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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If (and When) we win a ring with the toddlers and jay, the skeptical media is going to say "anyone could have done it that way---lose and get a lot of top picks to draft and trade".

Big deal---point to the Clippers who were there repeatedly and are just now fielding a playoff team...

BUT---didn't Krause violate the tenets of sportsmanship by INTENTIONALLY putting a bad product on the floor for several seasons without any inkling of trying win?

The whole purpose of sports is to win games. We dissed the games at that time to get picks so we could win games later.

Isn't that wrong? I KNOW Krause could have put a better product on the floor each of the last several seasons---and there were probably obvious trades he could have made to better the team.

We're all happy now...but...
 

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Thats a tough call....

....to say for sure that the Bulls threw games to get a better draft pick. I think, with the talent, and the coaching situation being what it was, we were fortunate to win some of the games we did. Beat the Fakers twice, Boston,.......spurs once, didn't we?.....and there were a few others....no, I think the reason we won and lost the number of games we did, is because our team and coaching staff was RAW and crappy and injured a LOT! LOL Us having the record we did in the league did not guarantee, nor give us the first pick. Luck, whether it be bad or good, and the dealings so far of JK, were major factors as to where this team is right now. Look for it to get better for the same reasons this year.:grinning:
 

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Why do you assume that the teams were intentionally bad?

I saw some bad draft picks and failed free agent bids...

These are hardly the actions of a GM who is trying to lose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Re: Thats a tough call....

Originally posted by <b>BamaBull</b>!
....to say for sure that the Bulls threw games to get a better draft pick.
I don't think any of the teams threw games.

I'm wondering if the GM threw a season.
 

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I agree with Bama... that's a tough call.

I don't think Krause intentionally tanked seasons simply to get higher draft picks. Yes, he gutted the championship team once Jordan retired. That put him at absolute square one. So from that standpoint, yes-- I supposed one could argue he did not try to win that first year. But every year after that I don't see any lack of effort in trying to put a winner on the court. He made the decision to build through the draft, and that takes time. He can only draft so many new players each year.
 

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There is no question that a bad team was intentionally put on the court the first year of rebuilding, and Kraquse did make an effort after that to get top free agents such as McGrady and Jones which did not work.
I think the real key is that the players on the court busted their butts to win. The first 3 years of Floyd's coaching run, the Bulls players gave maximum effort to win, but lacked the talent to win very many.
Krause was willing to acquire players who were of the caliber to be on a championship team after the first free agent run, but not players who put us in perpetual mediocrity. We might have won a few more games in the short term that way, but it wouldn't have gotten us anywhere significant.
As long as the players on the court tried to win, I don't have a problem.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Songcycle</b>!
There is no question that a bad team was intentionally put on the court the first year of rebuilding.....
I agree with the remainder of your post, however, I find it VERY hard to agree that he tanked the first season, or any season for that matter. lets face it, jerry west or anyone else could not have done much for this Bulls team the first year. Floyd was krauses' scapegoat, plain and simple. This team was gonna lose in bunches because there just was not seasoned talent or any leaders on this team. Floyd had some "learning" of his own to do coaching "paid" athletes. Paid athletes with attitudes. No way he tanked the first season; he could not prevent it, period. I see krause as the little boy with his finger in the dam.....just my take.:grinning:
 

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You could be right BamaBull. He didn't have to trade Steve Kerr and Will Perdue, but we did get first round picks that turned into Artest and Bagaric and we did sign Brent Barry who did turn out well later. There was talk of signing players like McDyess, Walker and Garnett who reupped or signed early elsewhere, but I do not know the exact time frame.
 

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I don't think any of the losing was intentional. If Krause was able to sign McGrady, the player he wanted the most, the Bulls would have been in the play-offs the last three years.

The only way I think one could say he tanked the strike shortened season would be if he held Kukoc out with "back problems." I remember that the team did decent when he played but he missed most of the season. I might be remembering wrong. Not sure.

However, I think Krause has done nothing to indicate losing on purpose for better draft picks.

*eta - I also think he waited until Miller and Artest had higher trade value. No way he would have gotten Jalen Rose, or someone at his level, for them prior to last season.
 

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This is a very interesting thread.

Whether Jerry K intentionally 'threw' seasons or not, the result was still the same. The Bulls have finished at or near the bottom of the NBA for 4 seasons. So the discussion is valid, but the end result is the same.

My two cents is that Jerry K did build a shoddy team the first two seasons (on purpose) to clear cap and sign two bigname FAs. Jerry K did unload Kerr, Longley, and later Kukoc to get DBags, Artest, and Crawford. Not bad. But JK also did sign the likes of Brent Barry, Mark Bryant, BJ Armstrong (for one season), Will Perdue, Hersey Hawkins, etc. Ouch. Those were all veteran stop-gaps, cap fodder, and little more.

