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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
With all this Fizer 's trade value in the toliet talk and that the Jazz rejected him in a Marshall S and T , them Larry's concerns and conservative position on a $50M luxury tax

And..... for the fact that the Jazz have Collins, Amacehi and Borchardt at 5

And... for the fact that Sloan hates Tag

And ... for the fact that Stockon has 1 year left, Raul Lopez's health is a question + he is a rook , and because Rusty LaRue blows

And.. for the fact that Travis knows the pick and roll down pat

And.. for the fact that the Jazz now have no power forward depth behind the Mailman

And.. so we can address our need at back up Center

COULD ...

Chi stomach ( no pun intended ) Tag for the next 2 years at $7.8M and then $8.5M before he is off

IF ...

we sign and trade Travis with Marcus in a $6.5M package that would get it done

HOWEVER

For the fact that the Jazz save salary and allieviate L Tax concerns by a further $1.3M and for the fact that we are giving better quality back ( even though we face the prospect of no value on Travis anyway - so we assume Fizer straight up ) we would need the Jazz to throw a 2004 unconditional 1st round pick

Why 2004? Because Stockton and Malone will be gone this season and I reckon the Jazz will suck the year after when they will struggle to attract the big swinging d*ck free agent

Therefore I am banking on the fact that there 2004 1st round will be quite high

Other options

Maybe New York would be interested in Tag in a 3 way that gave us Harrington and Ward ( if NY had someone like EStrick lined up to replace Ward's spot )

Or we keep Tag where he increases his value for us next year with teams looking to trade for ending contracts by the trading deadline to cleanse payroll and that will be $8.5M worth next year - so that's the challenge - converting that into a role player(s) and maybe a 1st round draft pick

Fire away
 

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I like this trade a lot, but I think an unprotected 2004 first rounder will kill it for Utah. We probably could get this trade done for an unprotected 2003 first rounder or maybe top-5 protection for the 2004 first rounder.

With Marshall signed, Fizer simply has no role on this team.

One other point, we are probably in mid-level exception land the next two summers anyway, so this deal really doesn't have any negative cap consequences for us. In fact, by unloading Fizer, it may improve our cap position three summers from now.
 

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Ostertag would definitely be an upgrade for the back up C position, but to stomach paying that guy an average of 8.2 million over the next 2 years is impossible.

We are not going to make the playoffs anyway. No need to load up the roster with even more guys who are not part of the future.

Save some cap room for future years and see what is happening with the team and who becomes available.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Originally posted by <b>NCBullsFan</b>!
I like this trade a lot, but I think an unprotected 2004 first rounder will kill it for Utah. We probably could get this trade done for an unprotected 2003 first rounder or maybe top-5 protection for the 2004 first rounder.

With Marshall signed, Fizer simply has no role on this team.

One other point, we are probably in mid-level exception land the next two summers anyway, so this deal really doesn't have any negative cap consequences for us. In fact, by unloading Fizer, it may improve our cap position three summers from now.
NC

I am not so sure as to whether we could not wrangle a 2004 unconditional out of the Jazz

Apart from the fact Sloan hates Tag and personal issues aside , the buttons to press in selling the Jazz would be :



  • * Over the last 10 years Jazz have always been a veteran ball club and have seemingly plaved more value in vets to surround competent hands with Stock and Malone rather than progression planning and infusing young talent

    * However with picking wisely at the middle and end of the first round ( as well as having some luck ) they now have positional coverage at every spot with genuine young talent ( bar point ) if they do this trade .

    * They are all complementary too - Borchardt has a rep for a shotblocker on the defensive end and as face the basket jump shooting big man who is proficient ( allegedly ) of hitting the 3 - this clears room for Fizer to work the blocks . Kirlilenko is more of a slashing running type with no reliable shot at this stage and DeShawn has shown good athletic capacity at 2 as well as being able to create his own shot

    * They will end up with a mid 1st round draft pcik this year where quality role playing pass first point guards are always able to be found - and if they do this they already have their young nucleus in Borchardt,Collins ( assuming they resign Jarron ) Fizer,Kirilenko , DeShawn and point guard from 2003 draft ( ? ) Sell the pride issue to them - why do they want to still be d*cking around and reliant upon lottery picks the year after for ?

