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Discussion Starter #1
Once the dust settles from this loss, Pax and co are sure to end the Tom Thibodeau era and maybe even the Noah era. Pax will sell the fanbase that Thibs was the sole reason why the Bulls could not get over the hump again and as usual the gullible fan base will eat it up.

The truth is, the Bulls franchise has systematically failed to put together a team capable of winning a title. People can go on and say that this was on paper the most talented team in recent history, and while that may be true, the results on the court where far from the best product in recent history. And it wasn't due to poor coaching.

Gasol was a nice addition but was a consistent defensive liability, Noah became a complete and utter useless piece 1 month into the season, Mirotic was just ineffective as a playoff caliber player, the bench disappeared and McDermott was not ready for the NBA. Pair that with a bellow average season by Rose, and you got yourself all the ingredients for another playoff exit to a team that can defend AND score. Not even Jimmy's breakout season could turn that around.
 

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Thibs is likely gone, but Noah has another year on that contract (and a bone on bone situation in his knee that could cause him to fail physicals if we try to trade him)... not sure the Noah era is over.
 

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I'd trade Mirotic as the center piece for a star player, should one become available. Hate that we're letting Thibs go, if anything GarPax should leave before him.
 

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truth be told this is an abysmal situation.

how often do good franchises fire good coaches for the same issue they had with the previous coach(minutes disputes/ general pettiness )?

how often ?

never

in truth we now live in a world where the clippers have a better organization than the bulls and the jobs of gar , pax and thibs are being done better by 1 man.

if I had my druthers i'd keep gar and thibs but I am not totally against the idea of cleaning house and starting over ...its been 12 years of paxson now and without that 1.7 chance coming to fruition in 2008 this team has been criminally mediocre for the most part under his stead, not quite enough to challenge for anything , not bad enough to believe anything on the horizon will truly change , and when those opportunities have come , max space free agency or a top 3 pick, by my count he is 1 for 5 and if not for that extreme bit of luck most likely instead of derrick rose the bulls would have netted dj Augustine instead who satisfies most of the criteria paxson usually goes for and played a position of need.

paxson has been bad for the franchise , he doesn't get a lot of bad press because he knows how to talk to reporters but his record speaks for itself, he's had his share of public relation gaffes (dnagate, choking VDN, running thibs out of town) he's gutted the team a couple of times for cap space to grab 2 bigs on the downside of their careers (ben Wallace and carlos boozer ) and he has wasted 2 top 3 picks in ben Gordon and tyrus Thomas ....he's not the guy to turn this around .

as bad as people talk about Krause after 12 years he had won 4 titles and was about to win 2 more in the next 2 years .

gar foreman has as general manager coincided with an uptick in player acquisition , they draft better ...much better, taj and jimmy come under his watch ...but they still are unable to get rose that 2nd star to compliment him and make them true contenders...and no gasol and jimmy aren't it , at one time gasol was , but its doubtful jimmy will ever be , an upgrade is still needed.

as for tom thib, he has an excellent defense, a strong relationship with his players , but his offense is boring and predictable and relies on shooters to make it effective , also I kind of agree with management that he runs his players into the ground, but I also think its a coach's prerogative to manage his players as he sees fit , and the players for the most part don't seem to mind. I wish he could manage his players with the foresight of popovich or phil Jackson but that doesn't seem to be in the cards. I don't think he is the coach that can take a team to a title .

with the physical failings of rose and noah, it might be time start over before the wheels completely come off .but I wouldn't want to start over with paxson he's had enough chances , i'm not sure about gar but i'd be ok with giving him a shot at running things, but if not just start over with all of them, a real plan for once.
 

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Bizkit...I know Bulls fans are not happy with Thibodeau right now, but I might be one of the few who thinks the Bulls front office will not set up Thibodeau as the "fall guy". IMO their story will be more like "Thibs did a great job in his 5 years here through alot of adversity. We thank him for that. It's time to move forward with a fresh face and get everyone on the same page".

