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I was watching SportsCenter this morning before leaving for work and I caught the preview of a story they were doing based off a comment made by former Georgetown head coach John Thompson regarding centers. With Ewing retiring yesterday, I believe Thompson said that the 7-foot center would no longer be around in the NBA. (Something like that. I wish I had caught the piece because it seemed very interesting. So if anyone saw it, could you recap it?)

That got me thinking about the big men. Ewing was a prototypical center. 7 footer, long arms, not too terribly athletic but he could run, had a touch of range but worked the blocks to his benefit. He rebounded like a mad man. He could block shots. Basically, he was a master of the paint. Plain and simple.

Now how many of those centers actually exist anymore? Bear with me here but I'd like to break down each team's starting center...

Atlanta
Theo Ratliff 6-10 He is a shot blocker and he’s one of the best at the position when he is healthy. But at 6-10, he doesn’t dominate the boards, as so many people like to think he does. He has a career average of 5.7 rebounds per game. Surprised? Thought so. In comparison to his 2.5 blocks per game career average, Ratliff is still light years away from being the true center that the NBA is used to seeing. His teammate and back up Nazr Mohammed is probably more of a “true center” than Ratliff.

Boston
Tony Battie 6-11 Are you serious? Battie is a starting NBA center? Really? Wow, times are a changin’! Don’t get me wrong, Battie is a decent player and is worthy of playing time in this league but is he a center or a power forward? Okay, let’s put it this way, if he were in the Western Division, would he be a starting center? Probably not.

Chicago
Eddy Curry 6-9,10, 11, whatever he is nowadays. These kids grow up way too fast. ;) This is certainly not the same type of center his head coach Bill Cartwright was. Coach was a paint only center. Curry is, well still under consideration. He has all of the tools that prototypical centers have, with size being his biggest asset. He has the chance to become one of the best centers in the NBA, only time will tell.

Cleveland
Zydrunas Illgauskas At 7-3, he fits the mold of the 7 foot center of standing in the paint. He’s effective for the most part and perhaps an underrated player in the league. Although his production has decreased rather increased since he has come into the league. His backup Chris Mihm is looking better and also fits the 7 footer label but hasn’t reached his full potential.

Dallas
Raef Lafrentz 6-10 He’s not a center, he’s a power forward with 3 point range. Shawn Bradley is a center.
Denver
Marcus Camby 6-10 See New York. And I pray to God that they do not play Nene Hiliario as a center. He’s power forward Kiki. Just because he’s got a 7-3 wingspan, that doesn’t mean he’s supposed to be locked inside the paint.

Detroit
Ben Wallace 6-9 Now I know Big Ben isn’t a regular center but besides Rebracca, Wallace is the closest thing to a center the Pistons have. He’s a monster, as we all know and appreciate, but again, not a true center.

Golden State
Who is it? Who plays where? Jamison is a PF. Where is Fortson playing? Center at 6-8? Not likely. How many minutes will Dampier and Foyle get? And all are under 7 feet.

Houston
Yao Ming 7-5 Let me be the first to say, that I may have been VERY wrong about Ming. He may just be a good center who will be an All Star. Gulp, that was hard to do. I don’t admit I’m wrong very often. But Ming brings a very effective 7 footer (and then some) to the floor. He’s got Hakeem part II written all over him.

Indiana
Brad Miller 7-0 Miller is a true center. Finally. He’s getting better and should turn into a very formidable center in the league with Jermaine O’Neal as his frontcourt teammate. If he could block some more shots, we could actually be looking at a dark horse candidate for an All Star spot.

LA Clippers
Michael Olowokandi 7-0 He’s becoming worthy of his draft position…slowly. But he’s still far off. He’ll be a starting center until he retires because of the skill level that he possess but still won’t dominate like Ewing did.

LA Lakers
Shaq 7-2 The most dominating center of all time. No one is close to him.

Memphis
Lorenzen Wright & Co. See Orlando. Lo is a good player but he’s not a center. Gasol may be the closest thing to a center on the roster but he’s too damn athletic to keep him in one place. Heck, even Drew Gooden may be playing in the middle at some point this year. It’s a log jam in Memphis.