    * Sell the greed factor to them as well - the common sense economic reality - Dealing Greg Ostertag for Fizer preserves approximately $5M in salary cap to pursue the 2003 free agent pool

    * Further to this , and allowing for the cost of their draft pick at $1M and the resigning of Jarron Collins to say around $3.5M (estimate) and a 2nd round pick - they would have 7 players on the roster representing their entire young crew ( around half of their roster ) at an impressive $13M .

    *That's going to give them around $30M to go shopping with in free agency - had they not pulled the Tag for Fizer trade it (where they are already surplus in Tag's position ) they would only have $25M to spend

    * So in essence, Tag could get a Marcus Fizer and say a Corey Maggette

    * If you are the Jazz would you be prepared to give up Tag and forfeit an unconditional 2004 first rounder if it meant you got Fizer and Maggette and where you took a view that you did not want anymore rooks as you already have your young core in place representing half your roster ?

I say its a good trade for the Jazz to make and a price they have to pay to think they are going to be a big swinging d*ck operator next summer .

Sure we get Tag's salary dumped on us but we need size and backup help at Center to help lighten the load on Curry ( who would be the main man in the middle anyway )

I think one does not get this trade if they think literally in terms of Marcus for Tag - I think to understand it you have to think of thinning where we are thick and we won't get optimal production from our asset ( Marcus ) and thickening where we are thin (Center) to better protect an asset ( Curry )

You then have to extend your thinking further and equate Marcus then with a future unconditional 1st round pick and take an educated punt that it would translate to a lottery pick in 2004.

This "punt" is based on the fact that whilst the Jazz may find plenty of willing takers for their $30M pot , will they be the right takers and will they be able establish chemistry/continuity with the young core in the established and competitive Western Conference in their first year together .

I say no as the shadow of Stockton and Malone looms too large in year 1 of restructuring.

By 2004 hopefully we will be out of the lottery but we will still be in the hunt for a lottery pick if we think the Jazz we be in there.

So for us it really is a strategic progression planning exercise with the acquisition of young talent for depth that we can bring along slowly behind the established talent .

Looked at on this basis is where I believe you could rationalise it for both sides.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Originally posted by <b>sinkingship</b>!
Ostertag would definitely be an upgrade for the back up C position, but to stomach paying that guy an average of 8.2 million over the next 2 years is impossible.
Not necessarily - as I have already outlined, Ostertag becomes more of an asset in year 2 ( the final year of his contract ) to cleasnse someone's else's payroll with a surplus role player that may benefit us more elsewhere - the cream of which is customarily a 1st round pick thrown into the mix - so in effect Fizer for Tag could provide depth for a year and a half where we need it and net us two draft picks ( one from the first trade and the 2nd when a team needing to cleanse their cap has to cough one up )

In Year 2 as well there may be a few teams who are making a run at a title that are short a true big man like Tag who can give up 6 fouls on the opposing team's big man and bang with him to preserve the starters penalties/efforts in this regard - and he would still be an ending contract too.

Make no mistake - in some situations he most definately has value - probably more than Fizer short term - but for reasons that may not entirely relate to what happens on the court in a direct comparative of Fizer v Tag - which I have previously stated to understand this trade you can't think in terms so linear.

We are not going to make the playoffs anyway. No need to load up the roster with even more guys who are not part of the future.

Save some cap room for future years and see what is happening with the team and who becomes available.
We just might squeeze in this year - you never know. And as I say it helps/benefits Eddy Curry in his development in that he does not have to pull double duty in the post which may make him more intimidtaed to be aggressive for fear of racking up fouls.

Also as NC has pointed out it does not have ny bearing on saving cap for free agents over the next 2 years as we would exceed the next couple of years anyway in which case we only have the exceptions to use - so in this sense it is a neutral effect.
 
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