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Obviously you refuse to give Thibs any credit on his ability to develop players. So there really is no point in even debating with you any further on the matter.
I don't give him no credit. But you seem to act as though Thibs just magically conjured this improvement. The majority of the credit should go the players themselves for their hard work. I am not a big believer that, particularly for Jimmy - whose major improvement occurred during the offseason when he made a point to escape Thibs - that the lion's share of the credit goes to anyone other than Jimmy himself.

Covering more court = injuries now?
Can you credibly argue otherwise, particularly for a big, and particularly for a big with repetitive stress injuries like Noah has struggled with? I am not saying anything controversial.

Funny on how the two years that Thibs pushed him past the brink was his best years as a basketball PERIOD. The whole minutes excuse is sooo overused and is being used as a big excuse as to why these guys can't stay healthy. Who's to say that Noah's injuries weren't caused by his refusal to change shoes for 2 seasons when people where bringing up the idea that his french shoes could be hurting his feet?
I think I've been pretty clear that the guys Thibs gives huge minutes are going to produce really well during that period of time. The question is at what cost.

I agree that we don't know that Thibs overusing Noah caused his injuries. It's just one factor to look at. The team did that in conjunction with sports medicine personnel and came up with a plan to address that particular factor. Thibs hated the plan and violated it routinely.

Again, this is not controversial.

McDermott played very few minutes and he could not stay healthy.
He had a single acute injury.

Taj Gibson wasn't a big minutes guy and he would get injured consistently.
True. He twisted his ankles a lot. Hardly a repetitive stress injury.

Pau Gasol played big minutes and yet he was healthy for a large part of the season.
Agreed.

Jimmy played huge minutes and was only hurt on a couple of freak plays.
Funny. When Taj suffers ankle sprains or McDermott needs a knee scope, you cite those as evidence to favor your argument. But when Jimmy has similar injuries, those are "freak plays."

Rose had the TIGHTEST minutes restriction of any player in the NBA and was still injured.
I have no idea whether 32 minutes was the tightest restriction in the NBA, but yes, he was injured yet again. More minutes would have prevented this, then?

INJURIES HAPPEN.


They sure do. You can't stop them. But the current sports medicine consensus seems to think that you can reduce their frequency by adhering to certain practices. Again, I'm not sure why you're bristling at this, other than you hate GarPax and just want to believe that anything they would implement must be wrongheaded.

Just proves that the whole minute excuse is overblown.
I agree that the minutes thing is only one factor in the decision to dismiss Thibs and, in and of itself, may not have been a fireable offense. Of course, we know there was plenty more.

As much as people wan't to portray Jimmy as a nice aww shucks cowboy, the dude is probably the most selfish player on the team. So if he was the guy who said he would not be at the advocate center if Thibs was there, was probably not going to be there anyways regardless of who is there.
He was there in years past, was he not? I'm not sure why selfishness in playing style would have anything to do with where you train, either.

Rose trains in California, Jordan stayed away from the Berto Center and worked out with his own guys on the west side. Some guys went back to their home states and worked out there on their own too. People act like training outside of their team controlled buildings is a new thing.

It's been reported that players specifically threatened to avoid the Advocate Center this summer if Thibs were around. If you don't want to believe that, that's fine. But don't act like this isn't Thibs-related. You're just not being honest.
 

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I think you have lost yourself in this .

i'm talking about the minutes thibs doled out to his players as not really being all that serious by comparing it to Jackson.

you retort today's players are more athletic and explosive than players than they were 25 years ago....doesn't matter because PJ's high minute players were more athletic than thibs high minute guys
This makes no sense. And geez, if you can't see that this sample size renders the whole thing ridiculous, I don't know what to tell you.

Players are bigger and stronger now. Their ligaments are not. They get injured more frequently. Maybe one causes the other and maybe it doesn't, but burying your head in the sand isn't an option.

heck LeBron who is a pretty athletic guy and he plays today averages 39.3 minutes a game over his 12 year career 42.4 in the playoffs .

anyone ever fire his coach for playing him too much?
So?

anyone complaining his career is being shortened ?

you gonna rack your brain and try to argue that somehow he isn't a good enough example?
LeBron is durable, therefore all NBA players are durable. I get it.

its a stupid reason to get into a serious beef with your coach and now they have done it with 2 head coaches in a row .
No, it's management's job to protect the players if necessary. What's "stupid" is a coach not being able to live with a minutes restriction to protect players. In any other normal job, is it ok to simply flaunt these sorts of directives from your bosses?

