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Incognasho
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Ok.. grab a cup of coffee, folks..

Listening to The Jet and Chuck on this subject made me realize how much discrepancy exists about the individual rankings of foreign players (Barkley had AK has his number one foreigner, while Smith had him at #7). There was a period of time when the term "foreigner" was used, the first thing that came to mind for most of us was probably a sweet shooting swingman with solid fundamentals and passing ability, who likely subscribed to the open-door technique defensively. With the arrival, and emergence as this year would have it, of foreign NBA talents like Ginobili and Kirilenko who specialize in creating havoc on the defensive end, Boris Diaw and Mickael Pietrus who may not have polished offensive games but have note-worthy all-around abilities, that label is slowly being shed, albeit the stereotypical foreign-type player exists today in the forms of Stojakovic, Radmanovich, Pavlovic, and even in real big guys like Mehmet Okur, Dirk Nowitzki and Bruno Sundov (sorry to lump those guys together, Piston and Maverick fans :D).

The value of each type of player can definitely be interpreted differently. For me, I'm looking at the value directly from a team standpoint, offensively and defensively. I'm not necessarily talking about "ay yo, derk wood k33l ak-47 in a 1 on 1,".. I'm going to catch some flak for this (maybe being a homer, I'm trying not to be), but let's get down to business, I'll start with a top ten:

1 - Tim Du.. err, Andrei Kirilenko - Okok, don't stop reading.. just hear me out. If you compared Dirk to Andrei from a one on one standpoint, Dirk would probably have more advantages (but after watching Jarron "The Snail-Sloth Hybrid" Collins put the ball on the floor and blow by Dirk for an uncontested layup from 20 feet out, I'd have my doubts in a make it, take it game if Kiri got the ball first).. Offensively he's no machine. His field goal percentage is probably inflated by the amount of tip-ins and garbage buckets he gets, but he's trying. He doesn't really have anyone to create a shot for him. The Jazz run plays for Stevenson, and they use back-cuts to try to get Harpring the ball inside. They don't run plays for Andrei, yet he has only scored in single digits twice this season.. he gets his points on his own by either creating or crashing. But we're talking about a big contributor on offense, AND a monster on defense. Andrei has yet to have a game without at least a steal or a block, only 6 games without one of each, which is a nice stat.. but pales in comparison to the 10 games where he got at least 3 steals and 3 blocks. One only need look at the +/- stats of teams when their defensive studs (Artest, Wallace, Kirilenko, Duncan) are on the court to see the true impact defense has on the game of basketball. Any student of the 82games.com philosophy would back me up on Kirilenko's monumental numbers in categories such as eFG% and PP100P, incredible, yet subjective, offensive statistics to add to his defensive prowess. 82games.com is by no means my Basketball Bible, but I definitely find some of their statistics and observations not only amusing, but perhaps for more relevant than run of the mill PPG/RPG/APG statistics, which really don't do a reliable of showing how much one individual's performance contributes to a win or loss of a team. I could say a lot more, but I foresee some debate here, and I'll reserve my other comments until then..

2 - Peja Stojakovic - This was a toughie, but I'm giving the silver medal on grounds of the "offensive merit" award, because as the saying often goes in football - The system makes the player.. Even though Rich Gannon had the 2nd most prolific passing year in NFL history a year ago, you kind of just knew he wasn't quite that good? This is how I feel about Stojakovic. Teams consistently man up on the Kings (any defense is futile against these guys, it's more of a pick your poison deal.. go zone and get beat with an around the horn passing system, till someone gets free and breaks the zone.. or go man up and get killed by Miller hitting Peja off of screens on the wings, or Vlade's bump and grind [modified pick and roll] with Bibby, where he turns around as Bibby goes by and knocks the opposing point guard off course with his hind parts. However, Peja's perfected perimeter presence is the poison primarily picked, perhaps pinheadedly), and as a result Peja is often found open for easy offense. I am honestly not trying to take anything away from Stojakovic's offense, because he truly is one of the prolific shooters of this era, or any other. Stojakovic is well-known, his game is understood, and I probably can't sway any feelings you have towards it.. so, I will waste no more time and move on to better musings..