Also, I strongly believe that everyone should not turn this into "Thibs is gone because X was his fault". Even though I don't like what I saw from Thibs in the post-season during his 5 years here and his flaws drive me nuts at times, this isn't about BLAMING anyone. It has everything to do with what will put the Chicago Bulls in the best position for success moving forward. Fact of the matter is that Thibodeau just isn't on the same page with the front office. They have differing, sometimes conflicting philosophies about how this team should be coached. That is a recipe for failure. You simply can't move forward as a franchise when everyone isn't on the same page.

People can gripe all they want about the Bulls front office being petty, back stabbing, etc...but it doesn't change that basic fact.

Lastly...while Thibodeau wasn't handed an ideal deck of cards this season (injuries, Noah's physical decline, etc.), I do think he deserves a big chunk of blame regardless. I don't think he did a good job adapting his system to his personnel. Elite coaches do that. He knows only 1 way to coach, that being defense first and out work the opponent. Problem is, he did this in spite of his personnel. This squad's offensive talents were often wasted and to this day I remain unimpressed with Thibodeau's ability to coach offensive sets. He is a legitimate defensive genius, though, I certainly admit that. Orlando or New Orleans will be a great fit where he'll have defensive cornerstones to work with that will buy into his approach.
 

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I'd trade Mirotic as the center piece for a star player, should one become available. Hate that we're letting Thibs go, if anything GarPax should leave before him.
Thing is, if you replace the GM/front office, the replacement will inevitably oust the coach at some point in favor of "his guy". Thibodeau would be gone anyways.

GarPax aren't perfect and I do think they need to do alot better keeping good relationships with their coaches (not micromanaging, better transparency). But in spite of that, I believe they are a top 10 front office in this league, if for no other reason their ability to draft and develop young talent (IMO that's the most important quality in a front office to succeed in this league). I mean, people talk about the cards Thibodeau was dealt, but the front office was the same...they've had to build a team for 3 years with virtual dead weight (Rose contract) taking up 25% of their salary cap for crying out loud. Noah was a bargain contract until his knees gave out this year; I'd blame Thibodeau more for that when he was running Joakim out there 40 minutes a game the previous 2 seasons.

I easily take a good front office over a good coach, 24/7.
 

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I like Thibs but time to let him go now and about our center position, we need a better player who can score also get boards.. Noah is dead, he's not doing anything but get boards so we gotta shape the team all over
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Bizkit...I know Bulls fans are not happy with Thibodeau right now, but I might be one of the few who thinks the Bulls front office will not set up Thibodeau as the "fall guy". IMO their story will be more like "Thibs did a great job in his 5 years here through alot of adversity. We thank him for that. It's time to move forward with a fresh face and get everyone on the same page".
The problem is they already set him up as the fall guy, even before the playoffs started. Anything positive they say will not erase the several months of behind the scenes drama and countless questions about his job security and his relationship with the front office.


Lastly...while Thibodeau wasn't handed an ideal deck of cards this season (injuries, Noah's physical decline, etc.), I do think he deserves a big chunk of blame regardless. I don't think he did a good job adapting his system to his personnel. Elite coaches do that. He knows only 1 way to coach, that being defense first and out work the opponent. Problem is, he did this in spite of his personnel. This squad's offensive talents were often wasted and to this day I remain unimpressed with Thibodeau's ability to coach offensive sets. He is a legitimate defensive genius, though, I certainly admit that. Orlando or New Orleans will be a great fit where he'll have defensive cornerstones to work with that will buy into his approach.
I think Thibs doesn't get a lot of respect for his ability to adapt his offenses to the personnel on the floor. Remember last year when Rose was out and the offense ran through Noah? This year the offense created a TON more open 3 point shot attempts but there is no magical offense that will make them just flat out fall in.

While I agree that Thibs isn't the best offensive tactician, nobody else was going to make these guys play any better or any more efficient on offense. Noah was a zombie out there, Rose is no where near the player he once was and Jimmy is a fine player but you don't win titles if hes your #2 . Mike D'Antonio wasn't going to make Kirk Hinrich a legit 6th man.

