench. However, he does not have a good contract (18 million over the next three years is a lot to pay for 9-12 points off the bench). He's also our only bad contract (though an argument could be made that Rip is overpaid also at 9.34 million a season (average) over the next six seasons). Usually, a team can afford one poor contract if it has been careful elsewhere and the player nearly lives up to his price tag. If possible, it'd be good to keep Corliss around. However, I'd assume that within a couple years he'll have outlived his usefulness, since Darko should be at least an adequate post presence offensively by that point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
427 Posts
I got really frustrated with his play earlier in the year, but he has been playing much better lately. He hasn't been throwing up as many bad shots, he's turning it over less, and he's stopped making so many dumb fouls. Still not my favorite player, but I don't mind as much when I see him checking into the game.

everything I have been hearing has been saying that we need to clear either Chucky's or Corliss' contract off the books to retain Memo.
I'm not sure that's true. Elden is getting paid like $4.5 mil next season, and he is much more expendable than Chucky or Corliss, especially if Darko is able to play 10-15 min a game next season at the 5 (which he had better be.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
385 Posts
No one has mentioned Corliss defense.
He is the worst defender on the team.
He is possibly the worst rebounding "big man" in the league as well.
Corliss is a type of player who can be successfull if put in the correct situation. Otherwise he can be a huge liablity.
I can not understand why he has been in the game in crunch time lately.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,552 Posts
When Corliss plays the 4 he is a much better defender than when playing small forward.

He can't rebound, but he is a smart defender in the post.
 

·
*Floor General*
Joined
·
7,589 Posts
Originally posted by <b>D.Spartan</b>!
No one has mentioned Corliss defense.
He is the worst defender on the team.
He is possibly the worst rebounding "big man" in the league as well.
Corliss is a type of player who can be successfull if put in the correct situation. Otherwise he can be a huge liablity.
I can not understand why he has been in the game in crunch time lately.
Corliss has been playing great in the fourth. He still misses his layups, but like it or not he's our best low post threat and in all honestly problay our most efficient scorer. Sometimes he gets out of control and shoots too much, but when he's under control, he a scoring machine.
 

·
*Floor General*
Joined
·
7,589 Posts
Originally posted by <b>fear the fro</b>!



I'm not sure that's true. Elden is getting paid like $4.5 mil next season, and he is much more expendable than Chucky or Corliss, especially if Darko is able to play 10-15 min a game next season at the 5 (which he had better be.)
Darko being ready is a big if and even though Elden may be on his last legs and more expendable. Getting rid of him will leave us with only Ben, Darko, and Memo.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
316 Posts
Leaving Brown with only Memo, Ben and Darko may be the best option for Joe Dumars to ensure playing time for his prize draft pick come next season. Coach may be able to get 48 minutes a game out of Ben, but not Memo :D He's have to give Darko some time!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
316 Posts
Unfortunately, I do not share your confidence there. I think Darko is stuck in an unfortunate catch-22 right now. Brown will only play those who have proven themselves ready. He feels you can only prove yourself by helping your team win games. This requires playing, but Darko doesn't play because he hasn't proven himself, and so on... Call it crazy, but there is historical evidence to back it up. Remember the Larry Hughes fiasco? And now he's got a team that, to his mind, has a chance at winning it all! No way he's gonna stuff that up by playing some untried foreign rookie when he's got a 35 year old veteran with hundreds of games under his belt. And if the veteran is not producing and playing, just imagine how much worse an untried rookie would do!

Of course, there are certain problems with this line of reasoning.. First, Darko has more talent than Elden ever had, and far more talent than the old Elden we've got has. Five minutes a game is unlikely to affect the outcome much one way or the other. And this team, realistically, is not a strong title contender this year. We have no post presence offensively, so we live and die by the guards, and come playoffs, eventually you die (unless one of your guards is HOF level - Jordan, Thomas, etc.). Still, my hunch is that that is the way Brown is thinking.
 

·
*Floor General*
Joined
·
7,589 Posts
Originally posted by <b>JustinSane</b>!
Unfortunately, I do not share your confidence there. I think Darko is stuck in an unfortunate catch-22 right now. Brown will only play those who have proven themselves ready. He feels you can only prove yourself by helping your team win games. This requires playing, but Darko doesn't play because he hasn't proven himself, and so on... Call it crazy, but there is historical evidence to back it up. Remember the Larry Hughes fiasco? And now he's got a team that, to his mind, has a chance at winning it all! No way he's gonna stuff that up by playing some untried foreign rookie when he's got a 35 year old veteran with hundreds of games under his belt. And if the veteran is not producing and playing, just imagine how much worse an untried rookie would do!
Is that sarcasm... Because I don't see anything wrong with that. Darko is not ready, he would get eaten alive if he played meaningful minutes for an extended period of time. The reason he's not playing is not because he's not proven, but because he isn't ready. Larry Hughes was not ready either, he was more prepared than Darko, but he was not ready himslef to log heavy minutes. I'm a big Hughes, but he seems to just be figuring it out.