To me, this falls into one of those areas where even if Thibs disagrees or isn't convinced by the data, he has to fall in line. To simply be insubordinate about it, and publicly rail against it, is not professional.

Hopefully in his next gig he'll find a front office that doesn't believe in such limits, and then he'll be fine.

its all a distraction from people asking the right questions about their lack of results in the front office

at what point do you say enough is enough ?
It's not a distraction. People should be perfectly capable both of thinking about the minutes issue and also thinking about whether the FO has done a good job. It doesn't take that much brain power to have thoughts on both issues.
 

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I'm still wondering how these modern athletes who have every advantage in terms of diet and conditioning, medical advances, better equipment, advanced sports science and training etc etc etc are having a hard time playing minutes that the guys from 60s shrugged off as normal when the game was 30% faster back then (meaning lots more trips up and down the court), they were playing in Chucks (which are basically canvas with cardboard soles), on atrocious surfaces (see Boston Garden), under horrible conditions etc - I guess I'm confused
 

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Discussion Starter #44
I don't give him no credit. But you seem to act as though Thibs just magically conjured this improvement. The majority of the credit should go the players themselves for their hard work. I am not a big believer that, particularly for Jimmy - whose major improvement occurred during the offseason when he made a point to escape Thibs - that the lion's share of the credit goes to anyone other than Jimmy himself.
You are discounting the times Rose and others praised Thibs for his work with them and discounting the effect that big time minutes Thibs gave to Jimmy as a part of development. So why even debate it any further. You act like Jimmy came into this league as one of the better defenders in the NBA! Don't act like Thibs had NOTHING to do with that.

Can you credibly argue otherwise, particularly for a big, and particularly for a big with repetitive stress injuries like Noah has struggled with? I am not saying anything controversial.
You use this as a veiled excuse as to why Noah's minutes caused his injuries. When there really is no concrete evidence AT ALL that his minutes where the damn reason Noah gets hurt all the damn time. Lebron James probably does 10 times more than what Noah does on a daily basis and is about 6'9 250 and hes not limping around every damn season.

I think I've been pretty clear that the guys Thibs gives huge minutes are going to produce really well during that period of time. The question is at what cost.

I agree that we don't know that Thibs overusing Noah caused his injuries. It's just one factor to look at. The team did that in conjunction with sports medicine personnel and came up with a plan to address that particular factor. Thibs hated the plan and violated it routinely.
The problem here is that the Bulls fully sold themselves on the idea that the minutes was the problem and they threw Thibs under the Bus. I'm not saying Thibs isn't to blame either, Thibs sure as hell could have just said "Ok, I will play these guys less." but he did not and his lack of peoples skills clearly cost him his job.

Some players are just injury prone. No minutes restriction will ever eliminate injuries, nor limit the number of freak injuries. An ACL can go out at any minute in a game, a dude could play 10 minutes or 40 it would not really matter.


Funny. When Taj suffers ankle sprains or McDermott needs a knee scope, you cite those as evidence to favor your argument. But when Jimmy has similar injuries, those are "freak plays."
Huh? They both make my argument that the whole minutes excuse is not based on any actual evidence that it causes injuries! You wan't to make the argument that it affects their play on the court? Well that's a different story, one that again has no evidence that suggests that its a valid argument.

I have no idea whether 32 minutes was the tightest restriction in the NBA, but yes, he was injured yet again. More minutes would have prevented this, then?
You act like I'm asking for these guys to play more minutes! I'm just pointing out that if Rose's minutes limit was 15 there is no guarantee that he would not have re injured himself either.