3 - Emanuel Ginobili - When you got to the bold, I'm sure you were thinking: "Ok, he may have gone and pulled a 'hype up the home-town boy' on us, but surely he wouldn't think of putting anyone third other than Dir.. what? Will someone tell this *** that he put a guy who shoots 40% from the floor and scores 13 points a game ahead of one of the most versatile, talented 7 footers in the history of basketball?" To that I say, "Away with thee, mortal. Rejoin myself and the other enlightened ones when you leave the world of rotisserie and enter the world of vision." Ok, I probably wouldn't say that, but when you just watch Manu, there is something very special about the way he plays. It's not just one of those things where you say, "His impact goes beyond the stats," - it's one of those things where you say "His impact goes beyond his impact beyond the stats." You might say that San Antonio could be a dominant team if they had both Nowitzki and Duncan. Nowitzki's perimeter abilities and versatility would be a perfect compliment to Duncan's inside game and passing ability. It might. You might also be one of those who say that Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor are all among the top 20 players of all time. They played together for three years.. never won a championship. Fact is, despite not being an uber-talented team in a league full of uber-talented teams, the Spurs are.. well, they're the best.

4 - Yao Ming - I'm sorry. I really am, Yao. If you would have asked me about this at the beginning of the season, especially after the pre-season The Great Wall had, I probably would have had Yao pegged as the number one dude.. the head honcho.. el jeffe.. der Kaiser.. But someone needs to strap this guy down and make him watch The Last Samurai until he wants to dole out some punishment (hey, I'm not stereotyping.. there were some Chinese Samurai). Yao doesn't have the killer instinct. Why aren't his abilities being showcased? I thought Van Gundy was intent on making Yao the centerpiece of the Houston offense? How much more can he improve? Well, the stats aren't tremendous, but his impact with Houston as a team can't be denied.. despite a horrible first half by Francis, Houston is five games above five hundred.. that's probably why I give Yao the nod over..

5 - Dirk Nowitzki - Ok Irk, I may have shortchanged you by giving you the.. erm, what is the fifth place medal? But man, at least get into defensive stance when your guy has the ball 15 feet from the basket.. I mean, I know you folks are used to being on the attack and all, but even though you're launching the Battle of the Bulge, you've still got to keep in mind the defense of Berlin! Bad analogy, maybe.. His defense isn't THAT bad, but too often he does get burned unneccesarily. Offense is a skill, defense is a mindset. Dirk is Dallas' best player, but how much does that mean to this team in particular? If Dirk goes down for the season and Jamison and Howard get 10 more minutes per game, how much worse is Dallas? Individually great? Yes. Valuable to the Mavericks as a team? Definitely.. not like Manu is to the Spurs, imo.

6 - Pau Gasol - There's something about Pau. From the way he carries himself on the court, kind of loafing around for 10 minutes, and exploding for 12 pts in the next 2, to his constantly-on-the-verge-of-tears facial expression, to his.. well.. this:
(can't say what's worse, the picture itself or the.. erm.. not-so-unpleasantly-surprised look on J-Ho's face) there are oddities to Pau's game. You can't deny the production though, he gets 32 minutes a game and still puts up some big-time numbers. Of course, it's hard to get big minutes on a team who has so many players on the block. Hell, even the coach says it. "Some players are only getting minutes because we want to trade them." Well, they're probably not talking about Pau. I like Swift almost as much as I like Pau, but Pau is a very good player now, and if he was getting 40 minutes a game I am confident that based on his stats alone he would be getting far more recognition than he is now.

7 - Tony Parker - Although every time I hear Tony say "Teem" it makes me want to slap him, Parker makes my list at 7. He is the facilitator, not cornerstone or most valuable piece, but facilitator of the San Antonio offense. Without Tony, the Spurs went 3-4 and averaged around 83 points per ball game. Parker is not a great passer (solid), and he isn't all that polished.. he has a nice high arcing floater, but many of his moves seem awkward and uncoordinated. He has so much room to improve, and right now he'd only be a college senior had he been going to school in the American system. Tony, in time, could become a great point guard.

8 - Zydrunas Ilgauskas - I think Zydrunas has come a long way to be the 15/8 type player that he is today. He is having trouble in Cleveland right now, and Silas is frustrated with his inability to play defense. Big Z has been more than mature about it, didn't complain once (said Silas was right) and really does seem to be working on his lateral movement, and the past few games, he is visibly more aggressive at showing on screen and rolls, and I think Silas is taking the right approach by benching him in favor of Battie to show him that defense matters. Hopefully the new workload doesn't lead to more injuries for Big Z, because he really is talented for his size. His shot is as nice as Ming's. You have to be scared when he falls though, it just doesn't look right.. Cleveland doesn't really seem to have a dropoff in play when he's out (sometimes they struggle for offense), but his low post presence is definitely a valuable option for the team.