Having stuck out w/ the big FA offseason of '00, Jerry K had sign someone to save face and Miller and Mercer got some jack. The next season it was Eddie Rob who got some love. None of these were of note, but Miller did show some toughness and was a nice cog to be packaged (with Artest) for Jalen Rose. Mercer and Eddie had/have been disappointments.

Tanked seasons or not, this much is clear looking back at the past 4 seasons: 1) Jerry K struck out with FA signings and 2) JK's success will rest mostly on the past 4 drafts and 3) at least the Bulls are in a good cap situation =) Just trying to look at the bright side I guess.

VD
 

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Gotta agree with Vin....

Additionally, I think Jerry K was unprepared for the new CBA and not getting any of the FA he wanted. He then went into a back-up plan that was a "worst-case" scenario.

It's hard to blame anyone for trying and failing. If you never fail, you probably don't ever succeed either.

That being said, he did not shine with his FA signings. Again, was that his fault? The players he signed did not make the impact he hoped for and believed in.

The drafting has been so recent that it is hard to accurately judge it. Especially when you look at the ages of the players he drafted. Half of his draft picks would still be in college. That makes it even tougher to judge him.

Living in Laker/Clipper land I am constantly harrassed and my response is always the same:

"If I was offered the chance to have my team win 6 championships over an 8 year period, then have the team struggle for 8 years would I do it. Heck ya. In a heartbeat."

So, while it has been very brutal, Jerry isn't the only to blame. The league changed, literally and figuratively on him. We all know he has no quicks.

:rolleyes:



The future is looking bright!


Go Bulls
 

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lotta different takes on this idea...

I have to agree that the first year of rebuilding was a year in which Krause put together a team of mediocre veterans, with no expectation of winning more than a handful of games

I mean, c'mon --

Andrew Lang
Mark Bryant
Toni Kukoc
Ron Harper
Randy Brown

all of them useful role players, but of that group, Kukoc was the only real starting quality player there.

after that season however, I think Krause had a slightly different goal with each following season: get experience for his young studs - so that they can become champions a couple of seasons down the road.

i don't see that as the same as tanking a season -- Krause didn't want to lose to get a high draft pick, he wanted to the players he had to learn how to win (and usually that requires losing some at first)
 

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The one thing I see a little skewed here is this:

GM's are not asked to be good sports. They are not the main objects in the sport of basketball. The main competitors are the teams themselves, not those who compose them.

So, it MAY BE bad sportsmanship for a GM to try and tank a season, and thus, he's a bad sport among other GM's. but if the team goes out and plays hard every night, and honestly tries to win, then that's not bad sportsmanship.

The Bulls always played hard, I think. There were some players that spent a little too much time on the IR or whatnot, but in general, the team played tough and tried to adjust to the millions of changes that have plagued the team for the past four years. The Bulls are not worse sports just because of JK.
 

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Krause could have had a better team that first year. He could have tried to keep the dynasty team together...minus MJ. Not sure he could have re-signed Pippen. Rodman?

At best, they would probably have been a marginal playoff team with an aging/old roster and big contracts.

Instead, Krause dumped salary with a passion, not in an intentional effort to field a bad team, but to create an opportunity to be a championship contender more quickly.

Well, he hasn't been able to quickly rebuild this team. It hasn't been as easy as Krause thought it would be.

Miscalculation, yes. Poor sportsmanship, no.
 

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I've been a JK basher from time to time, but I can't say that what he did in 1999 was an intentional tank, a mistake or a miscalculation.

He did to the Bulls roster what Jerry Angelo did for the Bears. He evaluated what we had and began planning immediately for the long term success of the team. As upset as I was at the time of the dynasty break-up, history has shown that he made good evaluations of the players he let go (once it was clear that Phil wanted out and MJ wasn't coming back without Phil). Scottie had one more good year or so left in him. Nobody else really went on to shine.

In terms of rebuilding, we didn't catch very many breaks, so it has arguably taken longer than it could have. It is probable that if we had kept our veterans longer and focused on filling holes with short term solutions, we would have competed at a higher level in say 1999, maybe 2000. But by now, that plan would have run out of gas and we'd be in the same place, but with no core for the future.

I don't think there is any basis for such a serious accusation, that JK intentionally fielded bad teams to gain high draft picks. If you need to rebuild, I don't see anything wrong with signing young players and only giong after veterans who will be long term assets or veterans who do not fit long term plans, but will sign short term contracts. We have plenty of youth, and it is not JK's fault that the Bulls failed in their efforts to attract vets with long term potential. Unfortunately, that last catagory consists of players who are over the hill or have marginal talent. The good news is our days of needing those marginal vets is growing shorter.
 

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As hard as it may be to phathom, Krause definitely and intentionally put an inferior product on the court to secure lottery picks over the past four years. Krause realized early on, that it was senseless to pay dollar contract for great players if there was no reasonable chance to win a championship. He saw that barely making the playoffs was not a suitable option. He knew this when he decided not to re-sign Pippen, Rodman, or Kukoc once Michael decided to retire.

