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duke of new york, a#1
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A lot of people on this board have casually mentioned how KO's team system hasn't worked in the teams favour so far. Several posters think that his emphasis on defence is too one-sided, and that our team doesn't have the personnel to maintain the intense defensive pressure KO demands.

DEFENCE:

Here is the hard proof that KO's defence has had a big impact on our team, and has made us one of the best defensive units in the league.

Points Allowed: 87.4 (5th)
Opponent's Field Goal Percenage: 42.7% (6th)
Opponent's Three-Point Field Goal Percentage: 30.7% (2nd)
Opponent's Assists: 18.524 (2nd)
Opponent's Turnovers: 14.381 (10th)
Fouls: 20.643 (9th)

Some people might say that the reason other teams score so low against us is that we burn so many 24-second violations when we are on O. But that excuse doesn't explain how teams shoot so poorly against us.

So for the people who think that our defensive setup is wrong for this team, think about how well it has worked so far. We have slipped during the last few games (missing Mike Curry and Vince Carter for most of the time), but we are still one of the better defensive squads in the league.

There is still room for improvement, however. Our team doesn't fair as well when it comes to blocked shots or defensive rebounds. While our perimeter defence seems to be working well, a big body in the defensive paint should still be on Glen's wish list for the weeks leading-up to the trade deadline.

OFFENCE:

I don't know how many times I've heard people say "KO can't run an NBA offence."

One theory is that KO demands a strict, responsible system on the defensive end, but that sort of strategy doesn't work on the other side of the court. Some would like to see Alvin and Jalen calling the plays and creating for the team, rather than have Kevin barking orders from the sidelines.

Here is where our team stands, statistically:

Points Scored: 84.6 (29th)
Field Goal Percentage: 41.9% (25th)
Three-Point Field Goal Percentage: 35.4% (8th)
Assists: 19.83 (23rd)
Turnovers: 14.667 (11th)
Fouls Drawn: 20.857 (18th)

Though KO doesn't think our offence has a problem, you can see from these numbers that the Raptors are in the basement when it comes to making the most of our possessions.

We are dead last in scoring and our poor shooting percentage is to blame for that. When a scoring percentage is this low, the usual suspects are:

- not enough ball movement (and our low assist numbers attest to that);
- not enough movement without the ball (players aren't getting open enough in the mid-range and under the basket; our open players are normally behind the arc);
- too many turnovers (not the case, we are a decent team when it comes to protecting the ball, nearly a top-10 team in this regard);
- not enough penetration (we are 18th in drawing fouls, so we aren't doing enough to get to the line);
- too few high-percentage points in the paint (check!);
- botching and misreading plays (hard to determine, since we don't know which play is being run until after it is done, and several resets can happen on one possession);
- etcetera.

We have lost winnable games due to our offence, and there is lots of room for improvement in this area.

So, what can we do to improve the offence? (and don't say Trade Vince or Fire Kevin O'Neill, 'cause that's not constructive!)
 

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When the Raptors hired Kevin I was never worried about our defence, because obviously he is a defencive specialist. What I was worried about was our offence. When Kevin was in Detroit, he was only a defencive coach, and really had no say in the offence. So when he got the job, I got the feeling that we only got a defencive coach, with no idea on what to do on offence.

I guess I was right, because the Raptors are last in the league in points per game.
 

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Fear The Red
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well the offense is the players fault in terms of makeing the shots the question is, is KO giving em the right plays?
 

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duke of new york, a#1
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
well the offense is the players fault in terms of makeing the shots the question is, is KO giving em the right plays?
Dunno. I guess he isn't, considering. But it's just as hard to tell if the players are running KO's plays at all, or if they are running them the way he wants them to. It's not easy to find a solution to our current woes, but I'm sure there are some things we can address collectively.
 

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Too much 1/2 court

It seems to me our offence is all 1/2 court.

Especially since the trade, we don't get enough solid defensive boards, so we don't have many fast break chances. We get a few fb's off steals, but with Vince playing back, MoP, Rose, Alvin & Palacio have to finish them and too often the first three get trapped and Palacio can't finish. I believe we have to move Vince back to the 2. Let Jalen play the 3 - he's got good height and some good moves down low on offense that Vince doesn't. Alvin and Palacio'll have to run the point as best they can.

It comes back to the old argument - we need a solid big man to control the boards at both ends and a true point guard who can run the offense and drive to the basket. But that horse has been flogged to death.

I think this is KO's weakness as an offensive coach - he loves his play book and doesn't want a run and gun offense. I'd like to see more of it, as long as the guys stay under control.

The other thing is the post offense - as I said on another thread, this is another way to get high percentage shots - post somebody up and get the perimeter guys cutting and the bigs setting picks to protect them. We don't do that - and when someone posts up, its like its not in the playbook, so he's left to go one on one with his defender. This is just basic basketball (imho).

