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"Meow."
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm feeling anxious. The board is down to one Kirk or Jamal thread on it's first page :D.

From C Blizzy:
For all the accolades Hinrich has collected from coaches around the league, he's still one piece of the puzzle, and not the centerpiece. We still need to find ourselves a go-to guy, a closer...someone like Paul Pierce.
We Bulls fans have been in rebuilding mode long enough to to learn from our mistakes. It's not prudent to trade exploding talent for marginal vetran stars. Artest and Miller for Rose; Curry or Crawford for ?. Likewise, never underestimate the ceiling for our young players with college experience.

When we shipped Elton Brand for TC consenses was that it was a daring but necessary move. Elton was never going to be able to carry a team. Brand's defense and ability to create his own shot were mediocre. He had solid statistics but, as the only talent on his team, they were bloated. Brand lacked star power and because he already had college seasoning he was bever going to break through the proverbial glass ceiling.

I haven't seen people pushing this argument in a couple of years. Elton has continued to step up his game, and is now an elite defender in the league. Though still not an elite offensive player, he has established himself as the best rebounder in the game. Everything Brand provides is conducive to winning and I foward that he is more valuable then the Dirk Nowitzky/Paul Pierce/J Oneil types that will be showcased next weekend.

This brings us to what I view as consenses on Kirk Hinrich: Good player, never a star. Why?

KH's D is nasty; has one of the best strokes in the league; has shown the abilty to take it to the hole; his assist numbers are downright sick for a rookie; equally effective playing point and working at the two. But, there's the glass ceiling again. KH has college experience, and therefore is never going to provied star power??? Kirk has been ***** slapped by the "rookie wall" and has looked downright ordinary of late, but I see no reason why he could not develop into a perennial all-star.

I hate statistical comparisons, but It is not hyperbole to compare Brands and KH rookie statistics:

Brand: 20.1 p, 10 r
KH: 10.7, 5.8 a

Obviously Brands are better, but one expects different levels of production from a pf and a pg. I don't think it is unreasonable to project Kirk finishing the season at around 13p and 7a. Using these numbers how does Kirk compare to the elite pgs in the league: JKidd 17p and 9.8a, Cassell 21p, 7.7 a, Francis 16.6p, 5.9a, Payton 14.7p, 6a, Starbury 20.1p, 8.7a. Why does everyone assume he is not going to become an elite pg in this league? Furthermore, the transition in to the league for a pg, especially if they are a smaller guard, is more difficult than it is for a pf. I could show how Kirk's numbers compare favorably with the players listed above, but these arguments have been made ad nausium.

Don't believe the hype, there is no glass ceiling. Someone please tell me why Brand and Kirk are different...
 

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You are right. Elton and Hinrich are comprable. Both will never be the best player on a championship team.

I believe that is C.Blizzy's point.
 

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"Meow."
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Originally posted by <b>TripleDouble</b>!
You are right. Elton and Hinrich are comprable. Both will never be the best player on a championship team.

I believe that is C.Blizzy's point.
Have you caught much Clips this year. If Elton wasn't injured for a good part of this early season the Clips are in firm control of a playoff spot. You can have Pierce, I'll take Brand.
 

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Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
I'm feeling anxious. The board is down to one Kirk or Jamal thread on it's first page :D.

From C Blizzy:


We Bulls fans have been in rebuilding mode long enough to to learn from our mistakes. It's not prudent to trade exploding talent for marginal vetran stars. Artest and Miller for Rose; Curry or Crawford for ?. Likewise, never underestimate the ceiling for our young players with college experience.

When we shipped Elton Brand for TC consenses was that it was a daring but necessary move. Elton was never going to be able to carry a team. Brand's defense and ability to create his own shot were mediocre. He had solid statistics but, as the only talent on his team, they were bloated. Brand lacked star power and because he already had college seasoning he was bever going to break through the proverbial glass ceiling.

I haven't seen people pushing this argument in a couple of years. Elton has continued to step up his game, and is now an elite defender in the league. Though still not an elite offensive player, he has established himself as the best rebounder in the game. Everything Brand provides is conducive to winning and I foward that he is more valuable then the Dirk Nowitzky/Paul Pierce/J Oneil types that will be showcased next weekend.

