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Discussion Starter #1
not to sound like we're jumping off the "bandwagon" so to speak, but should the lineup be changed?

What about:

Telfair
Dixon
Monia
Darius
Joel?

or

Telfair
Jack
Monia
Darius
Joel?

or
Telfair
Monia
Darius
Theo
Joel?

I think Zach is the "weakest" link, per-say, in the lineup. They all need work (some more than others) but I think Zach's lack-luster play lately (2 rebounds in 2 seperate games is pathetic) is the biggest red-flag. Telfairs suspect D isn't exactly kosher either, but that seems to appear in games that coincide with him having to take a much bigger offensive role because of the games where Zach's O is as good as 3 month old Milk.

regardless, they need to get it into Zach's head that he has to play regardless of how he's doing offensively.
 

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Zach will get his numbers...the fact he got into it witha teammate about touches is evidence of that. I don't think you pull Zach unless you have a trade lined up that willl absorb the BYC, otherwise you have just pushed the "self destruct" button. Basically due to the Cancer I think Zach would become if pulled.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Schilly said:
Zach will get his numbers...the fact he got into it witha teammate about touches is evidence of that. I don't think you pull Zach unless you have a trade lined up that willl absorb the BYC, otherwise you have just pushed the "self destruct" button. Basically due to the Cancer I think Zach would become if pulled.
I think in a way thats why you do it. Because it might break him of that. Before, he could whine and the coach would wilt. Now the coach will say "look, it's my way, or the express freeway to my boot stuck straight up your candy ***, you jabroni".

It's not like this is going to make us a non playoff team..we're gonna be bad. But like in the military, they have to break down players before you can build them up. And the Old Zach is still showing up far too often.
 

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Id much rather have a Dixon,Jack/Webster,Monia/Outlaw,Miles/Kryapha,Joel/Ha i don't really like some of Bassy's late game decisions like the one in the 3rd where he went for a layup and missed and instead of hurrying up court argued with the ref and his man ran up court and scored 2.
 

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Zach is our best player, and we should be getting him more shots within the flow of the offense. We have guards in Telfair and Dixon who seem to be more concerned with getting their OWN shots than putting Zach in a good position to score.

There's little excuse for Zach not to rebound the ball irrespective of whether he's getting his touches, but right now the offense is being run outside-in, rather than inside-out, and that's not Zach's fault.

Ed O.
 

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I missed tonights game, are those box score numbers correct? Did Howard domonate Randolph that bad tonight? Maybe Zach had to much at the Blazers Thanksgiving feast, but damn he has to be in the paint getting rebounds at the very least. I am sure that he'll get his numbers, but games like this make ya wonder sometimes.

Sounds like it was an ugly game for Randolph.
 

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I was always criticizing Mo Cheeks for his inability to adjust. However, I really think Nate is starting our best players, and the guys who fit best together. Our guys just aren't as good as the other teams' guys on many nights. :(

You can't really seriously expect our coach to bench a 19 point, 10 rebound guy, can you? Especially when we don't even have another legit PF on the team.
 

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Hap said:
not to sound like we're jumping off the "bandwagon" so to speak, but should the lineup be changed?

What about:

Telfair
Dixon
Monia
Darius
Joel?

or

Telfair
Jack
Monia
Darius
Joel?

or
Telfair
Monia
Darius
Theo
Joel?

I think Zach is the "weakest" link, per-say, in the lineup. They all need work (some more than others) but I think Zach's lack-luster play lately (2 rebounds in 2 seperate games is pathetic) is the biggest red-flag. Telfairs suspect D isn't exactly kosher either, but that seems to appear in games that coincide with him having to take a much bigger offensive role because of the games where Zach's O is as good as 3 month old Milk.

regardless, they need to get it into Zach's head that he has to play regardless of how he's doing offensively.
I think a small lineup of

Telfair
Webster
Monia
Miles
Zach

would be fun, with Joel for Zach when we want more defense. It would be fun to at least try it against the right team, like the Hawks for example.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Ed O said:
Zach is our best player, and we should be getting him more shots within the flow of the offense. We have guards in Telfair and Dixon who seem to be more concerned with getting their OWN shots than putting Zach in a good position to score.
I don't disagree that telfair and dixon are sometimes more concernted with getting their own shots, but so is Zach. Zach is so concerned with getting his own shots he fails to see that him passing out of a double team to a player and not getting the ball back right away, will make the offense flow better.