Once Krause had gutted the team, he tried to go after a few marque free agents with the intention of building around them. After realizing that it would next to impossible to attract players like McGrady, Hill, Duncan, and Eddie Jones to a team in the midst of rebuilding, he decided to build through the draft and by accumulating middle-of-the-road free agents for the intentions of trading them for a single star-caliber player (ala Jalen Rose). He also realized that the quickest way to rebuild was to secure the top pick of the draft. So, he hired a patzy to coach his assembly of miscrediants. A friend who could earn a good chunk of change and would still coach as Krause directed. A coach who had no NBA coaching experience and who would likely fail on his own. With Krause in the background encouraging Floyd not to play guys like JC his rookie season and to allow losey players like Ruffin and El-Amin to get substantial playing time, all anyone would have to understand was the concept of gravity to explain why the Bulls would fall to the bottom so quickly.

Anyone who thinks that Krause didn't purposefully tank each of the last four seasons is downright crazy. Come on ... the guy built a NBA dynasty, a team that one 6 championships in 8 years. A guy with "cap space" to burn and yet, they continuously posted the league's worst record. Let's not forget that for a couple of a seasons (during the rebuilding process), the UC was sold out due to the backlog of season ticketholders who never anticipated Michael's retirement. That game him the financial cushion to lose and still make a profit.

To me there is no doubt that Krause lost on purpose. And you know what? I am so glad he did.
 

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Like Brent Barry said.....

Originally posted by <b>MichaelOFAZ</b>!
As hard as it may be to phathom, Krause definitely and intentionally put an inferior product on the court to secure lottery picks over the past four years. Krause realized early on, that it was senseless to pay dollar contract for great players if there was no reasonable chance to win a championship. He saw that barely making the playoffs was not a suitable option. He knew this when he decided not to re-sign Pippen, Rodman, or Kukoc once Michael decided to retire.

Once Krause had gutted the team, he tried to go after a few marque free agents with the intention of building around them. After realizing that it would next to impossible to attract players like McGrady, Hill, Duncan, and Eddie Jones to a team in the midst of rebuilding, he decided to build through the draft and by accumulating middle-of-the-road free agents for the intentions of trading them for a single star-caliber player (ala Jalen Rose). He also realized that the quickest way to rebuild was to secure the top pick of the draft. So, he hired a patzy to coach his assembly of miscrediants. A friend who could earn a good chunk of change and would still coach as Krause directed. A coach who had no NBA coaching experience and who would likely fail on his own. With Krause in the background encouraging Floyd not to play guys like JC his rookie season and to allow losey players like Ruffin and El-Amin to get substantial playing time, all anyone would have to understand was the concept of gravity to explain why the Bulls would fall to the bottom so quickly.

Anyone who thinks that Krause didn't purposefully tank each of the last four seasons is downright crazy. Come on ... the guy built a NBA dynasty, a team that one 6 championships in 8 years. A guy with "cap space" to burn and yet, they continuously posted the league's worst record. Let's not forget that for a couple of a seasons (during the rebuilding process), the UC was sold out due to the backlog of season ticketholders who never anticipated Michael's retirement. That game him the financial cushion to lose and still make a profit.

To me there is no doubt that Krause lost on purpose. And you know what? I am so glad he did.
.....the only thing the Bulls organization could attrack was flies...how many free agents did krause attempt to sign thru these last four years? I used to bash krause also, but believe he did the best for the Bulls with each passing year. This year will be no exception...we will improve. I do think krause and everyone else knew the Bulls COULD not win very many games with the lineup they put on the floor every game...but that does not mean he put an inferior product out there; that was ALL he could muster!!! LOL true story.:laugh:
 

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BamaBull, I agree. If we could have gotten a significant free agent at any time, we would have. The losing was a byproduct that worked out well.
 

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Krause used to talk about the Celtics' fall from an elite team to doormat; this was some sort of excuse to break up a championship winning team to rebuild.

I would note that the Celtics were able to draft Len Bias, and his untimely death along with that of Reggie Lewis had as much to do with the Celtics' decline as the aging of the veterans.

Last season, Pippen, Jordan, and Kukoc were still playing, as were several of the other championship players. Seems to me Krause gave up 4 years too early.

And of course, Krause built a crappy team to get draft picks. You don't trade away Kukoc and Pippen for basically nothing if you're not tanking.
 

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Yes Krause talked about the Celts and how to avoid the total downfall and before the year of ring six, could have and wanted to trade Scottie Pippen for 3 first rounders to the Celts including the #3 and #6 that most likely would have been Ron Mercer and Tracy McGrady but Reinsdorf made him turn it down due to overwhelmibg fan opinion. The key being to trade key parts while they still had major value. That would have made for an earlier transistion to respectability.
 
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