Miami
Alonzo Mourning 6-10 I know he isn’t the starting C anymore due to his kidneys but we’ll use him in this because, well, Miami really doesn’t have a replacement for him. Mourning brought the attitude and toughness that centers should have. He is a good example of what small centers should be.

Milwaukee
Ervin Johnson 6-11 Five to six years ago, Johnson was a big time player. He was one of the leagues best rebounding, shot blocking centers around. Now he’s on the decline. The Bucks went after size in the draft (6-10 Dan Gadzuric, an athletic center and 6-11 Jamal Sampson, a project.)

Minnesota
Radoslav Nesterovic 7-0 See Cleveland. With Marc Jackson and Loren Woods on the bench, the Wolves have size to compliment KG’s ability for at least one round of the playoffs.

New Jersey
Dikembe Mutombo 7-2 Outside of Shaq, there isn’t a true center around that makes a difference like Deke does. Sad but true. There aren’t many centers around like Mutombo anymore. They are there for defense and defense only. There is no offense to his game but his rebounding and shot blocking ability help the team win games.

New Orleans
Elden Cambell 7-0 He is a great model of consistency at the center spot. He does the dirty work and never greats the credit he fully deserves. Campbell is a good mentor to a similar player in Jamal Magloire, a 6-11 center.

New York
No one See, this is what happens to teams that don’t have a true center. After Ewing left or started to decline rather, they failed. Camby isn’t a center, Kurt Thomas isn’t either. They say it only gets worse before it gets better right? Well it must be time to get better than.

Orlando
A revolving door of six players all 6-10, 6-11 See New York.

Phoenix
Jake Tsakalidis 7-2 He could become like Kandi or Big Mac, which one is up to him. I like his chances of having a solid NBA career.

Philadelphia
Todd MacCulloh 7-0 Above the 6-11 mark. Check. Been on winning teams. Check. Stands in the paint with arms held high. Check. That’s the extent of the other T-Mac. And someone was willing to pay this man $40 million because of his ability to do all of the above. Amazing. I’ll give Mac credit, he puts the ball through the cylinder fairly well other than that, he’s a 7 footer that fills the middle. Not many of those around that do that fairly well.

Portland
Arvydas Sabonis 7-1 Had he played his entire career in the NBA, we would have to put him on the list of the best centers of all time. He is an amazing talent. There are very few centers who saw the floor and passed like Sabonis.

Sacramento
Vlade Divac 7-1 Divac is a great center, even still. But is he a “franchise center” like Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem? I don’t know. Look at how many teams have moved him. I’d take him.

San Antonio
David Robinson 7-1 Kids enjoy one of the greatest 7 footers for one more year. He is the definition of a center that maximizes the team’s overall flow. He’s one of the best of all time. He’s one of the last true centers we’ll see in a while.

Seattle
Calvin Booth 6-11 How in the world did he get big money? How? He’s terrible. Always has been.

Toronto
Hakeem Olajuwon 7-0 One of the greatest of all time. Why? He mixed in the creativity and athleticism that we are now beginning to see in the big men in the NBA. He is a living legend that should hang ‘em up like Ewing. Who is the replacement for him? I’m a bit out of the Raptor loop?

Utah
Greg Ostertag 7-0 Never has, never will be a good center. He’s a poor man’s Todd MacCoulluh at his very best. The former Stanford stars behind him having promising futures. I like Collins a little more because of his toughness, but guess what, he’s 6-11. Figures. Borchardt has the skills but with bones made out of crystal, I doubt he’ll be around long enough to really prove his worth.

Washington
Jahidi White 6-9 He’s friggin’ huge. He’s gone to Center University (G-town). But that’s it. He’s not a true center that will give a good showing for 30 minutes a night. But I think the more intriguing center on the team is Brendan Haywood, a true 7 footer. With Ewing as a new coach for the Wizards, Haywood might just turn out to be one of the better and more serviceable centers in the NBA. I can’t believe I just said that but it’s true. Haywood has the type of game and physical tools that would allow him to become a guy who gets 15 points, 8 rebounds and 2 blocks a night.

