[LoyalBull]

The alternative to Jay Williams

As the Ming soap Opera continues, there is a REAL possibility that Jay Williams may not be available at #2!

I must admit I would be hard pressed not to take hard looks at LAs and GoldenStates offers of Lamar and the #8 and Jamison and the #3 respectively!

However, it is obvious Jwill wants Chicago and the feeling is more than mutual.

However, IF... J will is not available at #2, where do the Bulls look if they do not deal the pick?

IMHO there are only 3 players worth considering...

1.) Caron Butler. Guy will be a 3 in the NBA but plays much like a 4 in that he has a powerful game. He has an outside shot but can create his own offense off the dribble and is a good post up guy.

The concerns are his realitive lack of size and there are some questions about his defense.

No one, however, questions his desire, tenacity or heart.

Jordan is loving this kid and experts like David Aldridge tout him as the true superstar in this draft.

True, he does play a position (sf) that isn't one of the difficult positions to fill (PG, C) however, Curry is a Center and (supposedly) J Crawford is a point.

Pg. Crawford
Sg. Rose
Sf. Butler
Pf. Chandler
C. Curry

2.) Mike Dunleavy. This will most likely be Kruase's choice. he is a smart player, a decent athlete, a good defender, shooter and passer. He isn't Kobe but he isn't just a Dell Curry clone either.

The Drawbacks are that again he is a small forward and we won't have addressed our primary needs.

3.) Yao Ming. Quite simply the kid can play. He is nimble, he is athletic, and he is .... pretty tall too...

for his rebounds alone he is worth considering.

The problem? We create a log jam in the middle and attempt to make Chandler a 3. And his outside shot (up to this point) doesn't justify that move!

Who does this board think Kruase will take if J will is off the board when we select?

 

[Ron]

Welcome, LoyalBull!

I think Houston and China will still work out their political problems, and Ming will end up with Rockets...China is going to HAVE TO submit to the inevitable, IMO...which is allowing Mao to play in the U.S. without any real conditions (other than which has already been imposed upon his countryman in Dallas).

So I believe Williams will end up in Chicago on draft day.

 

[Songcycle]

Ming is a lock to Houston, lets take Flash Gordon.

 

[Crossword]

LB! Just wanted to say whats up man...

 

[settinUpShop]

I'd like to pose a hypothetical.

Assuming Houston takes Ming, and Krause just doesn't believe that JWill is what the Bulls need considering Jamal's progress and potential. What would be the deal that he would like the most?

Sicky Dimpkins has posed the following trade scenario:

Bulls trade with GS:

Fizer and #2

for

Fortson, Arenas, and #3

His motive is to fill out our bench. It seems like a good move to me. Can anyone beat it?

(Note with the 3 pick we can take a damn good player: Butler, Woods, Dunleavy)

 

[LoyalBull]

Originally posted by Budweiser_Boy
LB! Just wanted to say whats up man...

Whats up kid!

How are you doing?

 

[Crossword]

Originally posted by LoyalBull


Whats up kid!

How are you doing?

Not too bad man... I'll still be posting at Fanhome though.

Hey can you get Shabba over here? I'm moderating the Raptors and Wizards boards, and frankly there are no Wiz fans here! :laugh:

 

[Dan Rosenbaum]

Originally posted by settinUpShop
I'd like to pose a hypothetical.

Assuming Houston takes Ming, and Krause just doesn't believe that JWill is what the Bulls need considering Jamal's progress and potential. What would be the deal that he would like the most?

Sicky Dimpkins has posed the following trade scenario:

Bulls trade with GS:

Fizer and #2

for

Fortson, Arenas, and #3

His motive is to fill out our bench. It seems like a good move to me. Can anyone beat it?

(Note with the 3 pick we can take a damn good player: Butler, Woods, Dunleavy)

I have a set of trades on FJ's "Have our Cake" thread that I like a little better, but this trade isn't crazy. I like Arenas and Fizer for Fortson does give us a nice role player. I am not sure Fortson is a good defensive player, so the Fortson/Bagaric combination still could be deadly on the defensive end. He also reportedly is somewhat of me-firster who may not take sitting behind a 20 year-old too well. Finally, this trade could not take place on draft day, since we are over the cap until July and we are taking on more salary in this trade than we are giving up.

I think Arenas, #3, & #30
for #2 would be something that I would consider. I might even give the #44 back to Golden State.

 

[LoyalBull]

Originally posted by settinUpShop
I'd like to pose a hypothetical.

Assuming Houston takes Ming, and Krause just doesn't believe that JWill is what the Bulls need considering Jamal's progress and potential. What would be the deal that he would like the most?