Why? Because teams will know it'll go right back to Zach.

I think the games where Telfair has been "more concerned" about getting his own shots have been more out of neccesity than want. It's been mostly 2 games, (NY and tonite) and just coincidentially happen to be in games where Zach phones it in.
 

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Who the best player is on the Blazers I think at this point is debatable...Zachs our best scorer, and his rebound numbers are good, but does that make him the best player? As of right now though he is not only our best PF but out only PF.

BTW with Zach as our starting PF we have yet to make the playoffs and have gotten progressively worse.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
theWanker said:
I was always criticizing Mo Cheeks for his inability to adjust. However, I really think Nate is starting our best players, and the guys who fit best together. Our guys just aren't as good as the other teams' guys on many nights. :(

You can't really seriously expect our coach to bench a 19 point, 10 rebound guy, can you? Especially when we don't even have another legit PF on the team.
if he phones it in like he's done 2 out of the last 4 games, yes I can. It's not like he's passing more, or playing defense more, or understanding that it's not about him shooting shots and therefore him getting rebounds.

If he doesn't want to play the system (or understand that playing the system actually makes it easier for him) than he's not worth keeping around, because it's not like he's making it easier on the guys. If he can accept that he doesn't need to have the ball all the time, and that passing out of a double team to a wide open guy is good (or that moving without the ball is good) and is willing to show that, even in games where his shot isn't falling..than yah..he can play minutes. But he only shows that (and doesn't even show that much of it) when he's playing good (in his mind).

If him getting it through his head takes 3-5 games of him not starting, that's good.
 

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Hap said:
I think the games where Telfair has been "more concerned" about getting his own shots have been more out of neccesity than want. It's been mostly 2 games, (NY and tonite) and just coincidentially happen to be in games where Zach phones it in.
I don't think there was a "necessity" of Sebastian getting shots tonight. The Orlando announcers correctly pointed out that Zach barely touched the ball at the beginning of the game. Joel was scoring effectively, but it was weird that Zach was frozen out like he was.

Sebastian was aggressive offensively to the detriment of Zach and some of the other Blazers. Telfair was relatively effective, particularly in the first three quarters or so, but Zach needs good offensive looks to be active in other portions of the game, and I think that the Blazers (including Telfair and Juan) need to recognize that.

Ed O.
 

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Ed O said:
I don't think there was a "necessity" of Sebastian getting shots tonight. The Orlando announcers correctly pointed out that Zach barely touched the ball at the beginning of the game. Joel was scoring effectively, but it was weird that Zach was frozen out like he was.

Ed O.
I didn't get to watch or listen to the game until late in the 4th, but from what I read we had a great 1st quarter.

It was, Nate McMillan said, the perfect quarter.

No Trail Blazers turnovers. Fifty-eight percent shooting. Six assists on 14 baskets. And a season-high 35 points.

But after all of that led to a 35-27 first-quarter lead for the Blazers against Orlando, everything went south. In a hurry.
If Zach was frozen out maybe it was for the best? Did we use him as bait? Like I said I missed it and of course we need to get Zach the ball, he is our best scorer, but it's odd if as you said we didn't get him the ball early and we did so well.
 

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Ed O said:
Zach is our best player, and we should be getting him more shots within the flow of the offense. We have guards in Telfair and Dixon who seem to be more concerned with getting their OWN shots than putting Zach in a good position to score.

There's little excuse for Zach not to rebound the ball irrespective of whether he's getting his touches, but right now the offense is being run outside-in, rather than inside-out, and that's not Zach's fault.

Ed O.
I agree with that 100%. Is there any coincidence that on both of Telfair's "breakout" games Zach put up abysmal numbers - and they were both ugly losses?

It seems to me that if Zach is kept happy on the offensive end, he's going to give a better effort on defense, rebounding, his overall game. Not to mention the team is more successful.
 

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Schilly said:
BTW with Zach as our starting PF we have yet to make the playoffs and have gotten progressively worse.
Pinning that on Zach is horse****. Last year he missed half of the season, and when Reef took over in the second half we played some of the worst ball in Blazer history. The year before the Blazers were on pace to make the playoffs until the team was blown up by the all-star break. That's Zach's two season's as our starting PF (or more accurately, season and a half).