There are only 15 starting centers in the league that stand over 7 feet tall. Just barely over half of the teams. And with guys like Robinson and Olajuwon on the cusp of retirement, we’ll be looking at 13. The upcoming prospects only have one true 7 footer in America that looks like he may turn out to be at least decent (Chris Marcus) but the talent pool is changing.

Today’s seven footers are different. They are athletic, they can shoot the three, the can handle the ball. Guys like Dirk, Gasol, Skita, KG (for those that think he’s a seven footer), etc. are taking over the game. We won’t be seeing true centers anymore. Could we be seeing “rebounders” like Ben Wallace, shot blockers like Theo Ratliff and just freakishly tall players like Shawn Bradley in the middle now? So again, will the center position be gone in a matter of years? Food and facts for thought.
 

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Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
Do you think this has anything to do with how dominant Shaq is?

I believe so
I don't, Shaq would dominate in any era.

Even Ewing in his prime wouldn't have a prayer against today's Shaq. Hell when Shaq was younger he was still out-playing him and held even ground to Robinson and Olajuwon.

7 foot centers are becoming more and more specialized. Either they are jump-shooters or shot-blockers mainly and teams have to get low-post scoring out of other positions. How many of those centers are also their teams best low-post scorer? Probably only Divac, Cambell, Ilgauskas and Shaq (3 former/current Lakers?).

What about the Perkins kid. Is he another hybrid wannabe or a true big man?

By the way Robinson is Detriot's real center. He has to guard all the top low-post players. Wallace only checks Duncan and Shaq when Cliffy is on the bench. Big ben is overrated.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Jemel Irief</b>!


I don't, Shaq would dominate in any era.

Even Ewing in his prime wouldn't have a prayer against today's Shaq. Hell when Shaq was younger he was still out-playing him and held even ground to Robinson and Olajuwon.
Its easy to say Ewing wouldnt have a prayer against Shaq Now because of course well never know. All I do know is Shaq was not the most dominant player in the league when he played amounst the likes of Hakeem, Zo, D. Rob, Ewing, in their primes.

He shines in the absent of another great center.
 

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Yes it is easy to say. Like I said Shaq out-played Ewing when Ewing was in his prime and Shaq didn't hit his yet. He's quicker than Ewing and he's bigger than Ewing. Ewing's offensive game, unlike Robinsons or Olajuwons, was very limited. He had a menacing dunk and a nice face-up jumper that he couldn't get off himself and needed a pass to shoot it.
 

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I think the decline at the center position is more attributable to the number of tall guys who want to play PF. Look around the league and you'll find lots of 6-10, 6-11 and 7-0 forwards, many of whom would have been used as centers in past years. I don't think big man quality has gone down, instead, I think that tall guys are more skilled than ever and don't fit the classic center mold.

PF is a very strong position in the league right now, but look at who's near the top. 6-10 Chris Webber. 7-0 Dirk. 6-9 Karl Malone. 7-0 Tim Duncan. 7-0 Pau Gasol. 6-11 Jermaine O'Neal. All of those guys are quality players who are officially PFs, but would likely have been centers 15-20 years ago.

Then think about a guy like Garnett, who is reportedly 7-1, and playing SF.

I think the decline at center is a labelling issue. Karl Malone, for example, is called a PF, but he's Utah's center in function. Ditto Duncan, O'Neal and others. What I see is guys running from the center label because a) they want to dribble the ball and shoot from outside and don't want to be confined by the center position, and b) they don't want the pressure of being the franchise center.

PF and C can be fairly similar positions. I don't have the time right now, but it'd be an interesting to analyze the actual roles certain PFs play and compare that to the roles of traditional centers. I suspect that the "center" position would look better with properly classified players.
 

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Denver
Marcus Camby 6-10 See New York. And I pray to God that they do not play Nene Hiliario as a center. He’s power forward Kiki. Just because he’s got a 7-3 wingspan, that doesn’t mean he’s supposed to be locked inside the paint.
I agree that Nene Hilario is not a real center. Althoght he used to play in this position in Vasco da Gama (his team in Brazil). He can use his strong D to stop other Centers and block shots. Of course in the power forward position he has a lot more to develop. His body doesn't fit well in the Center spot.