Sicky Dimpkins has posed the following trade scenario:

Bulls trade with GS:

Fizer and #2

for

Fortson, Arenas, and #3

His motive is to fill out our bench. It seems like a good move to me. Can anyone beat it?

(Note with the 3 pick we can take a damn good player: Butler, Woods, Dunleavy)

I don't know that I would go that route... Fortson won't provide rebounds off the bench and REALLY (trust me) clogs up the middle on the offensive end. He is also a poor passer. His contract will do little but eat up cap space.

He is a bruiser to be sure (ala Oakley) but will only get in the way of developing Chandler at the 4.

As for Jwill... I think all sides concerned are sold on one another! :yes:

 

[bobalooey]

Originally posted by settinUpShop
I'd like to pose a hypothetical.

Assuming Houston takes Ming, and Krause just doesn't believe that JWill is what the Bulls need considering Jamal's progress and potential. What would be the deal that he would like the most?

Sicky Dimpkins has posed the following trade scenario:

Bulls trade with GS:

Fizer and #2

for

Fortson, Arenas, and #3

His motive is to fill out our bench. It seems like a good move to me. Can anyone beat it?

(Note with the 3 pick we can take a damn good player: Butler, Woods, Dunleavy)

 

[bobalooey]

Let me get this straight you want to pay GS to take the #2 pick. Isn't it supposed to be the other way around? GS wants our pick and what are they going to give us to make us want to flip flop with them? We give up the two and they give us the #3 and what? Remember they are hot to trot over JWill so we should get a sweetheart of a deal. What starter are they going to give us?

 

[LoyalBull]

Originally posted by bobalooey
Let me get this straight you want to pay GS to take the #2 pick. Isn't it supposed to be the other way around? GS wants our pick and what are they going to give us to make us want to flip flop with them? We give up the two and they give us the #3 and what? Remember they are hot to trot over JWill so we should get a sweetheart of a deal. What starter are they going to give us?

The only thing I would consider is Jrich and the #3 for Jwill and Fizer and/or Robinson...

But they won't do that:no:

The only starter that has any value is Antawn Jamison... and he is more of a tweener than Fizer is! Not to mention that contract is terrible!

Let Goldenstate flounder... Take Jwill and lets be done with it :yes:

 

[truebluefan]

Originally posted by LoyalBull


I don't know that I would go that route... Fortson won't provide rebounds off the bench and REALLY (trust me) clogs up the middle on the offensive end. He is also a poor passer. His contract will do little but eat up cap space.

He is a bruiser to be sure (ala Oakley) but will only get in the way of developing Chandler at the 4.

As for Jwill... I think all sides concerned are sold on one another! :yes:

You make a good point about fortson. This teams needs to leave the middle open for a couple of reasons. One being let Rose and williams or whoever else we might get use the middle to their advantage, to penetrate. The second reason is. leaving the middle open allows Curry and Chandler to operate down low! Thats one of the reasons why i have been against a bonzi wells trade. He is good, no doubt about it but he would clog things up underneath because part of his game is posting up.

 

[settinUpShop]

Wally's a good fit...

What happened to all the Wally Talk? Isn't he still the most logical choice for us? We need somebody who can shoot the lights out once teams start to swarm our twin-towers. Wally has shown an amazing ability to score from the perimeter - he would have some easy pickins.

I suppose the big question here would be -- is he worth the Max, as he will most likely ask and deserve such a contract.

A trade scenario would be:

Bulls Trade: PG Jay Williams (and all the associated hype/talent)
Change in team outlook: 0.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, and 0.0 apg.

Minnesota trades: SG Wally Szczerbiak (18.7 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 3.1 apg in 38.0 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -18.7 ppg, -4.8 rpg, and -3.1 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to Minnesota being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Minnesota had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Of course if you make the arguement that our 2 spot is strong with Hassell and ERob, then maybe we're making things redundant at the SG position. But what I like about this is the versatility.

Rose - all around game at both 2 &3
ERob - slashing, athletic at both 2 & 3
Hassell - good outside shot, all round game and defense at 2
Wally - deadly outside shot, solid all around game

Those who may be Wally detractors - he was on the all-star team for the WEST and that's no easy feat.

Just because Wally's entering his 4th season - that doesn't mean he doesn't still have upside potential. He would be entering the best years of his career as a Bull if he resigned with us.

 

[truebluefan]

Re: Wally's a good fit...

Originally posted by settinUpShop
What happened to all the Wally Talk? Isn't he still the most logical choice for us? We need somebody who can shoot the lights out once teams start to swarm our twin-towers. Wally has shown an amazing ability to score from the perimeter - he would have some easy pickins.