Zbo takes a lot of unecessary heat around here. If we didn't have Zach we wouldn't have won a game this year.
 

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Hap said:
I don't disagree that telfair and dixon are sometimes more concernted with getting their own shots, but so is Zach. Zach is so concerned with getting his own shots he fails to see that him passing out of a double team to a player and not getting the ball back right away, will make the offense flow better.
Zach has improved this year in recognizing double teams and passing it out, as well as passing out and resetting. Sometimes he gets the ball right back, as he should, and sometimes the ball will swing to the other side. Either way, the Blazers have had some of their best offensive flow when the ball is going through Zach.

Zach may be selfish, he may be too concerned with getting his, but the fact of the matter is that big men win games in the NBA. Unless you have exceptional guards (which the Blazers don't) the team needs to run their offense primarily through Zbo. If Zach is "mailing it in" it is Telfair's job as the point guard to be a leader on the court (vocally if necessary) and do what he can to get Zach going.

Magic Johnson was on TV the other day talking about Kobe and Shaq and said that Kobe should have defered to Shaq the way Magic defered to Kareem. Magic said that he just wanted to keep Kareem happy, and if Kareem wanted the Lakers to be "his" team then Magic would say it's all yours, because the big man wins games.
 

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mgb said:
If Zach was frozen out maybe it was for the best? Did we use him as bait? Like I said I missed it and of course we need to get Zach the ball, he is our best scorer, but it's odd if as you said we didn't get him the ball early and we did so well.
I see what you're saying, and it's possible that the Magic were so focused on stopping Zach that the rest of the players did well... I don't claim to be able to be able to pick up nuances of defensive sets that much. But as I've articulated in the game thread, I believe that the first quarter was a super-fluke. Joel had 11 points and Jack and Monya each had 5... the Blazers were hitting perimeter shots and not working it inside, which is the only way (IMO) we're going to compete with other teams.

I wish that Zach could just put his head down and do the little things even when he's not getting good looks... but it seems that he cannot at this point, and I don't think that putting him on the bench will change that.

Ed O.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Goldmember said:
Zach has improved this year in recognizing double teams and passing it out, as well as passing out and resetting. Sometimes he gets the ball right back, as he should, and sometimes the ball will swing to the other side. Either way, the Blazers have had some of their best offensive flow when the ball is going through Zach.
I say that the team has some of their best offensive flow not through Zach. He is getting better, but it's not really consistent. He'll get better one game and then revert back to his tunnel vision play. Kind of like someone who knows that all they have to do is placate people for a while, and go back to their old habits.

If he didn't demand the ball near as much as he does, it wouldn't be so bad. Does Zach ever set screens for other players so they can have plays run for them?

Is Zach ever used as a decoy for the offense? Since teams know he's not the best at passing, and all they have to do is double him and they know he's going to force a shot up. It makes it so they don't have to worry about doubling the passer much (the spacing also plays a part in that. They pass the ball too close to Zach).

I get in and out games. But in and out game plans are contingent on there being out, and a guy who's willing to pass out and not complain about "getting his".

Zach may be selfish, he may be too concerned with getting his, but the fact of the matter is that big men win games in the NBA. Unless you have exceptional guards (which the Blazers don't) the team needs to run their offense primarily through Zbo. If Zach is "mailing it in" it is Telfair's job as the point guard to be a leader on the court (vocally if necessary) and do what he can to get Zach going.
I think it's not only Telfairs job (and who knws how thick headed zach is) but the coaches.

Magic Johnson was on TV the other day talking about Kobe and Shaq and said that Kobe should have defered to Shaq the way Magic defered to Kareem. Magic said that he just wanted to keep Kareem happy, and if Kareem wanted the Lakers to be "his" team then Magic would say it's all yours, because the big man wins games.
If Zach had even half the passing skill of Kareem, i'd say yah. But Kareem could pass out (partly due to his height). Zach doesn't have a great passing skill, which hurts his game. He's not good at the pick'n'role either. Or getting the ball, and passing it back to the guard (or SF) and moving out of the way to kind of open up the lane (in a round-about way, this is a p'n'r) and cause the other team to double the SF/SG/PG, and leave Zach open.