Houston
Yao Ming 7-5 Let me be the first to say, that I may have been VERY wrong about Ming. He may just be a good center who will be an All Star. Gulp, that was hard to do. I don’t admit I’m wrong very often. But Ming brings a very effective 7 footer (and then some) to the floor. He’s got Hakeem part II written all over him.
Yao Ming may just be a good and very effective player, but he will not be a center as Hakeen was. He has a diferent type of game. He can shoot well but doesn't have post moves. He needs to develop to be true center.

I agree with you in almost everything. And I think the real good centers are starting to desapear...Let's hope that Michael Olowokandi, Eddy Curry, Yao Ming, Brad Miller and others prove me wrong!!!
 

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Ewing's offensive game limited?!

Ewing was probably the best jump shooting center ever (not counting bums who do nothing else). You absolutely could not leave him open anywhere a foot or two inside the 3 point line. I find this strange considering that he was one of the most dominating defensive centers in college history, and it was his offensive game that was lacking.
-bmckay
 

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I think that poition has changed due to a Jordan effect in the league ,most of the players that are big and versatile idolized Jordan growing up he was the poster guy for everything great about the NBA, he was the man, so all theses kids no matter what height didn't appreciate what the likes of Ewing ,Hakeem and others did, Perimeter played was hyped way more because of Jordan, KG tall player with perimeter skill, Rashhed Wallace, Webber,I also think a factor is that the European influx with skillful big guys have changed match-ups if you're not as quick a foot the Euro's will eat you alive so teams look for athletic big guys who have quick feet that can guard the big Perimeter Euroean players, I think it's all good though today's game has opened up the floor and allows guys the ability, handle the ball and take it the length of the court much more exciting brand of ball. Growing up I'm sure they went and imitated Jordans side lean dunk,his reverse layups,and double pump hangtime shots.

As far as Shaq I agree that Shaq in his early days was still a great player he just wasn't the imposssible match-up that he is now, he would give D Rob 35 and D Rob would give him 32 it was like that against Ewing ,Dream ,Alonzo it wasn't the 35 and 8 match-up against centers now then the center fouls out thing, but then again Shaq has gotten so much better as a player now much more skilled than he was earlier and now a much better defender put Robinson,Ewing,Dream,Mourning, in their Prime aganst Shaq Now and he may dominate them more thouroughly because lets face it he's smarter and more experienced and those guys maybe not Mourning but the other guys used Veteran tricks on him back then that wouldn't work now, and I think some big players go to the pf because of Shaq they don't want to get pounded by the bigger guys in the center position.
 

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shaq would NOT have dominated as much as he does today if he played in the 80's /90's, the reason he is SOOOO dominant these days is because he plays scrubs who cant get the calls, in the early 90's, shaq didnt get the special treatment by the refs against hakeem olojuwan, robinson etc.. because they were stars as well... in fact, the other star centers got the calls go their way instead of shaq getting all the luck

back then,.... shaq did not get the liscence to bowl over his opponents like he does today, and thats the truth, shaq did not get more skillful since then he just got the calls that he didnt get when he played the "bigger stars" back then

think about it, NBA star get star treatment, malone, jordan, etc... they all do, and thats a fact, early in shaq's career, there were many centers who were "bigger stars" then he was at the time,d.robinson, the dream, ewing, matumbo etc... which is why he had to play then honest, and couldnt bully them around on the court, but without any superstar centers outside of shaq, shaq gets the star treatment every night by the refs

matumbo is the only "star center" in the league that "holds his own against shaq" because when they play each other, the refs put the wistles in their pockets, if matumbo was just a 5 year veteran, he would not last one minute on the floor with shaq without getting his 6th foul

if all the superstar SG's in the league retired today besides kobe, and in say 5 years it was the same, then kobe would be allowed to "dominate" his opponents, because kobe would be the only superstar SG in the league, and thus he would be getting superstar treatment EVERY NIGHT

think about it, what is the real difference between shaq'a game today then how it was in 94'? in 94' he was more finnese then he is today, nowadays he is "allowed" to bully his way 24/7 which he wasnt allowed to do back then, back in 94', were there people complaining that shaq bullies his way? thats because he wasnt allowed to
 

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Most of the centers pre 90's were either tall or big. Kareem, Parish, Walton, Joe Barry Carroll were all twigs. Moses Malone was only 6'9 and Wes Unseld 6'8". Bill Laimberr was just Chris Dudley with a deadly jump shot.