I suppose the big question here would be -- is he worth the Max, as he will most likely ask and deserve such a contract.

A trade scenario would be:

Bulls Trade: PG Jay Williams (and all the associated hype/talent)
Change in team outlook: 0.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, and 0.0 apg.

Minnesota trades: SG Wally Szczerbiak (18.7 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 3.1 apg in 38.0 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -18.7 ppg, -4.8 rpg, and -3.1 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to Minnesota being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Minnesota had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Of course if you make the arguement that our 2 spot is strong with Hassell and ERob, then maybe we're making things redundant at the SG position. But what I like about this is the versatility.

Rose - all around game at both 2 &3
ERob - slashing, athletic at both 2 & 3
Hassell - good outside shot, all round game and defense at 2
Wally - deadly outside shot, solid all around game

Those who may be Wally detractors - he was on the all-star team for the WEST and that's no easy feat.

Just because Wally's entering his 4th season - that doesn't mean he doesn't still have upside potential. He would be entering the best years of his career as a Bull if he resigned with us.

I like wally. I was one of the ones from trade deadline of 2001 to last summer and early fall that really wanted wally. Any tall guard or sf that shoots over 50% every year is ok by me. But that beig said, I think we can do even better than wally with the #2 pick. Also rumor is that minny wants to move jackson if a offer comes for wally. And i believe it was either myballshurt or dut86 that said JK considers Marc Jackson as dead weight. I would want odom and the #8 first or even baron davis before a deal for wally. Now if we had gotten the #3 through the #5 pick then yes, Talk of a trade for wally would be strong once again.

 

[Songcycle]

I share your love of Wally, but the 2 is too much to trade.. Dickie and MBSH have suggested Fizer and Crawford which may be a bit much, but if Wally is truly the final piece to the puzzle, I could go for it, but only if. Minnesota is going to want to make a move, it is a maybe. Still, I wonder if Wally is really going to resign at Minnesota because his situation there is not great, KG doesn't like him. Part of the problem with our youth, is it maybe too early to know what the final piece of the puzzle is going to be.. Right now, I do not know.

 

[ztect]

First any trade with GSW should be of picked 1st round players.
plus remember what GSW gave up to get Webber from the 3 spot


Orlando traded the rights to Chris Webber (pick 1) to Golden State for the rights to Anfernee Hardaway (pick 3) and three future first-round draft choices.

Obviously this was pre-CBA, but if GSW is really desparate for JWill the Bulls should extract value.

Fortson's 6 mill contract really isn't worth acquiring, simply becuase having an offensive spark off the bench is more critical than having a rebounding one off the bench. Fortson's $6 mill rebounding for Fizer's $3 mill scoring doesn't represent an upgrade. Curry and Chandler should also improve this fundamental aspect of their games with Cartwright as their mentor.

So since you're trading for bench players, if a player is to be included that player should be Foyal who can back up the 4 & 5. His contract is around $4 to $4.5 mill. Though Fizer wouldn't be included in that deal.

Instead since its a trade of picked players rather than picks, a trade of JWill, Hoiberg ($1 mill filler) for Butler(or Woods), the 30 and next year's top 3 protected pick (which would be unprotected the next year) to me would be preferable to picking up either Areanas or Fortson.

If it were a trade of picks, neither team would be able to trade a first round pick two years in a row.

The 29,43 or the 29, 30 or the 30, 43 could easily be bundled to a CAP strapped team looking to move out of the first round esp. a team with multiple first rounders.

At 22, or 25 the Bulls should easily be able to get a maddox or even maybe a FWill....Maybe the Bulls wouldn't even have to trade up if a lot of Euro's are drafted from pick 20 to30. Teams may pick these Euro's so they can leave them overseas.

Thus conceivably Maddox could be available at 29 or 30
Parker should be there for sure.
other PG's available at 29,30 and probably 43 may be
Taylor, and Bremmer.

So not keeping JWill wouldn't necessarily the end of the world.
Next years' PG classs should be strong as well esp. w/. Bozeman, and maybe Felton available.

 

[ztect]

NO TO WALLY

:no: :no: :no:

it isn't his offense...it's his lack of defense, plus his attitude

 

[pduh02]

My Reasons why I'm so high on Jay Williams for this year draft and more!!

Hey guys what sup?? Well, like I say in other thread I"m going to give my best explaination I can give and my reasons why we should draft Jay Williams and why I'm so high of him.

First thing first I would like to make a comparision on Jay Williams..............