9 - Carlos Arroyo - I'm not being a homer here.. seriously.. the production is identical to Parker's, with a lot more flair and precision and a lot more mistakes.. he has considerably less upside than TP, but Arroyo was a diamond in the rough for Utah this year. He has zero athleticism, but has a bag of tricks that could hold all the polygamists in Utah.. Head fakes, ball fakes, wraparounds, spin moves, crossovers, you name it, CA does it. Despite his production and Utah playing well this season, Arroyo doesn't seem to be the future at point in Utah, and if he leaves for a team that will give him big minutes and doesn't hold him back offensively, he is capable of putting up Nash-like numbers. He has had some memorable battles with Nash in Olympic and qualifying games..

10 - Nene - Nene hasn't greatly improved on his rookie season statistically speaking, but he is quietly taking on a PJ Brown-type role for the suddenly successful Nuggets. He is more like a Hakeem on defense than a Brown, but overall I think PJ Brown is about as close a comparison I can draw at.. 4:00 am. He has Top 5 steal/block potential, he has huge, quick hands and a perfect PF body. He reminds of me a rookie Karl Malone. Very quick, very strong. It would have been extremely easy to put Nene up much higher, but I am not convinced of how much Denver's success resides in him personally.. drafting Carmelo and Camby's health has been paramount to Denver's success, and you can't overlook the contributions of Boykins, Miller, and Lenard. Nene's ceiling is.. a mile-high.

There are a ton of other great foreigners, a lot of them young that should be blossoming in the coming years, and I made this list strictly from a team MVP-type standpoint. On an individual talent basis, you're probably looking at something more along the lines of Dirk, Gasol, Ming, Stojakovic, Kirilenko, Ginobili, Nene, Okur, Radmanovich, and Parker..

So, give it up now.. who are the 10 best foreigners in the NBA right now? No comments necessary, just want to know what the consensus looks like..

EDIT: Pau's picture wasn't cooperating, should be working now..
 

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Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
Ok.. grab a cup of coffee, folks..

Listening to The Jet and Chuck on this subject made me realize how much discrepancy exists about the individual rankings of foreign players (Barkley had AK has his number one foreigner, while Smith had him at #7). There was a period of time when the term "foreigner" was used, the first thing that came to mind for most of us was probably a sweet shooting swingman with solid fundamentals and passing ability, who likely subscribed to the open-door technique defensively. With the arrival, and emergence as this year would have it, of foreign NBA talents like Ginobili and Kirilenko who specialize in creating havoc on the defensive end, Boris Diaw and Mickael Pietrus who may not have polished offensive games but have note-worthy all-around abilities, that label is slowly being shed, albeit the stereotypical foreign-type player exists today in the forms of Stojakovic, Radmanovich, Pavlovic, and even in real big guys like Mehmet Okur, Dirk Nowitzki and Bruno Sundov (sorry to lump those guys together, Piston and Maverick fans :D).

The value of each type of player can definitely be interpreted differently. For me, I'm looking at the value directly from a team standpoint, offensively and defensively. I'm not necessarily talking about "ay yo, derk wood k33l ak-47 in a 1 on 1,".. I'm going to catch some flak for this (maybe being a homer, I'm trying not to be), but let's get down to business, I'll start with a top ten:

1 - Tim Du.. err, Andrei Kirilenko - Okok, don't stop reading.. just hear me out. If you compared Dirk to Andrei from a one on one standpoint, Dirk would probably have more advantages (but after watching Jarron "The Snail-Sloth Hybrid" Collins put the ball on the floor and blow by Dirk for an uncontested layup from 20 feet out, I'd have my doubts in a make it, take it game if Kiri got the ball first).. Offensively he's no machine. His field goal percentage is probably inflated by the amount of tip-ins and garbage buckets he gets, but he's trying. He doesn't really have anyone to create a shot for him. The Jazz run plays for Stevenson, and they use back-cuts to try to get Harpring the ball inside. They don't run plays for Andrei, yet he has only scored in single digits twice this season.. he gets his points on his own by either creating or crashing. But we're talking about a big contributor on offense, AND a monster on defense. Andrei has yet to have a game without at least a steal or a block, only 6 games without one of each, which is a nice stat.. but pales in comparison to the 10 games where he got at least 3 steals and 3 blocks. One only need look at the +/- stats of teams when their defensive studs (Artest, Wallace, Kirilenko, Duncan) are on the court to see the true impact defense has on the game of basketball. Any student of the 82games.com philosophy would back me up on Kirilenko's monumental numbers in categories such as eFG% and PP100P, incredible, yet subjective, offensive statistics to add to his defensive prowess. 82games.com is by no means my Basketball Bible, but I definitely find some of their statistics and observations not only amusing, but perhaps for more relevant than run of the mill PPG/RPG/APG statistics, which really don't do a reliable of showing how much one individual's performance contributes to a win or loss of a team. I could say a lot more, but I foresee some debate here, and I'll reserve my other comments until then..