This brings us to what I view as consenses on Kirk Hinrich: Good player, never a star. Why?

KH's D is nasty; has one of the best strokes in the league; has shown the abilty to take it to the hole; his assist numbers are downright sick for a rookie; equally effective playing point and working at the two. But, there's the glass ceiling again. KH has college experience, and therefore is never going to provied star power??? Kirk has been ***** slapped by the "rookie wall" and has looked downright ordinary of late, but I see no reason why he could not develop into a perennial all-star.

I hate statistical comparisons, but It is not hyperbole to compare Brands and KH rookie statistics:

Brand: 20.1 p, 10 r
KH: 10.7, 5.8 a

Obviously Brands are better, but one expects different levels of production from a pf and a pg. I don't think it is unreasonable to project Kirk finishing the season at around 13p and 7a. Using these numbers how does Kirk compare to the elite pgs in the league: JKidd 17p and 9.8a, Cassell 21p, 7.7 a, Francis 16.6p, 5.9a, Payton 14.7p, 6a, Starbury 20.1p, 8.7a. Why does everyone assume he is not going to become an elite pg in this league? Furthermore, the transition in to the league for a pg, especially if they are a smaller guard, is more difficult than it is for a pf. I could show how Kirk's numbers compare favorably with the players listed above, but these arguments have been made ad nausium.

Don't believe the hype, there is no glass ceiling. Someone please tell me why Brand and Kirk are different...

Talent and perception are the biggest reasons

1. brand came to the bulls as being the best player in college basketball a sure star although people didn't think superstar.

2. kirk although also a lotto pick most people thought of him as a supporting piece because thats how he plays best as.

Simply put elton was a better player in 2 years of college than kirk was in 4

in addition to that there were #s they put up, Elton put up star numbers while kirk puts up mediocre ones...there has to be a line somewhere if not what stops people from saying dupree has no ceiling even though he wasn't in the league too long ago...and the line is somewhere around Elton's game where some people at 1st touted him the next karl malone and some thought he'd be a good 3rd star on a team ...while at best people say kirk would be a good 3rd star on a team
 

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"Meow."
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: Re: The Kirk Hinrich/Elton Brand Mistake!

Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!



Talent and perception are the biggest reasons

1. brand came to the bulls as being the best player in college basketball a sure star although people didn't think superstar.

2. kirk although also a lotto pick most people thought of him as a supporting piece because thats how he plays best as.

Simply put elton was a better player in 2 years of college than kirk was in 4

in addition to that there were #s they put up, Elton put up star numbers while kirk puts up mediocre ones...there has to be a line somewhere if not what stops people from saying dupree has no ceiling even though he wasn't in the league too long ago...and the line is somewhere around Elton's game where some people at 1st touted him the next karl malone and some thought he'd be a good 3rd star on a team ...while at best people say kirk would be a good 3rd star on a team
Thanks for the response, I'll defend myself one last time and then shut up.

Your take on the Brand draft is inconsitent with my memories. I recall an interview with Kenny Smith minutes before the draft took place where he stated that Lamar Odom was going to be Krause's obvious choice because you just don't draft a player who projects to 16 and 9 with the first pick. All the hype was circulating around the "troubled" Odom and Francis.

Also, the Bulls are bad this year, no doubt. But, the Brand rookie team was a new low in any era. I have flashbacks of BJ Armstrong jubiliantly throwing a ball in the air after the Bulls finally won "a" game...like they had just won a seventh championship. There was no talent on that team, and to an extent, Brand's numbers were bloated. This is all projection, but if you switched Brand with Hinrich on that pitiful team, I think he's putting up 16-17p a game.
 

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Re: Re: Re: The Kirk Hinrich/Elton Brand Mistake!

Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!


Thanks for the response, I'll defend myself one last time and then shut up.

Your take on the Brand draft is inconsitent with my memories. I recall an interview with Kenny Smith minutes before the draft took place where he stated that Lamar Odom was going to be Krause's obvious choice because you just don't draft a player who projects to 16 and 9 with the first pick. All the hype was circulating around the "troubled" Odom and Francis.