They sure do. You can't stop them. But the current sports medicine consensus seems to think that you can reduce their frequency by adhering to certain practices. Again, I'm not sure why you're bristling at this, other than you hate GarPax and just want to believe that anything they would implement must be wrongheaded.
I'm not bristling at what medical professionals say about players, but I also understand that it isn't necessarily NBA minutes that are affecting these guys alone. You got these guys playing year long at a very young age with travel teams, AAU, HS, College etc. You can't monitor those minutes, you sure as hell can't predict that limiting their activity in the NBA keeps them from being injured either.

I agree that the minutes thing is only one factor in the decision to dismiss Thibs and, in and of itself, may not have been a fireable offense. Of course, we know there was plenty more.
Absolutely. I'm not saying Thibs did not deserve to be fired, heck its best for both of them to part ways. My main concern and point of the thread was that the Bulls front office should be held EQUALLY responsible if not MORE for the failures of this franchise. Not many people in sport can have this much front office drama and still keep their jobs.

He was there in years past, was he not? I'm not sure why selfishness in playing style would have anything to do with where you train, either.
Even if Thibs constant presence at the advocate center irked some Bulls, its far from a fire-able offense and really should not have been leaked by the Bulls front office (A front office by the way, that was talking about keeping what goes on with the team insulated. Yet they leak this bit out? Classless).

It's been reported that players specifically threatened to avoid the Advocate Center this summer if Thibs were around. If you don't want to believe that, that's fine. But don't act like this isn't Thibs-related. You're just not being honest.
I believe it and I could care less. Players avoid team facilities all the time for various reasons. Rose has avoided them for how many years? You act like this is some grand revelation!

Its time to move on. I think we both agree that it was time for both parties to part way. I think we both agree that Thibs could have done stuff differently. Nobody is innocent in this whole thing. I just wish the Bulls front office had more class, would have handled it better and would be held accountable for what is going wrong with this team.
 

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Its time to move on. I think we both agree that it was time for both parties to part way. I think we both agree that Thibs could have done stuff differently. Nobody is innocent in this whole thing. I just wish the Bulls front office had more class, would have handled it better and would be held accountable for what is going wrong with this team.

After reading your post, I think we're actually more in agreement than it may appear. I agree that it's far from certain that minutes are the cause of the Bulls' injury woes. Or, it could be the cause for some guys and not others. And obviously, you're correct in saying that some players are injury prone, and others are not, regardless of minutes. My big issue is basically that it seems the Bulls do have some injury prone guys, the front office consulted with doctors and implemented a plan to try to reduce injuries, and Thibs basically publicly rejected it. That's not ok.

I also agree the FO's handling of his firing was really poorly done in terms of the statement and some of the content of the news conference.

I also agree that if Hoiberg doesn't work out like Vinnie and Thibs before him, then it'll probably be time for a change in the front office. I tend to be pro-retaining the front office because of their solid performance in the draft. For a team like the Bulls that is likely to have a lot of late picks, it's really important to have the skill that they do in terms of finding quality players that other people are passing on. But, being able to select a coach and work with him is also another requisite skill, and if they can't find a coach that will be both effective and someone they get along with, then that's not tenable.
 

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I am pretty sure Hoiberg is Gar's guy through and through, albeit one that Paxson and the Reinsdorfs have bought into. If let's say 2 more seasons go by and the Bulls are failing to meet expectations and Hoiberg is clearly part of the problem, I am betting Gar Forman gets fired at the very least. Most reports the past few years made it sound like the Thibodeau rift with the "front office" was primarily with Gar Forman, at least until toward the end. So IMO this is Gar getting to pick his coach, and if it fails then Gar is the fall guy. I could easily see Paxson sticking around well past Gar Forman. Which I am perfectly OK with, because I am not really a fan of Gar.
 

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I am pretty sure Hoiberg is Gar's guy through and through, albeit one that Paxson and the Reinsdorfs have bought into. If let's say 2 more seasons go by and the Bulls are failing to meet expectations and Hoiberg is clearly part of the problem, I am betting Gar Forman gets fired at the very least. Most reports the past few years made it sound like the Thibodeau rift with the "front office" was primarily with Gar Forman, at least until toward the end. So IMO this is Gar getting to pick his coach, and if it fails then Gar is the fall guy. I could easily see Paxson sticking around well past Gar Forman. Which I am perfectly OK with, because I am not really a fan of Gar.