2 - Peja Stojakovic - This was a toughie, but I'm giving the silver medal on grounds of the "offensive merit" award, because as the saying often goes in football - The system makes the player.. Even though Rich Gannon had the 2nd most prolific passing year in NFL history a year ago, you kind of just knew he wasn't quite that good? This is how I feel about Stojakovic. Teams consistently man up on the Kings (any defense is futile against these guys, it's more of a pick your poison deal.. go zone and get beat with an around the horn passing system, till someone gets free and breaks the zone.. or go man up and get killed by Miller hitting Peja off of screens on the wings, or Vlade's bump and grind [modified pick and roll] with Bibby, where he turns around as Bibby goes by and knocks the opposing point guard off course with his hind parts. However, Peja's perfected perimeter presence is the poison primarily picked, perhaps pinheadedly), and as a result Peja is often found open for easy offense. I am honestly not trying to take anything away from Stojakovic's offense, because he truly is one of the prolific shooters of this era, or any other. Stojakovic is well-known, his game is understood, and I probably can't sway any feelings you have towards it.. so, I will waste no more time and move on to better musings..

3 - Emanuel Ginobili - When you got to the bold, I'm sure you were thinking: "Ok, he may have gone and pulled a 'hype up the home-town boy' on us, but surely he wouldn't think of putting anyone third other than Dir.. what? Will someone tell this *** that he put a guy who shoots 40% from the floor and scores 13 points a game ahead of one of the most versatile, talented 7 footers in the history of basketball?" To that I say, "Away with thee, mortal. Rejoin myself and the other enlightened ones when you leave the world of rotisserie and enter the world of vision." Ok, I probably wouldn't say that, but when you just watch Manu, there is something very special about the way he plays. It's not just one of those things where you say, "His impact goes beyond the stats," - it's one of those things where you say "His impact goes beyond his impact beyond the stats." You might say that San Antonio could be a dominant team if they had both Nowitzki and Duncan. Nowitzki's perimeter abilities and versatility would be a perfect compliment to Duncan's inside game and passing ability. It might. You might also be one of those who say that Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor are all among the top 20 players of all time. They played together for three years.. never won a championship. Fact is, despite not being an uber-talented team in a league full of uber-talented teams, the Spurs are.. well, they're the best.

4 - Yao Ming - I'm sorry. I really am, Yao. If you would have asked me about this at the beginning of the season, especially after the pre-season The Great Wall had, I probably would have had Yao pegged as the number one dude.. the head honcho.. el jeffe.. der Kaiser.. But someone needs to strap this guy down and make him watch The Last Samurai until he wants to dole out some punishment (hey, I'm not stereotyping.. there were some Chinese Samurai). Yao doesn't have the killer instinct. Why aren't his abilities being showcased? I thought Van Gundy was intent on making Yao the centerpiece of the Houston offense? How much more can he improve? Well, the stats aren't tremendous, but his impact with Houston as a team can't be denied.. despite a horrible first half by Francis, Houston is five games above five hundred.. that's probably why I give Yao the nod over..

5 - Dirk Nowitzki - Ok Irk, I may have shortchanged you by giving you the.. erm, what is the fifth place medal? But man, at least get into defensive stance when your guy has the ball 15 feet from the basket.. I mean, I know you folks are used to being on the attack and all, but even though you're launching the Battle of the Bulge, you've still got to keep in mind the defense of Berlin! Bad analogy, maybe.. His defense isn't THAT bad, but too often he does get burned unneccesarily. Offense is a skill, defense is a mindset. Dirk is Dallas' best player, but how much does that mean to this team in particular? If Dirk goes down for the season and Jamison and Howard get 10 more minutes per game, how much worse is Dallas? Individually great? Yes. Valuable to the Mavericks as a team? Definitely.. not like Manu is to the Spurs, imo.