Simply put, Zach isn't good enough to get away with these defeciencies, and mental lapses on defense and offense (no one on the team is, as of yet). He's also just not good enough to be a guy who takes over games and you can go to constantly. His game isn't geared towards creating his own shot (a must need in this kind of playing). Think of it his way (although Duncan kind of contradicts this)..who are the guys who've are the ones who have huge games in big games?

It's not Shaq, Duncan, Malone, Webber or the like. It's guys who can create shots off the dribble.

Kobe, McGrady, Jordan, Pippen, Clyde, Barkley, Stockton, etc..

I know this is kind of wandering a bit, but it brings back to my point. Zach isn't as good as he thinks he is, and needs to realize that. It'd make the game easier for him.
 

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I don't really see how anyone can say Zach is playing selfishly. in the last five games, he's averaged only 14 attempts a night. for the season, he's shooting 16.1 shots a night, which puts him 22nd in the league in attempts (and incidentally behind Miles' 16.4).

the guy has pretty much stopped shooting when surrounded. he's mostly taking decent shots. don't believe me? ask yourself how often lately have you seen him get his shot stuffed repeatedly? it's only happened once in my recent memory, and he was at point blank range.

if you want him to shoot less, who should shoot more? Dixon? Telfair? Przybilla?

he's also still 10th in the league in rebounding, despite a couple of off nights.

Randolph's defense still sucks, and I'm concerned about him having two bad rebounding nights so close together. but ask yourself--why is it so shocking that he's had two nights of 4 boards or less? it happens to guys like Ratliff or Przybilla or Miles all the time. it's shocking when Randolph does it because he's set the bar so high for himself because of his hard work in the past.

Randolph is clearly either playing while exhausted because of lack of conditioning, or his knee is bothering him more than any of us know. he'll have 5 turnover nights, but he just doesn't have 2 rebound, 8 point performances. I'm hoping it's just the conditioning.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
theWanker said:
I don't really see how anyone can say Zach is playing selfishly. in the last five games, he's averaged only 14 attempts a night. for the season, he's shooting 16.1 shots a night, which puts him 22nd in the league in attempts (and incidentally behind Miles' 16.4).

the guy has pretty much stopped shooting when surrounded. he's mostly taking decent shots. don't believe me? ask yourself how often lately have you seen him get his shot stuffed repeatedly? it's only happened once in my recent memory, and he was at point blank range.
getting ones shot blocked does not necessarily mean not taking a decent shot. It could be him not going up strong (he doesn't). I think it's more of the whining about his shots than his actual number of shots.
if you want him to shoot less, who should shoot more? Dixon? Telfair? Przybilla?

he's also still 10th in the league in rebounding, despite a couple of off nights.
I'd actually rather them run plays (and finish them) where they have guys taking outside shots more (telfair, dixon, monia, webster) SO it clears up the paint for both Darius and Zach. Clogging the lane makes it harder for Zach and Darius to score, especially since Zach causes a bit chunk of that. Even if the guys are not making the shots (it's not like they're even taking advantage of Monia or Webster (the few minutes he plays) it still opens up the court.

they'd be better to have Dixon or Telfair passing it into Zach, Zach getting doubled, and Zach passing to Dixon(or telfair) and Dixon(or telfair) passing to Monia or Webster on the other side of the floor, shooting an outside jumper.

Even if they don't make it, at least it's something different, and makes it so the teams have to be honest.

But I think the biggest concernt with Zach is how once he goes into a offensive mindset, he doesn't pass out, even if he is going into a double team.

How many times have we seen wide open players on our team?

Randolph's defense still sucks, and I'm concerned about him having two bad rebounding nights so close together. but ask yourself--why is it so shocking that he's had two nights of 4 boards or less? it happens to guys like Ratliff or Przybilla or Miles all the time. it's shocking when Randolph does it because he's set the bar so high for himself because of his hard work in the past.

Randolph is clearly either playing while exhausted because of lack of conditioning, or his knee is bothering him more than any of us know. he'll have 5 turnover nights, but he just doesn't have 2 rebound, 8 point performances. I'm hoping it's just the conditioning.
an off night for rebounding (for Zach) should be 6-8. Not 2.
 
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