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Discussion Starter #1
For starters, I'm a Nets fan and a Kobe hater (just want to get that out of the way so you know where I'm coming from;)).

Last night I got to see parts of the Houston-Laker game (admittedly I was hanging at my friends house and we were roasting a fat one and drinking some beers (and then the ladies arrived and wanted to discuss dinner) so I was distracted somewhat) and the first three quarters of the Nets-Knicks game, and these three guys have all been 'the next Jordan,' at one time or another and they are the top three scoring wings in the NBA, IMO, so I thought I'd offer a comparison from last night's action.

TMac is a crazy talent. His touch is out of this world. Combine that w/ his athleticism and his length (body wise he's kind of the KG of perimeter players), and he can get his shot off in just about any situation. Kobe is Kobe, he can do it all, and he's got the 'will to power,' to boot. The criticism I have of the two of them, however, is that when they do look to get their shot, they don't involve their teammates, and they both look for their shot ALOT. This leads to alot of standing around for the other players on the court, and a ****-ton of horrible shots (some of which, do go in, but others of which miss so badly, if I was the coach, I'd immediately pull them from the game). Also, when their teammates are running plays that don't involve them, it sometimes seems as if they won't even look at Kobe and TMac (esp. Kobe), because they know if they give them the ball, they aren't getting it back. That's a very bad sign, IMO, when you can see that guys have contraposed agendas on the court. (I know Kobe had a triple double last night, but I don't think I've ever seen a less impressive one.)

Vince, who has historically had his issues (esp, in the 'will to power' area), is getting his shots in the flow of the offense. He took 27 shots last night, but he wasn't ball hogging. The ball was moving around nicely, and he was taking the open shots that presented themselves. Also, he was working like a mad man in the post, which I don't think either Kobe, or esp. TMac does enough. JKidd is just what Vince needed. Someone to handle the ball, run the O, and get him the ball where he can do damage (and someone to put a foot in his *** when he lets up off the accelerator). He'd do wonders for TMac and Kobe too, IMO, but those guys have got to learn how to integrate their offense within the team framework. Work off the ball and get it back where you can do soemthing w/ it. Don't always look to make it happen yourself.
 

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Well if T-Mac and Kobe had worked half-assedly for 2/3 of the season in Toronto they'd be working like mad men in the post too.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
sherwin said:
Well if T-Mac and Kobe had worked half-assedly for 2/3 of the season in Toronto they'd be working like mad men in the post too.
Closer to 1/3 of the season, maybe 1/2. :biggrin:
 

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I'm sure Kobe wouldn't look to make everything happen by himself, if he actually had a quality PG like Kidd who can get him the shots when he gets into ideal scoring positions. The same would be true with T-Mac. That way, they can concentrate on what they do best- which is scoring- and not have to worry about getting teammates involved as well.
 

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I think both McGrady and Bryant are unfairly knocked for "not getting teammates involved." McGrady has passed a lot to his teammates, in fact, that's been a major criticism of him...that when he drives, he always kicks to a teammate for a shot. It supposedly makes him too "passive."

But yes, if "getting shots within the flow," or "letting the game come to you" is what you value, I'd say that's a lot easier when you have a great, or even competent, point guard. Bryant and McGrady are both primary scorers and the primary ball-handler / play-makers. Neither the Rockets nor Lakers have very good play-making point guards...Sura, James, Atkins are all in the mold of scoring point guards.
 

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BBB said:
I'm sure Kobe wouldn't look to make everything happen by himself, if he actually had a quality PG like Kidd who can get him the shots when he gets into ideal scoring positions. The same would be true with T-Mac. That way, they can concentrate on what they do best- which is scoring- and not have to worry about getting teammates involved as well.
Kobe had a great passer in Shaq, and look what happened there. A quality PG that handled the ball more than Kobe would just drive him insane.

TMac...I'd have to agree, given a great PG he'd be even greater than he is.

But, when it comes down to it, Vince has been down right phenominal with Kidd in the backcourt. We can all say "well if this guy had this player with him blah blah blah..." but Vince in reality is the only "MJ-type" player with a great PG and he's getting it done.
 

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IV said:
This is the work of the devil. :devil:
Haha, what a nick name for SeaNet.