6 - Pau Gasol - There's something about Pau. From the way he carries himself on the court, kind of loafing around for 10 minutes, and exploding for 12 pts in the next 2, to his constantly-on-the-verge-of-tears facial expression, to his.. well.. this:
(can't say what's worse, the picture itself or the.. erm.. not-so-unpleasantly-surprised look on J-Ho's face) there are oddities to Pau's game. You can't deny the production though, he gets 32 minutes a game and still puts up some big-time numbers. Of course, it's hard to get big minutes on a team who has so many players on the block. Hell, even the coach says it. "Some players are only getting minutes because we want to trade them." Well, they're probably not talking about Pau. I like Swift almost as much as I like Pau, but Pau is a very good player now, and if he was getting 40 minutes a game I am confident that based on his stats alone he would be getting far more recognition than he is now.

7 - Tony Parker - Although every time I hear Tony say "Teem" it makes me want to slap him, Parker makes my list at 7. He is the facilitator, not cornerstone or most valuable piece, but facilitator of the San Antonio offense. Without Tony, the Spurs went 3-4 and averaged around 83 points per ball game. Parker is not a great passer (solid), and he isn't all that polished.. he has a nice high arcing floater, but many of his moves seem awkward and uncoordinated. He has so much room to improve, and right now he'd only be a college senior had he been going to school in the American system. Tony, in time, could become a great point guard.

8 - Zydrunas Ilgauskas - I think Zydrunas has come a long way to be the 15/8 type player that he is today. He is having trouble in Cleveland right now, and Silas is frustrated with his inability to play defense. Big Z has been more than mature about it, didn't complain once (said Silas was right) and really does seem to be working on his lateral movement, and the past few games, he is visibly more aggressive at showing on screen and rolls, and I think Silas is taking the right approach by benching him in favor of Battie to show him that defense matters. Hopefully the new workload doesn't lead to more injuries for Big Z, because he really is talented for his size. His shot is as nice as Ming's. You have to be scared when he falls though, it just doesn't look right.. Cleveland doesn't really seem to have a dropoff in play when he's out (sometimes they struggle for offense), but his low post presence is definitely a valuable option for the team.


9 - Carlos Arroyo - I'm not being a homer here.. seriously.. the production is identical to Parker's, with a lot more flair and precision and a lot more mistakes.. he has considerably less upside than TP, but Arroyo was a diamond in the rough for Utah this year. He has zero athleticism, but has a bag of tricks that could hold all the polygamists in Utah.. Head fakes, ball fakes, wraparounds, spin moves, crossovers, you name it, CA does it. Despite his production and Utah playing well this season, Arroyo doesn't seem to be the future at point in Utah, and if he leaves for a team that will give him big minutes and doesn't hold him back offensively, he is capable of putting up Nash-like numbers. He has had some memorable battles with Nash in Olympic and qualifying games..

10 - Nene - Nene hasn't greatly improved on his rookie season statistically speaking, but he is quietly taking on a PJ Brown-type role for the suddenly successful Nuggets. He is more like a Hakeem on defense than a Brown, but overall I think PJ Brown is about as close a comparison I can draw at.. 4:00 am. He has Top 5 steal/block potential, he has huge, quick hands and a perfect PF body. He reminds of me a rookie Karl Malone. Very quick, very strong. It would have been extremely easy to put Nene up much higher, but I am not convinced of how much Denver's success resides in him personally.. drafting Carmelo and Camby's health has been paramount to Denver's success, and you can't overlook the contributions of Boykins, Miller, and Lenard. Nene's ceiling is.. a mile-high.

There are a ton of other great foreigners, a lot of them young that should be blossoming in the coming years, and I made this list strictly from a team MVP-type standpoint. On an individual talent basis, you're probably looking at something more along the lines of Dirk, Gasol, Ming, Stojakovic, Kirilenko, Ginobili, Nene, Okur, Radmanovich, and Parker..

So, give it up now.. who are the 10 best foreigners in the NBA right now? No comments necessary, just want to know what the consensus looks like..

EDIT: Pau's picture wasn't cooperating, should be working now..
Awesome post, but I'm still not on the Manu bandwagon. Oh and I think that dirk is more dangerous offensivly. Other than Shaq, when his shot is falling (which is most of the time) Dirk is the most unstopable offensive force in basketball period.
 

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Too long to read everything (but nice work for sure), but I agree on all the places in the order you put them. And as Ilgauskas is Lithuanian as me I want to add some words here.

There are some people in NBA. For example, Oliver Miller cant stop eating tons of hotdogs and tries to trick the scale before the season, or Ron Tarplay who couldnt live without drugs. There are players who being benchwarmers in one team suddenly explode in other or just become better under different coach. Ilgauskas hasnt problems nor with food, nor with drugs, nor with talent.