Things will change, they honestly have to try to do something different. I do believe it has to be a top to bottom change. Thibs will and probably should be gone, but so should Garpax who have consistently failed more at their job than Thibs did.
 

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You can't just expect GM's to be able to go out and get three superstars. It just doesn't work that way. Cleveland was able to pull it off because of Bron's decision and it made them a contender. One wasn't playing and had Gasol played Game 4 and 5, there is a very good chance the Bulls win those games and this series. There is nothing wrong with this Chicago team - they are very good. Winning a championship in this league just involves a certain amount of luck.
 

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Thibs' flaws to me were clearly the most obvious in the playoffs, dating back to his 1st season as Bulls coach. If his level of success in the playoffs matched or exceeded what he accomplished in the regular season, I would be far more on his side. But I can't cite a single playoff series during the Thibs era where I felt he did something creative to really give us an advantage over the other team we were playing. It was always just "we have enough, just work harder", shortening the rotations, or "we just have to execute better". Not to mention how many times did our guys just seem exhausted and unprepared for a playoff run because they were busting ass for 82 games prior. Then opposing coaches will find our achilles heel and exploit it while Thibs can't figure out a counter approach. Most of the time it came down to problems running our offense. I can guarantee there are coaches out there who would've been able to develop better counter measures to those types of problems. But, the real question is can they run a defense like Thibodeau. Thibs is not necessarily a top 3-5 coach in this league, but he is undoubtedly top 3 defensively.
 

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I'd trade Mirotic as the center piece for a star player, should one become available. Hate that we're letting Thibs go, if anything GarPax should leave before him.
Mirotic isn't getting you a star as the primary in a trade unless a few first rounders and possibly someone like Gibson is going along with him.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thibs' flaws to me were clearly the most obvious in the playoffs, dating back to his 1st season as Bulls coach. If his level of success in the playoffs matched or exceeded what he accomplished in the regular season, I would be far more on his side. But I can't cite a single playoff series during the Thibs era where I felt he did something creative to really give us an advantage over the other team we were playing. It was always just "we have enough, just work harder", shortening the rotations, or "we just have to execute better". Not to mention how many times did our guys just seem exhausted and unprepared for a playoff run because they were busting ass for 82 games prior. Then opposing coaches will find our achilles heel and exploit it while Thibs can't figure out a counter approach. Most of the time it came down to problems running our offense. I can guarantee there are coaches out there who would've been able to develop better counter measures to those types of problems. But, the real question is can they run a defense like Thibodeau. Thibs is not necessarily a top 3-5 coach in this league, but he is undoubtedly top 3 defensively.
This is just flat out wrong.

Every coach makes mistakes in the playoffs, EVERY losing coach gets questioned on what they could have been done differently, or why this play was/not called during a specific situation. Heck, 2 seasons ago the Gregg Popovich was heavily questioned for some of his calls in the finals and he is regarded as the best coach in the game.

At the end of the day you look at what Thibs was given, 2 out of 5 playoffs without Rose and NO second scoring/ballhandling option.

But I can't cite a single playoff series during the Thibs era where I felt he did something creative to really give us an advantage over the other team
Really? You can't even just look at this previous series and see that he absolutely had the Bulls play some of the best defense on Lebron James? He put the Bulls in the best position to win that series and yet his 2 stars shot under 40%, Noah was useless and the bench (The same bench that fans bitched about wanting on the court more) ABSOLUTELY sucked.

I will agree thats its time for Thibs to go, but its also time for Garpax to go and its time for a change of culture around here.
 

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This is just flat out wrong.

Every coach makes mistakes in the playoffs, EVERY losing coach gets questioned on what they could have been done differently, or why this play was/not called during a specific situation. Heck, 2 seasons ago the Gregg Popovich was heavily questioned for some of his calls in the finals and he is regarded as the best coach in the game.