Dan Bernstein (so take it with a rather large grain of salt) has been saying on the Score this week that he is informed that GarPax were basically told this is the last shot they're getting at finding a coach, and if this doesn't work out, their jobs will be in peril as well.

I tend to be with you that Pax might survive, but I think Gar has pretty much tied his ship to Hoiberg and their fates are bound together at this point.

Because of the nature of GarPax, I don't really know who is responsible for what decisions in the organization, but I also find Gar unappealing, at least on a personal level. He just seems like a guy that you wouldn't trust.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
Dan Bernstein (so take it with a rather large grain of salt) has been saying on the Score this week that he is informed that GarPax were basically told this is the last shot they're getting at finding a coach, and if this doesn't work out, their jobs will be in peril as well.

I tend to be with you that Pax might survive, but I think Gar has pretty much tied his ship to Hoiberg and their fates are bound together at this point.

Because of the nature of GarPax, I don't really know who is responsible for what decisions in the organization, but I also find Gar unappealing, at least on a personal level. He just seems like a guy that you wouldn't trust.
I believe it because its almost common sense. I would be completely lost for words if Pax is allowed to choose another HC after Hoiberg. Unless Hoiberg has a decade of winning a title or 2, I see 0 chance of the regime going forward as is, if this fails.
 

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I believe it because its almost common sense. I would be completely lost for words if Pax is allowed to choose another HC after Hoiberg. Unless Hoiberg has a decade of winning a title or 2, I see 0 chance of the regime going forward as is, if this fails.
Sorry, I'm confused...Pax...or Gar? Or are you thinking Pax is the one who pushed for Hoiberg? I am pretty certain it was Gar pushing for Hoiberg and there was alot of reported stuff out there in the past that the biggest rift was between Thibs and Gar. Gar is also at the bottom of the front office food chain. He surely would be the first one to go, right? I am just confused why you say "if Pax is allowed to choose another HC" when the past 2 coaches (Thibs & now Hoiberg) haven't even been Paxson's guys.

Paxson's exact role is kind of a mystery to everyone these days, that I don't know how anyone can truly comment on what he did or didn't do himself (other than pulling on VDN's tie, lol). We basically just know that Paxson has alot of input on player acquisitions (scouting, targeting guys in the draft & free agency). But I also am not sure he has the end all say on those decisions, for instance we've heard things like Tony Snell is Gar Forman's guy, etc. Regardless, I am just saying it's hard to say what actually happens to Paxson if things go south, whereas Gar I'm pretty sure would get replaced regardless.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
Sorry, I'm confused...Pax...or Gar? Or are you thinking Pax is the one who pushed for Hoiberg? I am pretty certain it was Gar pushing for Hoiberg and there was alot of reported stuff out there in the past that the biggest rift was between Thibs and Gar. Gar is also at the bottom of the front office food chain. He surely would be the first one to go, right? I am just confused why you say "if Pax is allowed to choose another HC" when the past 2 coaches (Thibs & now Hoiberg) haven't even been Paxson's guys.

Paxson's exact role is kind of a mystery to everyone these days, that I don't know how anyone can truly comment on what he did or didn't do himself (other than pulling on VDN's tie, lol). We basically just know that Paxson has alot of input on player acquisitions (scouting, targeting guys in the draft & free agency). But I also am not sure he has the end all say on those decisions, for instance we've heard things like Tony Snell is Gar Forman's guy, etc. Regardless, I am just saying it's hard to say what actually happens to Paxson if things go south, whereas Gar I'm pretty sure would get replaced regardless.
Hoiberg was both Pax's and Gars guy, dont get confused about that. If Pax wasn't sold on Hoiberg there would be no way in hell that he would have allowed the year long back door dealings with gauging Hoibergs interest in coaching the Bulls.

Also, I just don't see Pax surviving another HC because his reputation around the league is at an all time low. If Hoiberg fails, I have to imagine Michael Reinsdorf isn't as attached to Pax as his father is. Its better to start fresh than to sell another coach and GM that working under Pax isn't as bad as the rest of the league thinks it is.
 