So I say what sucks in Cleveland is Silas. I dont refer about his overall coaching or his input into wining, cause I dont care about that, I care just about Big Z's good playing. So I think that he would play better with other coach or in other team as well. What I remember from Z playing here in Lithuania, he wasnt lazy on D at all, what he needs is motivation. And I think it was hard to get playing with such attitudes as Ricky Davis, so Z sometimes looked kinda sleepy and dissapeared in games, but Silas shouldnt deal with that yelling at Z, but in other ways. I believe that Z could get bigger numbers as he had last season, cause it was first season after big injuries and he was brought back slowly. I dont see much games of Cavs, but Z has normal blocks average so I dont get why is he called so bad in defense by Silas. What I hope is that Ilgauskas would leave Cleveland in summer.
 

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1 Kirilenko
2 Stojakovic
3 Nash
4 Dirk
5 Ming
6 Gasol
7 Ginobili
8 Divac
9 Arroyo
10 Okur
(Better offensively than Nene and an under-rated defender. Markedly superior per 48 minute statistics, including edges in points, rebounds and blocks. Nene has more potential, but right now Okur is better)
 

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I don't think Kirilenko is better than Peja yet, maybe he will be in a year or 2.

1. Peja
2. Kirilenko
3. Nowitzki
4. Nash
5. Gasol
6. Yao
7. Parker
8. Ginobili
9. Divac
10. Ilgauskas
 

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I think Sovereignz just forgot him. I would put Nash at 3 in my rankings after Kirilenko and Stojakovic and after longer consideration I think that I would probably move Ginobili and put him after Yao, Dirk and Gasol.
 

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Dirk, hands down.
 

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Good post Sovereignz .


1- kirilenko
2-Nowitzki
3- Stojakovic
4-gasol
5-yao
6-Nash
7-Z
8-gino
9-parker
10-Nesterovic

one thing for sure : it's really frustrating to make this type of ranking : finally i'm just sure of one thing -If i had to choose one amid them , it would be kirilenko.
 

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this season so far

peja
ak47
dirk

overall + playoffs

dirk
.
.
.
peja


Playoff

G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG
35 35 42.2 .456 .415 .893 1.30 9.60 10.90 2.0 1.37 .86

TO PF PPG
2.17 3.30 25.5

he is 5-2 in win or go home games and had something like 31 points and 12 boards in those games

he will be back at the top at the end of the season
 

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id say dirk is tops
manu will be one of the best players in the league in 2 years
peja is solid, but not much d
AK 47 scares me when i think how good he could get
toni kukoc is solid as well but people forget about him cause hes old and too slow
 

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If I had to choose one for my team, I would choose Kirilenko... if I could choose two, I would choose Kirilenko and Ginobili. You can get scoring other places, but you can't get the kind of energy and disruption that those guys bring anywhere else. And they're talented offensive players, especially Ginobili, they just don't produce a lot.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I purposely didn't add Nash or Magloire. Had I, I probably would have stuck Nash 5ish and Magloire 8ish.
 

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Interesting topic, Soveirgnz. I appreciate you bringing it up, because I am a big fan of the international players in the NBA. At the forum of http://www.interbasket.net/, there is a pretty consistant discussion about this. I appreciate your analysis of all the players, it's fun to read.

As you mentioned, each of these players has different abilities, so in a way, it is like comparing apples and oranges. Just like every US-born NBA player has different abilities, so do the international players. As you said, they bring in so many different aspects of the game.

I don't know which international player I like the most. There are some great ones, there really are. And a lot of them are a real joy to follow. I couldn't rank the players based on ability, because, well, I just enjoy following their careers and personalities, etc. You gotta' love Ginobili's heart, Yao's personality, AK's toughness...and, uh, Ebi's ability to play in garbage time ;).

Matt
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Originally posted by <b>JustinSane</b>!
10 Okur
(Better offensively than Nene and an under-rated defender. Markedly superior per 48 minute statistics, including edges in points, rebounds and blocks. Nene has more potential, but right now Okur is better)
I was actually debating between Mehmet and Nene, but I think Nene plays a more vital role to his team at this point.. I had a big long thing on Memo, but it ended up being deleted, heh. Basically I was saying that Brown is kind of like a Riley in the sense that, "If you're 7 feet tall, get your *** on the block," - and it's kind of a tribute to Memo considering the way he plays & what Brown is doing to Darko this year that he gets minutes..