Play Arch and Baxter more at the 5 to post up and set picks and get some offensive boards. Play Bosh more at the 4 to let him get some shots against less physical opponents. Yell can still get plenty of minutes when Bosh is at the 5 or sitting or at the 3 when Vince sits down.

Sorry if I'm rambliing, but ...
:twocents:
 

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I think that the main problems with our offense is that:

1) we dont have a consistent inside presence to post up on and
2) we dont get to the line often enough

Now saying this, I think the way to create more scoring on offense is to, during the first and third quarters, ESTABLISH AN INSIDE GAME. The first five possessions of every game should be a shot taken inside the key unless the shot from outside is an open look. Establishing an inside game, either through a post or penetration, will help the team get into a comfortable groove along with possibly getting the refs looking for fouls and allowing us to shoot more free throws. The Raps are ranked last in the league in free throws attempted. If they want to increase their offensive output, they gotta get inside the paint and create calls for themselves.

Now saying this, who can we look to? Well, the obvious answer is Vince. Vince, when he decides to get inside, can take anyone in the post and get the foul and go to the line. I think thats the most frustrating part of his game because all Raptor fans see that he can dominate a game from the post but instead in many games we see him fall in love with the fade way, 19 foot jumper. Another player that we can obviosly go to is Jalen Rose. Jalen creates a lot of problems for defenders and can both score inside as well as find the OPEN players like Mo Pete camping outside the three point line. If the Raps are to turn around their offense, it has to be (or more often than anyone else), Jalen Rose or Vince (maybe Donyell too).

So, in conclusion, we need to get to the line more. Even if we make 5 more attempts to the line, thats potentially a 5 point increase in offense and that would place us in the middle of the pack of scoring.

As well, with concerns to KO's ability to coach offense, I feel he does an alright job especially when you look at the plays he comes up with at the end of games. He has proven to come up with some great plays to get open looks for players, for example, Chris Bosh against Miami or Donyell Marshall against San Antonio (i believe), where they both had open shots from three point land. I feel that hes a pretty decent offensive coach, maybe above average. We just need to execute and get to the line.
 

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duke of new york, a#1
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: Too much 1/2 court

Originally posted by <b>TDrake</b>!
Sorry if I'm rambliing, but ...
:twocents:
Nope, excellent points.

You can't always rely on set plays to make baskets. All it takes is for one person to hit their mark too soon, or too late, or not at all, and then it is up to the point guard to hit the reset button. I think part of our problem lies there, in that we don't have a point guard who can think three or four passes ahead on the fly. That's an easy thing for us to say, that we need a real point guard (we currently have none, since even Milt is more of a combo guard in a point guard's body), but I hope this is something that can be addressed by the trade deadline.

I've wondered what having Jalen at the point-forward position could do for our offence. The problem is that Jalen gets more assists at the PG than Alvin ever did for us; Alvin, as much as I like him, and as well as he protects the ball, isn't really a playmaking guard. Alvin's offensive strengths are his ability to cross people over and his excellent transition game. I've never really seen Alvin as an excellent passer.

But being a great or fancy passer doesn't make you a great floor general, and this is something we've dealt with for a few seasons now. Unfortunately, the two hardest things in the NBA to find are big, strong, NBA-caliber centres, and pure point guards. I doubt there is any team that would pass on an opportunity to get either.

I also agree that Vince might be better-suited to return to the off-guard position. At first I thought making him a forward again, like when he played beside Doug, might inspire him to crash the paint more. While that has often been the case, having larger people guarding him and roughing him up has affected his shooting. I think Vince's best offensive weapon, his J-off-the-dribble, is weakened when he plays against taller defenders, because his ability to elevate above them to get clean looks is more difficult.

But even if we had one of these rare, pass-first PG's (which are few and far between, considering most of the all-star point guards in the league could be considered "combo" guards), it wouldn't totally solve our rebounding problems, and our interior scoring woes. But it could help just enough to keep our points-for higher than our points-against.
 

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Originally posted by <b>NeoSamurai</b>!

I think thats the most frustrating part of his game because all Raptor fans see that he can dominate a game from the post but instead in many games we see him fall in love with the fade way, 19 foot jumper.
it's very difficult to post up double teams. when that double comes vince can pass out much more easily if he's facing the basket.
 

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Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
- not enough ball movement (and our low assist numbers attest to that);
- not enough movement without the ball (players aren't getting open enough in the mid-range and under the basket; our open players are normally behind the arc);
Great post speedythief. I think these two points are the key. Remember right after the trade when the Raptors were putting up 100 points a game? The difference between now and then is these two areas. In recent games the only player who moves without the ball is Bosh. Everyone else arranges themselves around the three point line and hopes for a dish from Vince. That's a bit of an exaggeration, but still...

When the Raptors were scoring 100, they were cutting to the basket, getting alley-oops, dunks, layups, open looks.