Also, the Bulls are bad this year, no doubt. But, the Brand rookie team was a new low in any era. I have flashbacks of BJ Armstrong jubiliantly throwing a ball in the air after the Bulls finally won "a" game...like they had just won a seventh championship. There was no talent on that team, and to an extent, Brand's numbers were bloated. This is all projection, but if you switched Brand with Hinrich on that pitiful team, I think he's putting up 16-17p a game.
there was kukoc on that team and little else but i doubt very much that kirk would have better stats on that team than he does now.The bulls need scoring now if kirk could step up and score more no one would mind in fact it would be greatly apreciated. And i think you are right about what kenny said but most scouts saw a karl malone jr. and thats who he was most compared to. He was considered a solid pick but not someone people thought was a franchise player like francis or Odom, but he was far more touted than kirk who in that draft probably would not have gone til the 10th after marion because kirk has never been a number one option and was best when he was a 3rd option behind collison and gooden and seeing as he put up 17.3 as his best avg. in college i dont see him as a 17 pt scorer in the nba under just about any circumstances in his 1st year
 

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"Meow."
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Kukoc was only on Brand's rookie team for 24 games before JK shipped him for the rights to the 7th pick. It was basically the Ron Artest/Elton Brand show...

Also, college numbers never project to the pro's. I don't want to go deep into this, but off the top of my head Shaq and Jordan never scored in college like they did in the League. I would hardly call Hinrich a second option on those Kansas teams either: more like two first options.

Whatever... I'll by your point about the hype to an extent. After all, Brand was the number one pick in the draft which inherently carries with it more expectations then the 7th.
 

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Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
Kukoc was only on Brand's rookie team for 24 games before JK shipped him for the rights to the 7th pick. It was basically the Ron Artest/Elton Brand show...

Also, college numbers never project to the pro's. I don't want to go deep into this, but off the top of my head Shaq and Jordan never scored in college like they did in the League. I would hardly call Hinrich a second option on those Kansas teams either: more like two first options.

Whatever... I'll by your point about the hype to an extent. After all, Brand was the number one pick in the draft which inherently carries with it more expectations then the 7th.
you are right about kukoc i forgot he was traded during the year...but while college numbers dont usually project the type of player you may be the kind of player you are while putting them up in addition to your pyhsical gifts usually does(BTW shaq avg 27.6 and 14.7 his soph. year) If you are a 1st option scoring type in college a player generally shows that kind of scoring ability and if you will project into a dominant rebounder chances are you showed that ability in college too and so with particular skills, that what scouts take out of play in college . If you suck all the way thru college they aren't going to have much faith you generally no matter what your pyhsical gifts are.
 

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consistency over star power

I thought it was a joke when Brand was traded, and I thought it was great when KH was drafted. I liked Brad Miller and Ron Artest. Wouldn't that have been a great team to have on the floor. the reason the bulls didn't like it was they wanted offensive potential rather than defense and offensive consistency. Sure there is an arguement for a star to carry the game at the end but I would rather see Artest or KH make a defensive stop or steal and see MIller or Brand get that important post stop and D-rebound. That is why I only like watching teams like the Jazz, five players that work as a unit and work on defense. I know the bulls beat them the other night, and the sun will shine on a dog's but every now and again. Point being, I am a Bulls fan that has been sad for years.
 

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Originally posted by <b>TripleDouble</b>!
You are right. Elton and Hinrich are comprable. Both will never be the best player on a championship team.

I believe that is C.Blizzy's point.
The problem with this theory is that neither are able to be dealt for anyone who will ever be the best player on a championship team.

To put this in quantitative figures, there have been 5 best players on a championship team over the past decade, arguably 4, if you count Tim Duncan in San Antonio's first championship. You can't say that either Brand or Hinrich will ever be traded for a player who is a top 5 player of the course of the decade. Absolutely nuts.

If you keep trading the likes of Brand and perhaps Hinrich, you'll continue being the worst team in the league. This team has the pieces assembled to potentially become another Sacramento (inarguably championship material), and yet you're all so obsessed with finding the next Michael Jordan.
 
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