However, it seems like whenever he gets into the game one time and plays bad, he's done for the night.. giving a player inconsistent minutes like that and benching them is a recipe for chaos to a player's confidence, and I know this routine pretty well from being a Joe Johnson fan.. Joe's biggest adversary was his own confidence (it still is, to a point), but since D'Antoni's come in and fed him a consistent 38mpg, he's starting to become a steady player, and dumping Penny has Joe looking ahead instead of over his shoulder. Memo has a very nice game and his production in the time he's given is admirable. I seem to recall a few near 20-rebound games.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
3 - Emanuel Ginobili - When you got to the bold, I'm sure you were thinking: "Ok, he may have gone and pulled a 'hype up the home-town boy' on us, but surely he wouldn't think of putting anyone third other than Dir.. what? Will someone tell this *** that he put a guy who shoots 40% from the floor and scores 13 points a game ahead of one of the most versatile, talented 7 footers in the history of basketball?" To that I say, "Away with thee, mortal. Rejoin myself and the other enlightened ones when you leave the world of rotisserie and enter the world of vision." Ok, I probably wouldn't say that, but when you just watch Manu, there is something very special about the way he plays. It's not just one of those things where you say, "His impact goes beyond the stats," - it's one of those things where you say "His impact goes beyond his impact beyond the stats." You might say that San Antonio could be a dominant team if they had both Nowitzki and Duncan. Nowitzki's perimeter abilities and versatility would be a perfect compliment to Duncan's inside game and passing ability. It might. You might also be one of those who say that Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor are all among the top 20 players of all time. They played together for three years.. never won a championship. Fact is, despite not being an uber-talented team in a league full of uber-talented teams, the Spurs are.. well, they're the best.

4 - Yao Ming - I'm sorry. I really am, Yao. If you would have asked me about this at the beginning of the season, especially after the pre-season The Great Wall had, I probably would have had Yao pegged as the number one dude.. the head honcho.. el jeffe.. der Kaiser.. But someone needs to strap this guy down and make him watch The Last Samurai until he wants to dole out some punishment (hey, I'm not stereotyping.. there were some Chinese Samurai). Yao doesn't have the killer instinct. Why aren't his abilities being showcased? I thought Van Gundy was intent on making Yao the centerpiece of the Houston offense? How much more can he improve? Well, the stats aren't tremendous, but his impact with Houston as a team can't be denied.. despite a horrible first half by Francis, Houston is five games above five hundred.. that's probably why I give Yao the nod over..

5 - Dirk Nowitzki - Ok Irk, I may have shortchanged you by giving you the.. erm, what is the fifth place medal? But man, at least get into defensive stance when your guy has the ball 15 feet from the basket.. I mean, I know you folks are used to being on the attack and all, but even though you're launching the Battle of the Bulge, you've still got to keep in mind the defense of Berlin! Bad analogy, maybe.. His defense isn't THAT bad, but too often he does get burned unneccesarily. Offense is a skill, defense is a mindset. Dirk is Dallas' best player, but how much does that mean to this team in particular? If Dirk goes down for the season and Jamison and Howard get 10 more minutes per game, how much worse is Dallas? Individually great? Yes. Valuable to the Mavericks as a team? Definitely.. not like Manu is to the Spurs, imo.
Why the big gap between Peja and Dirk? If you are going to put Peja 2nd... what major justification is there in putting Dirk 5th? None of them are anything liable on defense, although Peja gets the edge, but with his height and mediocre post play, I'd give the edge to Dirk on offense. I don't see Peja creating alot of baskets for himself although he has slowly mastered the backdoor cut. As much as I love Peja I'll give Dirk the edge here because of the elevation he can get over his man and at times can score at will. Peja being a pure shooter, needs to get going and you can't ALWAYS bank on him to keep you in the game without open looks.

As for Ginobili being ahead of Yao, I have no idea why Yao get's snubbed on the argument 'his impact goes beyong the numbers.' Do you have any idea how many shots Yao Ming alters in the paint? When you have 7'6 hurdling towards you don't tell me you can calmly nail your shot. My main complaint, as was yours, is his lack of aggressiveness and off the ball offensive intensity. The guy seriously has issues with 6'9 centers shoving elbows in his back keeping him 10-12 ft away from the basket. Once he gets his positioning in place he will rise to the top of this chart... in no time.
 