At the end of the day you look at what Thibs was given, 2 out of 5 playoffs without Rose and NO second scoring/ballhandling option.
You stated your opinion, I'm stating mine. I actually agree that every coach makes mistakes, even the very best. This is not my problem with Thibodeau's playoff record, though, so don't misread me. It's the fact there is a consistent problematic trend of this happening. How does 8-seeded Indiana in 2010 and 6-seed Milwaukee this year (with a losing record 2nd half of the year) push us how they did. How do we flat-out roll over and die in the 2011 playoffs against 8-seeded Philadelpha. Rose or not, that was pathetic how we bowed out in 4 straight. Similar complaints with how we lost to Miami in 2010 (lost 4 straight), Cleveland this year (lost 3 straight in spite of them being decimated by injury), and Washington last year. It's not so much we lost these series because we didn't have the horses, rather it's HOW we lost. How does a team like the Bucks nearly take us the distance this year, but we are supposedly a similar defense only team and lost 3-4 games straight multiple times in the playoffs. Something is not right about that given it's a trend spanning 5 years.

Really? You can't even just look at this previous series and see that he absolutely had the Bulls play some of the best defense on Lebron James? He put the Bulls in the best position to win that series and yet his 2 stars shot under 40%, Noah was useless and the bench (The same bench that fans bitched about wanting on the court more) ABSOLUTELY sucked.

I will agree thats its time for Thibs to go, but its also time for Garpax to go and its time for a change of culture around here.
Hey, I said Thibs is still a defensive genius. I agree, he puts up great schemes to defend Lebron, no one is questioning that. But what does he sacrifice to make that happen? When you are burning Jimmy Butler's energy 45 minutes per game to defend Lebron with solo coverage, something is going to give.

Re: Noah...yes he was terrible, but isn't Thibodeau the one trotting him out there as much as he did? Thibodeau is also the one who (reportedly) was constantly at odds with the athletic training staff when they set a minutes limit for Noah based on his health problems. Thibodeau wanted to run Noah out there 35+ minutes a game like the past 2 years but the training staff said no until late in the season. Also I know there are complaints out there about Gasol and Noah not fitting well together, and I kind of agree, but again Thibodeau is the one who could've done more Taj-Gasol or Mirotic-Noah lineups, or hell bring Noah off the bench. He chose not to do so.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I respect your opinion but Thibs is so far from the problem. Hes not the reason the Bulls lost any of those playoff series, to even imply that hes the problem is just flat out wrong.

We can go back and forth about what he could have done differently, but there should be no doubt in anyone's minds that there was nothing he could have done to win those series. Was he at times out coached? Sure. Everyone gets out-coached once in a while. But the fact still remains, he is the second greatest coach this franchise has ever had.

So its time to move on. I think we both agree, and hopefully I hope the fan base agrees that its time for Garpax to leave to as well. Thibs can't be the only person in this franchise that has to be held accountable for the consistent trend of failing. It has to start at the top.
 

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I respect your opinion but Thibs is so far from the problem. Hes not the reason the Bulls lost any of those playoff series, to even imply that hes the problem is just flat out wrong.

We can go back and forth about what he could have done differently, but there should be no doubt in anyone's minds that there was nothing he could have done to win those series. Was he at times out coached? Sure. Everyone gets out-coached once in a while. But the fact still remains, he is the second greatest coach this franchise has ever had.

So its time to move on. I think we both agree, and hopefully I hope the fan base agrees that its time for Garpax to leave to as well. Thibs can't be the only person in this franchise that has to be held accountable for the consistent trend of failing. It has to start at the top.

It isn't GarPax's fault that Rose had multiple knee injuries and that Jo's may also be shot. That is the primary reason the Bulls have not been consistent contenders.

It's also not Thibs's fault, but he seems to have lost a good chunk of the team, and when that happens, it is time to go.
 