Jay Williams is reminding me of Steve Franchis/Stephan Marbury mixed except that I think Jay is a better version then Marbury but in my view he is a close to compare as Steve Francis then Stephan Marbury which is a good thing. I see many people compare him to Steven Francis, Baron Davis, and even Tim Hardaway which to me is a very good comparsion for Jay Williams. But don't get me wrong Stephan Marbury is a good point guard even though some people or most people don't agree with me with that but I see that Jay is a better version of Marbury which more heart and more explorsure. Thats why I say he's close to be a Steve Franchis comparsion.

Now you all know that I'm very high on Jay Williams for this year 2002 draft. My explaination and my reasons why I'm so high on Jay Williams for this year draft is one we need to upgrade our backcourt depth I think JC can play the two but he just need to learn how to play better defense to guard the two guard guys like T-Mac, Kobe, Iverson, and etc. Or at least slow them down at least so JC need to be very agressive and build up much musciles he got the height but need to work alot of thing to be a two guard. Like one he need to be a good shooter for a two which he got a nice stroke when he shoot just need to learn to get a better percentage and other stuff to be a two guard.

It doesn't mean JC won't play point we can always switch off back and fourth with depend on the match up and depend what team we are facing JC can play both position and same with Jay so we can use mismatch up which is a really a good thing. Thats why I think we our youth we should build a dangerious backcourt depth like we are trying for the front court depth which we are sold about that. JC and Jay could be one dangerious back court depth if they develop their skills with both positions.

Thats one of other reasons why I'm so high on Jay Williams.........Another thing is that in my view that I think Jay is the most hype in this year class draft he have the heart, desire, and I think to me he have a very good work ethics and he say it himself he would be love to be with the Bulls which is a very good sign.

Also another thing I think he is the most ready player for the pro and I hope he will prove that when he start with the NBA and prove everybody else that is not a Jay Williams fan that he is belong to the pro and not a bust. I had that feeling he will......And one last thing I think Jay is a top talentive in this year draft can't pass up talent then Jay Williams for this year draft.......There is still nothing to change my mind of not drafting Jay Williams I"m still high on him and still am.

That is my explaining and why I"m so high on Jay Williams folks.

 

[pjc845]

You guys aren't thinking out of the box

Everyone is so concerned about "moving" Chandler to the 3 if we take Ming.

What does that mean anyways? Who says you need to have a prototypical PG,SG,SF,PF,C team anyways?

What is intriguing about what Ming would would add to the Bulls is that we would have an unstoppable lineup. Why does Chandler have to shoot from outside? When Ming can fill it up from long range? In fact, by drawing the tallest defender to the perimeter (you can't sit in a zone and expect a 6'6" guard to defend a 7'6" shooter), it opens up plenty of space for Curry and Chandler to operate down low.

On defense, some complain that Chandler wouldn't be able to handle the speed of some quicker 3's. So what? He's got arms and can block. Have him get in the face of the opponent's 3. And if someone blows by him, they're going to run into some big trees. They'll have to contend with Curry and a 7'6" shot blocker. See Olympics where Ming stuffed Gary Payton and blocked Vince Carter twice. Others complain that Ming isn't big enough and won't take the pounding in the NBA. That didn't stop him from swatting Alonzo Mourning in the Olympics. Plus he's already 296lbs and put him on some real weight training and some US corn fed beef, and he'll weigh well over 300 lbs. What more do you want? With Curry and Ming down low, Shaq would have problems.

Also, who needs a great PG, if you implement a motion offense, which I think is going to be the wave of the future in the NBA. The Kings and the Nets do it as does Dallas to some extent. Effect -- 3 of the most potent offenses in the NBA. The Triangle is something of a motion offense, in that it requires folks to move without the ball, doesn't require any one man/PG to start the play, and players do things based on what the defense gives ya. So in essence, add the Lakers to the list of motion offenses.

The point is that with Ming, no one can stop us. No one could keep up with us offensively. And I don't think we would suffer defensively. We would force folks to beat us on the perimeter, where 6'8" Rose and 6'6" Crawford roam with a 7'1" Chandler. Good luck. And again, I like our chances at stopping Shaq if we've got Chandler, Curry, and Ming collapsing on the big guy.

I don't want JWill. He can't make big shots and doesn't show up for the big games. Everyone that is knocking Ming points to the competition (nevermind the CBA includes former NBA ballers like Benoit Benjamin and Lloyd Daniels). But, this kid led his team to a championship on 21 for 21 shooting, 28 rebounds and 14 blocks. Its not NBA competition, but its at least as good as your typical Division I team. Those numbers are amazing.

The best thing for Chicago to do regardless of scenario is to try to get Yao Ming. Nevermind the marketing and revenue to be generated by locking up the 1.3 billion consumers in China and truly making the Chicago Bulls, not just Chicago's team, but the world's team.