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Hoiberg was both Pax's and Gars guy, dont get confused about that. If Pax wasn't sold on Hoiberg there would be no way in hell that he would have allowed the year long back door dealings with gauging Hoibergs interest in coaching the Bulls.

Also, I just don't see Pax surviving another HC because his reputation around the league is at an all time low. If Hoiberg fails, I have to imagine Michael Reinsdorf isn't as attached to Pax as his father is. Its better to start fresh than to sell another coach and GM that working under Pax isn't as bad as the rest of the league thinks it is.
I have little doubt Paxson is sold on Hoiberg. It's just that Gar is Hoiberg's former assistant coach way back at Iowa State, and Gar was surely instrumental in bringing Hoiberg to Chicago as a player long before Paxson was ever in the Bulls front office. Remember Gar came to the Bulls back when Tim Floyd became coach. Their relationship pre-dates the Paxson-Hoiberg relationship by quite a bit. For that matter, it's reasonable to think Gar and Hoiberg talk frequently and probably have for years. I am sure feelers were sent out in those discussions about his interesting in coaching the Bulls someday. I guess I just find it hard to believe Paxson specifically was the one driving that whole thing.
 

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The front office thought it had to fire Thibodeau and I'm fine with that.

Reinsdorf decided that he had to share his feelings about the Thibodeau firing with the fan base. IMO, this was a mistake. GarPax followed Reinsdorf's lead in their press conference. This compounded the mistake.

Regardless of how poorly the Bulls handled the Thibodeau firing, Hoiberg is an excellent candidate for a NBA head coaching position:

- Hoiberg played 10 years in the league. Of the last 25 NBA championships, 23 were won by a team coached by a former NBA player or a team coached by someone with the last name Popovich.

- Hoiberg spent 4 years in an NBA front office.

- Hoiberg then took over a losing (under .500 for 4 straight seasons) Iowa State team where the team made an immediate turnaround, has made the NCAA tourney 4 straight seasons and won 2 Big-12 Conference Championships. Those 2 Big-12 Championships are twice as many as the school had won before Hoiberg became the head coach.

For a 42 year old, that's pretty damned good.
 

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http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/7/71/675993/bulls-chance-draft-draymond-green-2012

According to Grantland.com, former Bulls assistant coach Ron Adams was in favor of drafting Green, who eventually went to the Golden State Warriors with the 35th overall pick.

Adams said him and Thibodeau were wanting to draft Green because of his unique skill set and the hustle he brought to the floor, but they couldn’t convince management.

“As a coaching staff, we were very disappointed we didn’t get him,” Adams says. “He is definitely a Chicago kind of guy…He has internalized the parts of the game that are the winning parts: the hustle, the grit, the defense, making the right play at the right time. I love that guy. I’m glad he’s on our team.”
since matt Lloyd left it seems we are not getting much in the draft . also the scuttlebutt was adams was fired because he wouldnt keep his mouth shut on things they disagreed on ....at the same time if you are right , should you have to?
 

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Discussion Starter #56
This NBA finals just makes me lose some hope about the type of team the Bulls wan't to build going forward.

Lebron James vs Thibs Bulls

26 ppg 39% shooting 10% 3pt shooting 5 to's 6 fta's per game

(3 games so far)Lebron James vs Steve Kerr's up tempo Offense (What the Bulls want to play)

41 ppg 40% fg 35% 3s 3 tos and 13 FTA's per game

Golden State being held to damn near 20 points below their season scoring average with a team with much better talent than the Bulls.
 

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This NBA finals just makes me lose some hope about the type of team the Bulls wan't to build going forward.