Of course, there are certain problems with this line of reasoning.. First, Darko has more talent than Elden ever had, and far more talent than the old Elden we've got has.
I respectfully, but strongly disagree. Elden's best season he averaged 15.3 points, 9.5 rebounds, and 2 blocks his best season. What has Darko shown us to show that he can even approach those numbers this year or even next year? Nothing. It's ridiculous to think otherwise.

Five minutes a game is unlikely to affect the outcome much one way or the other.
The way Darko has played this year, those five minutes would be a big hinderance to what's best for the team. It's not Darko's team yet. Don't make it his team before it's time.


And this team, realistically, is not a strong title contender this year. We have no post presence offensively, so we live and die by the guards, and come playoffs, eventually you die (unless one of your guards is HOF level - Jordan, Thomas, etc.). Still, my hunch is that that is the way Brown is thinking.
Are you implying that Darko would be that post presence to put us over the top? I'd rather give it to Memo, Corliss, and Elden come crunch time than Darko (if going down low was the option).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,552 Posts
I honestly don't think there is any way Darko's presence on the floor could hurt the team more than Rebraca's.

I can understand Darko not playing most of the time. But last night in a situation where Rebraca was doing more harm than good on the floor Larry should not have put him back in in the second half.
 

·
Hokeamaniac
Joined
·
5,775 Posts
Once Darko looks good, not very bad, in his minimal playing time he should get more playing time. But even in his limited minutes, he looks lost on the court. He's not ready to get more minutes when the game is on the line.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
316 Posts
First, that was intended not as sarcasm but as a description of what I believe Brown's thought process to be. If that is what he is thinking, I disagree with him on the following grounds: First, this team is not a true contender for the NBA championship this season because we are completely reliant on perimeter scoring from our starting guards, both of whom run hot and cold. Over the course of 4 series, eventually one or both will turn cold and we will lose. We have no way, outside of the possibility of trading Darko, of gaining such an offensive presence by playoff time. Darko, and to a lesser extent Memo, represent our only solid hope for developing such a player in the future. If Darko's development is the key to our eventually winning a championship, then failure to optimally aid his progress hurts our chances of winning.

You state that Darko would be eaten alive if given extended minutes. Do you have any evidence to back that up? His limited playing time has given ammunition to both sides of the argument, but really isn't sufficient grounds for such a strong declaration. Brown has been somewhat critical, but everyone else in the organization, including Dumars and several of the players have praised his development. There are reliable reports that his stamina has improved and it's obvious he has increased his musculature. We do know that he was selected as the second pick in the draft, that he was a unanimous top 3 selection and that most experts agreed with taking him at 2. We know that he is 7'1, 265 and freakishly quick for his size. We know that he plays aggressively. How can you be so sure that if given consistent minutes, the opportunity to get into the flow of the NBA game, his superior physical abilities wouldn't sufficiently compensate for his inexperience?

As to the question of the talent differential between Campbell and Darko: Both are approximately the same size. Darko is far quicker and has superior leaping ability. He has shown a fairly developed array of offensive skills for his age and there is no reason to believe he won't continue to improve. Therefore, he has more talent. Can he play as well this season as Elden in his prime? No, of course not. At this point, his talent remains largely raw and unrefined. However, I feel that the simple difference in physical ability is vast enough that Darko would not be significantly less effective than Elden. Darko's athleticism and talent compensate for Elden's greater experience. Darko's performance over the last couple months has been at least equal to Zelly's and in no way inferior. He should at least get his time.

One last point: If we give the minutes to Elden and Zelly, they aren't going to get any better. They are already past their peaks and sliding down the other side. There is the possibility that, if given consistent though limited (5-10 minutes a game) time, Darko could rapidly develop. If he is anywhere close to as good as they are now, by playoff time he could be significantly better. A quick, strong and aggressive 7'1'' center with a variety of offensive skills would be a nice weapon to have coming off the bench this spring. Unless we give Darko a chance, it's a weapon we can be certain we will lack. If it costs us a game or two to find out what we've got, I feel it's well worth the investment. We're not going to win it all this season anyway.
 

·
Hokeamaniac
Joined
·
5,775 Posts
Originally posted by <b>JustinSane</b>!
First, that was intended not as sarcasm but as a description of what I believe Brown's thought process to be. If that is what he is thinking, I disagree with him on the following grounds: First, this team is not a true contender for the NBA championship this season because we are completely reliant on perimeter scoring from our starting guards, both of whom run hot and cold. Over the course of 4 series, eventually one or both will turn cold and we will lose. We have no way, outside of the possibility of trading Darko, of gaining such an offensive presence by playoff time. Darko, and to a lesser extent Memo, represent our only solid hope for developing such a player in the future. If Darko's development is the key to our eventually winning a championship, then failure to optimally aid his progress hurts our chances of winning.
To be honest I see no reason we can't atleast compete for a championship. Granted, it's only regular season play, but we've played very well against the Western Conference teams at home. On paper, yes we don't have the big boys to compete with the Western Conference big boys, but that doesn't change the fact that we have beaten the Lakers, Dallas, and San Antonio at home. We competed on the road against Sacramento (with a big home game coming up next week) and the game in Minnesota should have been a win. It's no fluke when you beat everybody. As of now, we'd have home court advantage over the Spurs, Mavs, and the Lakers. I agree that these teams would probably overcome the Pistons in a 7 game series, but there is no reason why the Pistons shouldn't be in contention.