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I've enjoyed reading the discussion here, Thibs is kind of a maddening character in a lot of ways. I think his positives outweigh his negatives, but he presents a frustrating series of weird dichotomies. He's obviously a very good coach and the 'defensive genius' label is pretty apt. He's also apparently an odd guy that has trouble relating to people. He has helped develop some quality players for us and has been able to turn injury-riddled teams into playoff teams... then again we've seen him get out-coached by Randy Wittman (and arguably Jason Kidd, others) in the playoffs. His players play hard for him, execute, and hustle... but on the other hand I've heard that his offensive play calls are so predictable, longstanding and routine that opposing NBA players know exactly what play is being run, know exactly where everyone is supposed to go, etc... Sometimes we execute so well that it doesn't matter, but I wasn't encouraged to hear that (I think I heard Jason Goff on 670 talking about a conversation he had with an opposing player, or scout, or something, so take that last bit with the appropriate grain of salt.). I'm not one to be bothered by his tendency to play guys big minutes... I don't think he's been as outrageous with it as some people think. That being said, I hate the adjustments he makes to the rotation come playoff time. All of the sudden guys are getting buried, starters aren't getting their usual rest, guys that were spark plugs during the regular season aren't getting their typical run at the end of the 1st and 3rd quarters (not just this season, though we did manage to turn Niko and Aaron Brooks into non-factors in the playoffs this year), we're doing odd things like playing Mike Dunleavy at the 4 for the first time all season, etc...

I guess overall I'd still like him to stay... but that's almost more out of a fear that there may not be any better candidates on the market. We know Thibs isn't perfect, but we know he's very good at what he does. What do we know about Fred Hoiberg? Maybe he's the next great coach in Bulls history, I'm not ruling that out, but it is a pretty big question mark to tackle when you have a guy under contract that has won at a 53 win pace despite a myriad of injury issues.

If Thibodeau is fired/traded, etc... I'm pretty much with @thebizkit69u on being ready to clean out the entire front office. This shit with not being able to get along with coaches is getting old. Vinny Del Negro never should have been hired in the first place, that personnel decision alone shook my confidence in the current leadership. John Paxson also tried to choke him out. Literally. The only reason he seems to get a pass for that is because people generally thought Vinny Del Negro was an idiot. Now, he and Gar Forman can't seem to get along with Thibodeau. Not a good trend. They've secured some decent assets over the years but have also had their share of misses. Since Paxson's second season in the front office we've been competitive essentially the entire time... Forman is harder for me to judge because his tenure ('09-present) coincides with the Tom Thibodeau era. I also don't know who has done what between Paxson/Foreman during their respective times in the front office, what the division of work/power is. But if Tom Thibodeau is going to lose his job over this teams failure to get to a championship, I see no reason why Paxson and Forman shouldn't have to wear that as well.
 

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I am somewhat holding off on front office discussion for the time being, because in my mind that is a far more convoluted topic. You've got Jerry Reinsdorf who is getting every closer to handing the reigns to his son Michael. Until that happens, I just can't see Jerry firing Paxson unless the team goes down the toilet. Fact of the matter is the team has been very competitive for the majority of Paxson's time here. Jerry views the Bulls franchise as business and seems to love Pax for that b/c it's kept the fans rolling in.

With Gar, who knows...I have a feeling he would be fired well before Pax. I think it's hilarious we say "GarPax" did this and that (even I say this), yet we really have no idea what decisions are more Pax and which are more Gar. I have a feeling this is deliberate. Regardless, I see Gar as the obvious front office fall guy if things go south, which I am fine with. I am a far bigger fan of Paxson, who in spite of tie gate, I think he is a very smart guy and actually has ethics. (I think this is why he was so beaten down after a few years doing the job by himself). I am not so sure about Gar's ethics from what I have gathered; seems like a guy who doesn't mind doing questionable business tactics.

In any case, when Michael Reinsdorf takes over the team, he seems like a very different personality from his father. More of a genuine love of the Bulls is what I've heard; not unlike how Jerry feels about the White Sox. I've no idea what Michael's relationship with Pax or Gar is, but I will say that with any sports franchise, any replacements at the top levels very often lead to changes at the bottom levels. A new owner often wants to bring in "his guys" to run the team. Then again this is all the Reinsdorf family so anything can happen.

Bottom line I think Gar and Pax are safe unless one or both of them have a PR disaster (something like tie gate part II), or the team just becomes seemingly hopeless (e.g., Jerry Krause 2003). And even if the latter happens, I could see Pax sticking around while Gar is the one let go and replaced.
 
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