-Petey
 

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kobe, t-mac and Vince need to ball handle to score... especially kobe and Mac.... They usually dont get points off other teamates assists..... t-mac is the best out of the three at catching a shooting, and kobe is best out of the three at catching the ball in the middle and continuing to the basket for a dunk. But they SELDOM do that. The lack of a true pg for both their teams is a reason... but even if they hada "true" pg on their team.... they still somehow would demand to control the ball. They are two of the great offensive talents ever... and you cant blame them for demanding to control the ball so much. I mean if your THAT good...
kobe and t-mac are also two of the best at scoring on a broken play... which happens alot on the Lakers and the Rockets. Thats one reason why their fg% is so low. When the shotclock is going down... all four of the other teamates on the court have a automatic message that signals them to pass it to kobe or t-mac, and thus they are forced to take a horrible shot. With a true pg, these broken plays would not be so regular, because a true pg is smart enough not o dribble the ball around for 20 seconds and charge into 4 defenders(BOB SURA).
 
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TMac creates almost al l his shots off the dribble. He doesnt have a real PG to play with, but thats fine, he still produces and he gets 6+ assists too.
 

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I've said it before..Tmac and Vince's games are so simular its scary...I do see that Vince posts up more than McGrady..but as far Kobe since the season has gone to hell..they've basically stop running the Triangle all together...before Bryant was on the block quite often...

...Tmac and Bryant are better off the dribble..but T-mac's nowhere near as good as Kobe.....the only guys who can compete with him are A.I. and Wade(they're so damn agressive off the dribble)...while McGrady has gotten into a bad habit of sizeing up the defense of the dribble..instead of attacking the defense off the dribble (I blame the pistons for this...he hasn't been the same since that series 2 years ago)...Vince's handle isn't up to par...

..The three are basically equal shooters..very, very streaky

Kobe and Vince are better finishers than McGrady (Kobe being the best)..I believe that Kobe's the best "in-game" dunker in the league(his body control is amazing)...the reason McGrady isn't as good the others is because of his lack of body control..he's still a very good finisher..it's really because he's so long
 

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Discussion Starter #13
farhan007 said:
kobe, t-mac and Vince need to ball handle to score... especially kobe and Mac.... They usually dont get points off other teamates assists..... t-mac is the best out of the three at catching a shooting, and kobe is best out of the three at catching the ball in the middle and continuing to the basket for a dunk. But they SELDOM do that. The lack of a true pg for both their teams is a reason... but even if they hada "true" pg on their team.... they still somehow would demand to control the ball. They are two of the great offensive talents ever... and you cant blame them for demanding to control the ball so much. I mean if your THAT good...
kobe and t-mac are also two of the best at scoring on a broken play... which happens alot on the Lakers and the Rockets. Thats one reason why their fg% is so low. When the shotclock is going down... all four of the other teamates on the court have a automatic message that signals them to pass it to kobe or t-mac, and thus they are forced to take a horrible shot. With a true pg, these broken plays would not be so regular, because a true pg is smart enough not o dribble the ball around for 20 seconds and charge into 4 defenders(BOB SURA).
Regarding the bolded portion of your post, I would say to you that I agree, that they are otherworldly talented and on any one possession they are always the best option to look to score for their team, however, I think that in the bigger picture, it detracts from the team's potential success. Not even MJ could go deep in the playoffs when he was taking all the shots, and always looking to make things happen. Everyone needs to be involved for the team as a whole to flourish. And they don't involved their teammates enough.

And as for the taking the bad shots, thing. I think that the reason there are so many bad shots that need to be taken, is because TMac and Kobe dominate the ball so much that it breaks down the flow of the offense.
 

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tone wone said:
I've said it before..Tmac and Vince's games are so simular its scary...I do see that Vince posts up more than McGrady..but as far Kobe since the season has gone to hell..they've basically stop running the Triangle all together...before Bryant was on the block quite often...

...Tmac and Bryant are better off the dribble..but T-mac's nowhere near as good as Kobe.....the only guys who can compete with him are A.I. and Wade(they're so damn agressive off the dribble)...while McGrady has gotten into a bad habit of sizeing up the defense of the dribble..instead of attacking the defense off the dribble (I blame the pistons for this...he hasn't been the same since that series 2 years ago)...Vince's handle isn't up to par...

..The three are basically equal shooters..very, very streaky

Kobe and Vince are better finishers than McGrady (Kobe being the best)..I believe that Kobe's the best "in-game" dunker in the league(his body control is amazing)...the reason McGrady isn't as good the others is because of his lack of body control..he's still a very good finisher..it's really because he's so long
Vince and McGrady are numbers wise better shooters than Kobe and something that's always been hella overlooked is that pure numbers wise, is that Vince is easilly the best three point shooter of them all.
Also, there hasn't been a ball player born who is a better in-game, half-court, in your face dunker that is anywhere near Vince Carter. He is the best and as great as Kobe and McGrady are at the dunks, this is Vincent Lamar Carter we're talking about, the man whose highlight reels will be played till the end of time. He jumped not just over that French dude, but OVER TIM DUNCAN last season ( somebody please upload that dunk so that people can see what I'm talking about). I mean hello. TIM DUNCAN. Timmy just stood there and took it. Couldn't even get his hands up in time, that's the kind of explosiveness that Carter has.
Otherwise that was an excellent analysis. I just thought I'd drop in my 2 cents. Keep it up bro.
 