As for what can they do to get back to that type of play? I think it is coaching. Obviously the players have the ability, they have shown that. Why can't they execute anymore? KO should sit down and watch tapes of those games over and over.

The theory I've heard is they played so well back then because the new players hadn't had time to learn KO's offense, so they just improvised, and it worked. Now that they execute KO's offense they have regressed to the worst offense in the league.
 

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duke of new york, a#1
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: Re: The Defence and the Offence, KO and the Numbers

Originally posted by <b>Ballyhoo</b>!
The theory I've heard is they played so well back then because the new players hadn't had time to learn KO's offense, so they just improvised, and it worked. Now that they execute KO's offense they have regressed to the worst offense in the league.
Good argument. This is another thing I've been hearing a lot of.

The idea of letting our players run the offence themselves, at least to a greater degree, seems like a solid argument.

I guess the problem is that if we let the players control the offence, can KO still maintain order on defence? If we give them a lot of freedom at one end of the court, can we expect them to follow orders on the other?

Increasing our scoring by 10 points per game, but allowing 10 points per game more, won't solve our problems. We would still be in the hole when it comes to points differential. But that is assuming that our players won't play the same kind of defence that has been the team's trademark thus far.
 

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TIME and SPACE

The Raptors lose these battles every game because of lack of speed at our guard spots.

The Raptors D is setup to Contain the opponent, not pressure them. Thus we don't get the fast break opportunities for easy buckets.

The Raptors O is designed to use up some clock before getting a good shot. In theory this forces the opponent to play hard D for longer stretches and wears them down. But the Raptors O puts no pressure on the other team. Our opponents seem to be able to stand around and rest because there is so little motion to our offense.

We bring the ball up the court very slowly because Alvin and Jalen don't have the speed or quickness of a Nash, Iverson, Marbury, Kidd, Parker, etc, etc. Thus we allow the D to set up and always have to fight hard to get a good shot.

On the D end we sometimes allow an easy bucket within 3-5 seconds after we have fought so hard to score on O. Teams move the ball up court very quickly against us and pressure us immediately, not giving us the time and space to set up. It is very frustrating for the players too.

Our lack of a post game or penetration hurts us in many ways. We don't cause fouls on the other team's bigs which means they get to play big minutes against us. We don't get into the penalty early which means no easy points from the line and lets the other team continue to be aggressive on D. And of course we don't get the high percentage looks in the paint that boost your FG%.

Pressure causes mistakes and breakdowns. The Raps do not pressure other teams. We need to attack the interior of the D by using a high post at the foul line to move the bigs around and create lanes for cutters. We need to move the defense around and make them work hard every possession.

After the trade the players were nervous, excited, energetic, and looking to prove something. They moved the ball very quickly and were very aggressive. After we lost a few games it became obvious the team had major weaknesses. Players settled into a routine and the grind of the schedule took away the enthusiasm we had with the trade. The offense is the same, its the players who are not delivering the same effort. Plus other teams have scouted the new Raptors and the easy passes have been cut off on the baseline. If KO is to blame at all, it is for playing the starters too many minutes and wearing them down mentally and physically. Bosh used to actually smile on the court at the start of the year.

Also, our starters are never punished for putting up bad shots or quick shots or missing defensive assignments. But god forbid a bench player puts up one bad shot or doesn't box out, he may never see the court again. Discipline is not being enforced with the starters.
 

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I've made my point on this subject many times in many ways, but here we go again. We need to stop running plays for vince, and only vince. We need to establish bosh and DM as an inside presence forcing other teams to play the perimeter honestly. We need to incorporate EVERYONE into the offensive. So people aren't firing up shot's when they finally get a chance to see the ball. Lets make this a good old fashion TEAM. Remember the old celtics?? Firing the ball around the perimeter getting open looks at the basket? working the ball inside. This team has multiple threats and if we forced the other teams to play defense as such we'd be getting WAY more open looks thus increasing our shot %. as it stand vince is our ONLY offensive option, and everyone else is frustrated...and nobody else can find their rythym.
 

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Some very good posts here!! I espsically agree with the idea of running plays for DM and Bosh in the post early in the game to set that up for us.

People also have to realize that the Raps can't decide who is gonna guard their guys - if we try to put Bosh at 4 and Baxter at 5, they still can gaurd Bosh with the center. Same with the back court - if we just re-arrange what we are calling VC, Rose and AW they can still guard them however they choose - ie: moving VC back to 2 spot, doesn't mean that he won't have to go up against 3 when he's got the ball. They probably have their best wing defender on VC, point on AW and 2 /3 lesser defender on Rose regardless of what position we are calling those guys.

The only way to dictate this is creat mismatches and make the other team match up against us. I know we don't have many options but, if we brought Arch is for a few mins at centre and left MArshall and Bosh in, and made a point of posting them up, then we could give DM or Bosh some shots in the post against a smaller or slower defender. We can only do that for few minutes though, or we've got all all our bigs in at once.
 
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