The game has evolved an athletic freak like Shaq would of been even deadlier in the 80's. If you told a fan of 80's basketball that there were guys the size of Kareem doing stuff that Larry and Magic could do (like Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki) they would of repeated a line from Chris Tucker in Friday ("Get the ..... out of here!").

By the way I disagree, in 94 Shaq probably got more dunks then he did today. He relied a lot more on raw athleticism that he has lost.
 

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Re: Ewing's offensive game limited?!

Originally posted by <b>bmckay</b>!
Ewing was probably the best jump shooting center ever (not counting bums who do nothing else). You absolutely could not leave him open anywhere a foot or two inside the 3 point line. I find this strange considering that he was one of the most dominating defensive centers in college history, and it was his offensive game that was lacking.
-bmckay
I agree but he could only get that jump shot off from a pass. He couldn't create it himself. Robinson could face-up and burn any center off the dribble that didn't respect his jumper. Hakeem would create his own fade-away by using pivots and pump fakes.
 

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WizardsKev comes through with a superb analysis.

Tall, more thinly built players are taught now to dribble and shoot from the outside, and the great ones become NBA power forwards for the most part. Slower footed ones , if they have muscle and determination, can become centers, if they are even a bit shorter.

Tim Duncan and Karl Malone, they are just so skilled they do whatever they have to in complimenting their teams needs at the time.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Jemel Irief</b>!
Most of the centers pre 90's were either tall or big. Kareem, Parish, Walton, Joe Barry Carroll were all twigs. Moses Malone was only 6'9 and Wes Unseld 6'8". Bill Laimberr was just Chris Dudley with a deadly jump shot.

The game has evolved an athletic freak like Shaq would of been even deadlier in the 80's. If you told a fan of 80's basketball that there were guys the size of Kareem doing stuff that Larry and Magic could do (like Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki) they would of repeated a line from Chris Tucker in Friday ("Get the ..... out of here!").

By the way I disagree, in 94 Shaq probably got more dunks then he did today. He relied a lot more on raw athleticism that he has lost.
Even Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles can see that neither KG or Dirk can come close to what Magic and Bird could do. You must be a referee (i.e., blind)
 

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Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
shaq would NOT have dominated as much as he does today if he played in the 80's /90's, the reason he is SOOOO dominant these days is because he plays scrubs who cant get the calls, in the early 90's, shaq didnt get the special treatment by the refs against hakeem olojuwan, robinson etc.. because they were stars as well... in fact, the other star centers got the calls go their way instead of shaq getting all the luck

back then,.... shaq did not get the liscence to bowl over his opponents like he does today, and thats the truth, shaq did not get more skillful since then he just got the calls that he didnt get when he played the "bigger stars" back then

think about it, NBA star get star treatment, malone, jordan, etc... they all do, and thats a fact, early in shaq's career, there were many centers who were "bigger stars" then he was at the time,d.robinson, the dream, ewing, matumbo etc... which is why he had to play then honest, and couldnt bully them around on the court, but without any superstar centers outside of shaq, shaq gets the star treatment every night by the refs

matumbo is the only "star center" in the league that "holds his own against shaq" because when they play each other, the refs put the wistles in their pockets, if matumbo was just a 5 year veteran, he would not last one minute on the floor with shaq without getting his 6th foul

if all the superstar SG's in the league retired today besides kobe, and in say 5 years it was the same, then kobe would be allowed to "dominate" his opponents, because kobe would be the only superstar SG in the league, and thus he would be getting superstar treatment EVERY NIGHT

think about it, what is the real difference between shaq'a game today then how it was in 94'? in 94' he was more finnese then he is today, nowadays he is "allowed" to bully his way 24/7 which he wasnt allowed to do back then, back in 94', were there people complaining that shaq bullies his way? thats because he wasnt allowed to
You're right he would not have dominated 20 years ago. He would have had to run the court every time and play defense against a high scoring center.