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Max Payne said:
Vince and McGrady are numbers wise better shooters than Kobe and something that's always been hella overlooked is that pure numbers wise, is that Vince is easilly the best three point shooter of them all.
Also, there hasn't been a ball player born who is a better in-game, half-court, in your face dunker that is anywhere near Vince Carter. He is the best and as great as Kobe and McGrady are at the dunks, this is Vincent Lamar Carter we're talking about, the man whose highlight reels will be played till the end of time. He jumped not just over that French dude, but OVER TIM DUNCAN last season ( somebody please upload that dunk so that people can see what I'm talking about). I mean hello. TIM DUNCAN. Timmy just stood there and took it. Couldn't even get his hands up in time, that's the kind of explosiveness that Carter has.
Otherwise that was an excellent analysis. I just thought I'd drop in my 2 cents. Keep it up bro.
I had a feeling someone was going to disagree about Kobe being a better dunker than Vince :biggrin: ..that may not be true..

...But I do think he is a better finisher (there is a differnce)...nobody in the league can match his body control..he finds ways to finish around the basket that no one else can
 

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I don't think anyone can match Carter for aerial body control and crazy baskets.
 

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tone wone said:
I had a feeling someone was going to disagree about Kobe being a better dunker than Vince :biggrin: ..that may not be true..

...But I do think he is a better finisher (there is a differnce)...nobody in the league can match his body control..he finds ways to finish around the basket that no one else can
True.Finishing off contact I have to say Kobe and AI are the absolute best and Kobe probably edges AI slightly because he's bigger and so can finish off greater contact than Iverson can.
 

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Max Payne said:
Vince and McGrady are numbers wise better shooters than Kobe and something that's always been hella overlooked is that pure numbers wise, is that Vince is easilly the best three point shooter of them all.
Also, there hasn't been a ball player born who is a better in-game, half-court, in your face dunker that is anywhere near Vince Carter. He is the best and as great as Kobe and McGrady are at the dunks, this is Vincent Lamar Carter we're talking about, the man whose highlight reels will be played till the end of time. He jumped not just over that French dude, but OVER TIM DUNCAN last season ( somebody please upload that dunk so that people can see what I'm talking about). I mean hello. TIM DUNCAN. Timmy just stood there and took it. Couldn't even get his hands up in time, that's the kind of explosiveness that Carter has.
Otherwise that was an excellent analysis. I just thought I'd drop in my 2 cents. Keep it up bro.
Come on, Max, what relevance does this have?

Vincent Carter is a great dunker. So what?
Being a great dunker only counts in highlight reels. Kid's stuff. No big deal, unless your name is Julius.

I feel kind of betrayed when i see Max Payne wasting 90% of a post talking about dunking habilities... :cry:
 

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Wow, I would love to destroy people left and right.

1) T-Mac has failed time and time to produce to the all-star numbers if he doesnt have the ball in his hands, if he doesnt have the greenlight to attack in early offense, and if he doesnt run picks for him.

T-Mac can get his points because he uses the flow of the game to his advantage. Of course he got to have good athleticism to get his points but let me break it down on what's the negative affect and why T-mac wont win a championship ever as a first scoring option.

A) Make his move in early offense, when defense are still on their heels get back. Props to him having the IQ and ball handling ability. But Not those stop and pop 3s, sudden turnaround in the post like your even faking your own teammates and etc. You guys think he is a great scoring machine? I say he is a loser in this regard? It affect your teammates effectiveness interms of the positioning in for offensive rebounds, team defense and etc. It just open up all kind of troubles when he misses a shot.

B) Pick and Roll play, LMAO, you can use it during the couse of the game or here and there. But down the stretch? Another thing to be classified as a loser to me. It's common sense, no teams would allow you to get the free path to the basket, the picker's defensive man will double him you and you are forcing your teammates to make the shot for you. So, John, this is a wide open shot, Man, STFU! Hey, NBA teams would not allow you to use the same play to beat them 4 times in a 7 game series.

C) T-mac was having all kind of problems getting a shot off in broken play. Butch Carter didnt say it, Raps players didnt say it but that was why the Raps managment made it clear that T-mac is the 2nd option to Vince Carter when T-Mac eventually went to the Orlando Magic.
 
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