Lebron James vs Thibs Bulls

26 ppg 39% shooting 10% 3pt shooting 5 to's 6 fta's per game

(3 games so far)Lebron James vs Steve Kerr's up tempo Offense (What the Bulls want to play)

41 ppg 40% fg 35% 3s 3 tos and 13 FTA's per game

Golden State being held to damn near 20 points below their season scoring average with a team with much better talent than the Bulls.
I'm not sure it's Golden State's style that is the problem, rather lack of experience. They are just a young team that hasn't been this deep in the playoffs and IMO they appear shaken. Reminds me alot of when the Thunder were in the Finals and they got ran over by a more experienced Heat team, even though the Thunder were pretty close talent wise. Steph Curry is just crapping the bed, save for a 2nd half outburst last night which was too little too late. But really it's their whole team crapping the bed. Certainly credit the Cavs for turning on the defensive switch in the playoffs (their D wasn't nearly this good in the regular season, and it's caught people off guard), but even so we are not seeing anything close to Golden State basketball. In the regular season and even most of the playoffs they exhibited tremendous ball movement and creation of quality shots. Now their ball movement has been subpar and they are making panicked plays resulting in bad shots, and even missing when they are open.

Cleveland lacks this experience as a whole but they know their best player has been here before and are just going out and playing ball. It's making a huge difference. On a side note, I find it really sad that a team like this broken down Cleveland squad is going to win an NBA championship. The media is eating it up as a big Lebron accomplishment and it probably is on some level, but IMO it speaks to just how watered down the NBA is these days and in particular the Eastern Conference. MJ always had to face a premier foe like the Pistons, Knicks, and Pacers before even reaching the Finals, which made for a really great series. Just feels too easy when there isn't another powerhouse sitting in the same conference, to the point where Lebron can literally lose his 2nd and 3rd options and still win in convincing fashion. The Hawks earning the #1 seed sort of speaks to this problem, and my view on this was reinforced by seeing the Bulls and Hawks just roll over and die, while superior teams would at least go out there and play balls to the wall, not going down easy. I guess it's just the overall lack of resistance by so many teams that I find disheartening. Maybe that's just the generation we live in these days....players want things to be easy and if they aren't, just give up and do something else (in this case, rake in millions of dollars and go on your off-season vacation).
 

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Discussion Starter #58
I'm not sure it's Golden State's style that is the problem, rather lack of experience.
I don't buy this excuse really. The Bulls have been one of the most experienced teams for the past couple of years and they have been dispatched and havent gone as far as the Warriors have in a MUCH tougher conference.

But really it's their whole team crapping the bed. Certainly credit the Cavs for turning on the defensive switch in the playoffs (their D wasn't nearly this good in the regular season, and it's caught people off guard), but even so we are not seeing anything close to Golden State basketball. In the regular season and even most of the playoffs they exhibited tremendous ball movement and creation of quality shots. Now their ball movement has been subpar and they are making panicked plays resulting in bad shots, and even missing when they are open.
One big issue I see is that they are stubborn in not trying to play differently. I fully understand why they want to run up the court and jack up 3's before the Cavs can set up their defense, but its not currently working and they should have tried more Pick and Roll with Lee as of game 2. Green has been playing pretty subpar basketball.

I fully agree with GS crapping the bed. They are WAY TOO TALENTED to lose to this team. No matter what Lebron does, the Warriors are the more talented team and they should be able to win the series. While Lebron is dominating the series, there is no doubt in my mind that Curry's poor performance has just as much if not more negative impact on the Warriors than Lebron.

Heck, Jordan put up 63 5 6 3 and 2 vs the Celtics and still could not beat a much more talented team. GS has to wake up and play like they are the more talented team.
 

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This NBA finals just makes me lose some hope about the type of team the Bulls wan't to build going forward.

Lebron James vs Thibs Bulls

26 ppg 39% shooting 10% 3pt shooting 5 to's 6 fta's per game

(3 games so far)Lebron James vs Steve Kerr's up tempo Offense (What the Bulls want to play)

41 ppg 40% fg 35% 3s 3 tos and 13 FTA's per game

Golden State being held to damn near 20 points below their season scoring average with a team with much better talent than the Bulls.

I mean, LBJ is the best player since Jordan, so he's going to get his. I don't think it's the GS style so much that is leading to his production (keep in mind he is volume scoring, not being efficient). Rather, it's the fact that all of Cleveland's other scoring options are injured. He wouldn't be doing this on their full squad.

Also, keep in mind we couldn't beat LBJ with Thibs, so it's not like this outcome is different.

The interesting question is whether GS would actually be better matched against the run-and-gun Cavs, rather than the defensive juggernaut they've been forced to become with these roster adjustments.
 
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