Also, I remember several playoff series where the Magic were swept and Shaq fouled out multiple games against the likes of Rik Schmidts.

Shaq is one of the all-time greats, but his current competition is lacking.
 

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Most of the centers pre 90's were either tall or big. Kareem, Parish, Walton, Joe Barry Carroll were all twigs. Moses Malone was only 6'9 and Wes Unseld 6'8". Bill Laimberr was just Chris Dudley with a deadly jump shot.

The game has evolved an athletic freak like Shaq would of been even deadlier in the 80's. If you told a fan of 80's basketball that there were guys the size of Kareem doing stuff that Larry and Magic could do (like Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki) they would of repeated a line from Chris Tucker in Friday ("Get the ..... out of here!").

By the way I disagree, in 94 Shaq probably got more dunks then he did today. He relied a lot more on raw athleticism that he has lost

I agree with a lot of this my only caveat would be that the KG's and Nowitzki's aren't as court aware as the older players who probably played more ball through college and I believe recieved better coaching , the physical training with the weights made a huge difference in the developement of players nowadays Shaq would get his numbers I don't care when he'd play I don't think he'd be more deadly I'd say as deadly the guys then would come at him more Moses,Kareem, Sikma, Bob Lanier, Gilmore, Sampson, Parish, Laimbeer,Cartwright, Edwards,Mahorn, These guys would be far more physical with him and some of them offensively he'd have trouble with look if Divac when he agressively attacks Shaq on offense draws fouls and makes it harder on Shaq so if he can do that some of those older guys would to an even higher degree.
 

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I've always been under the impression that if Duncan had been drafted by any team other than the Spurs (and maybe one or two others with a good center) he would have been playing the 5 for his whole career so far. What do people think, after this season when Robinson retires, is Duncan going to shift to his more natural position, or are the Spurs going to try to find another center to start along side him?
 

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Even Ewing in his prime wouldn't have a prayer against today's Shaq. Hell when Shaq was younger he was still out-playing him and held even ground to Robinson and Olajuwon.
Ewing would not have been able to outplay shaq, but he would have had more than a prayer against him- much more. Ewing was, arguably, the best shooting center of all time. Also, I really doubt that Shaq would have "dominated" in any era. He would have been a dominant player, but had he faced better centers he would not have had the impact he does today. I'm not talking about Ewing or even Robinson so much as I'm talking about Hakeem. Remember when he destroyed Robinson in the playoffs? Hakeem is guy who often gets overlooked in the best center ever discussions- IMO he would have given Shaq a bigger challenge than anyone else.
 

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This epitomizes the sad state of the center position in the NBA today. Both of these players were very high draft picks. One was the #1 pick late 90's and one was #3 pick in the mid 80's. On some board I called player #1 a bust and the overwhelming opinion was that he is developing and isn't a bust. He has been mentioned as one of the top young centers by many on this board. Player #3 got some mentions for the biggest bust of alltime. Most everyone thinks he was at least a disappointment for a #3 pick. Player #1 is just about at Player #2 rookie stats. You can see that Player #2 stats were much better by his 4th year.
Player #1 (4th year)
PPG 11.1
RPG 8.9
APG 1.1
SPG .69
BPG 1.81
FG% .433
FT% .622
3P% .000
MPG 32.1

Player #2 (Rookie year)
PPG 11.1
RPG 7.6
APG 1.0
SPG 0.81
BPG 2.61
FG% .490
FT% .746
MPG 26.4

Player #2 (4th year)
PPG 16.4
RPG 8.8
APG 2.0
SPG 0.72
BPG 2.80
FG% 0.541
FT% .744
MPG 32.7

PS If you can't guess who the players are and want to know post a reply in this thread and tomorrow I will put in the names.
 
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