You state that Darko would be eaten alive if given extended minutes. Do you have any evidence to back that up? His limited playing time has given ammunition to both sides of the argument, but really isn't sufficient grounds for such a strong declaration. Brown has been somewhat critical, but everyone else in the organization, including Dumars and several of the players have praised his development. There are reliable reports that his stamina has improved and it's obvious he has increased his musculature. We do know that he was selected as the second pick in the draft, that he was a unanimous top 3 selection and that most experts agreed with taking him at 2. We know that he is 7'1, 265 and freakishly quick for his size. We know that he plays aggressively. How can you be so sure that if given consistent minutes, the opportunity to get into the flow of the NBA game, his superior physical abilities wouldn't sufficiently compensate for his inexperience?
If he shows that he isn't completely lost on the court when he plays he will get time. When he is on the floor he constantly has mental lapses and is out of position on defense. He improves this and THEN he should get more time in game situations. Say what you will about Zelly and Elden, but right now, today, they know how to play the game. Zelly is somewhat of a mute point anyway, since he rarely gets any minutes anyway. But, Elden is big and physical and will not be overpowered by opposing big men. Darko is just not there yet. It's not that I don't like the guy. I want to see him succeed as much as anybody else. But, I also want to see us win games. That's what Larry Brown was brought in here for. To win.

As to the question of the talent differential between Campbell and Darko: Both are approximately the same size. Darko is far quicker and has superior leaping ability. He has shown a fairly developed array of offensive skills for his age and there is no reason to believe he won't continue to improve. Therefore, he has more talent. Can he play as well this season as Elden in his prime? No, of course not. At this point, his talent remains largely raw and unrefined. However, I feel that the simple difference in physical ability is vast enough that Darko would not be significantly less effective than Elden. Darko's athleticism and talent compensate for Elden's greater experience. Darko's performance over the last couple months has been at least equal to Zelly's and in no way inferior. He should at least get his time.
Not only can he not play as well this season as Elden in his prime, he can not play as well as Elden PAST his prime. I've seen it with my own two eyes. I disagree that Darko's performance has been equal to Zelly's unless you mean both have been sitting on the bench. If not, I think you need to pay closer attention to the defensive side of the game. Yes, Darko has had a couple nice blocked shots, but largely he has been out of position. There have been a couple of times I have wondered whether he thinks he is suppose to guard all 5 players on the court, because he just chases the ball around. These mental errors lead to the opponents getting easy buckets.

One last point: If we give the minutes to Elden and Zelly, they aren't going to get any better. They are already past their peaks and sliding down the other side. There is the possibility that, if given consistent though limited (5-10 minutes a game) time, Darko could rapidly develop. If he is anywhere close to as good as they are now, by playoff time he could be significantly better. A quick, strong and aggressive 7'1'' center with a variety of offensive skills would be a nice weapon to have coming off the bench this spring. Unless we give Darko a chance, it's a weapon we can be certain we will lack. If it costs us a game or two to find out what we've got, I feel it's well worth the investment. We're not going to win it all this season anyway.
The one or two games we chance could be the difference between having a home series in the Eastern Conference Finals and having an away series. Home court advantage against the Pacers would be big. I can't see the Pistons winning a game 7 in Conseco, but if they have to travel to the Palace I see a much better chance. I think you contradict yourself a little bit, as well. Throughout your argument you claim that Darko's talent is on par with Zelly and you seem to infer that he is on par with Elden. If that were the case and we played Darko instead of those two guys, why would we lose a game or two more during the course of the season? And, again, I atleast hold out the hope that we can give the Western Conference a run for their money IF (and it is a big if) we can gain homecourt advantage.

Great argument and great post, by the way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,552 Posts
Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!


If he shows that he isn't completely lost on the court when he plays he will get time. When he is on the floor he constantly has mental lapses and is out of position on defense.
The last several games he got in on I thought he looked a lot better in terms of knowing what to do and where to go. He switches too much on defense but that's not a huge deal.

You could hear Larry yelling at Zelly all night yesterday for not doing what he was supposed to, you could very clearly hear him yell "We just went over that play Zelly" at one point. Rebraca is completely invisible on the floor, he does absolutely nothing but rack up fouls. I don't think Darko should be getting minutes over Elden, but playing Rebraca over him baffles me.
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top