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If I was building a team around a foreign player, I'd take them in this order:

1. Dirk Nowitski
2. Pedrag Stojakovic
3. Andrei Kirilenko
4. Yao Ming
5. Pau Gasol
6. Manu Ginobili
7. Zydrunas Ilgauskas
8. Tony Parker
9. Mehmet Okur
10. Nene
 

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Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
Dirk, hands down.
i agree,however if i were participating in some kind of draft of international(correct term) players then i think i might go with darko milicic first followed by yao. darko is going to be one of the better centers in the league if not the best in about 3 years. he'll top out at about 7-2 with about a 7-6 wingspan and great lateral quickness,whether he ever becomes a great shooter i see him as a great rebounder/defender/shotblocker, who can also score 20 a night.
 

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Incognasho
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Discussion Starter #19
Re: Re: The best foreign NBA players..

Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!

Why the big gap between Peja and Dirk? If you are going to put Peja 2nd... what major justification is there in putting Dirk 5th? None of them are anything liable on defense, although Peja gets the edge, but with his height and mediocre post play, I'd give the edge to Dirk on offense. I don't see Peja creating alot of baskets for himself although he has slowly mastered the backdoor cut. As much as I love Peja I'll give Dirk the edge here because of the elevation he can get over his man and at times can score at will. Peja being a pure shooter, needs to get going and you can't ALWAYS bank on him to keep you in the game without open looks.

As for Ginobili being ahead of Yao, I have no idea why Yao get's snubbed on the argument 'his impact goes beyong the numbers.' Do you have any idea how many shots Yao Ming alters in the paint? When you have 7'6 hurdling towards you don't tell me you can calmly nail your shot. My main complaint, as was yours, is his lack of aggressiveness and off the ball offensive intensity. The guy seriously has issues with 6'9 centers shoving elbows in his back keeping him 10-12 ft away from the basket. Once he gets his positioning in place he will rise to the top of this chart... in no time.
I stated that I was basing this off of the individual's value to their team specifically in the original post, which is how I would look at an MVP-type vote. I gave Dirk the nod as the most talented foreigner, and I did so pretty decisively, there wasn't much doubt there for me. Dirk hasn't been nearly the same player this year that he has in the last couple. Part of that is definitely the injuries, and I also think Dallas having 'Toine is a big part of that. Peja is a solid defender, where Dirk is just not good on defense. Peja does actually create a fair amount of shots for himself. He is a master at getting open, and while that isn't creating the shot for himself, he has such good passers around him that it his movement will virtually almost always end up in an open shot. He is also great at goading other players into fouls with ball fakes and head fakes, and he needs almost no space to get off his shot.

"Do you have any idea how many shots Yao Ming alters in the paint?"

He blocks 9.8% of all shots in the paint when he's on the floor, tied for ninth in the NBA. (In the top ten, there's 6 centers, 3 PF's, and 1 small forward. Guess who the small forward is :D) How many he alters is pretty subjective, but it's a lot. His height is definitely a huge factor in the amount of shots he deters, but the fact that he doesn't jump to get his blocks is nearly, but not quite, an equalizer. Needless to say, he would be in the top ten in "shots altered" if there was such a stat.

Why do I put Manu ahead of him? Well, a lot of it is just how much I value one guys contribution to his team as a whole when he's on the floor. I mean, yeah, Yao alters a ton of shots, but maybe you could fill me in on what other ways he changes the game? He's a solid mid-range shooter, he makes nice passes, but how much does that all affect the outcome of the game, compared to a Manu - slashing, breaking down defense and creating open shots for his teammates.. getting his hands in the passing lanes and tipping away balls, running around like a fly and causing havoc.. making game altering plays all the time with his athleticism and creativity, taking over games when his team needs him to (bulls fans?)..

That's just how I see it.. the Spurs without Manu is like a twinkie without filling.. it might still be good, but it's just not the same.. :D
 

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Incognasho
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Discussion Starter #20
Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
If I was building a team around a foreign player, I'd take them in this order:

1. Dirk Nowitski
2. Pedrag Stojakovic
3. Andrei Kirilenko
4. Yao Ming
5. Pau Gasol
6. Manu Ginobili
7. Zydrunas Ilgauskas
8. Tony Parker
9. Mehmet Okur
10. Nene
Hmm.. if I'm looking at it that way, then my list is definitely a lot different than the first one I made. But if you were the Bobcats, would you really take a P-Stoy over the potential in a guy like Ming, Gasol, or even AK? I don't know if I would, but that's because I buy in to the "system makes the player" argument in Peja's case.. He's such a great shooter, but would he average 25ppg and shoot 51% or whatever he does from the floor with the Blazers? I would also take Nene before I took Ilgauskas or maybe even Okur.
 
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