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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
>>"You go with the guy who can run the team," Cartwright said. "Our point guard is not going to come out and hoist double-digit shots. A perfect line for our point guard would be six points and 12 assists."<<
 

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Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
Bring back Kevin Ollie!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I almost spit juice all over myself when I read that:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Seriously, I hope Cartwright is just trying to impress upon the kids the need to pass first, shoot second.

Both of our guys are effective scorers, and it would only hurt the team if he castrated their offensive potential in this manner.


And BCH...Ollie probably didn't have 12 assists the whole SEASON. I would take him over Hughes at the one though. :p
 

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I seriously can't imagine a reason for Cartwright to say that when he knows he has Crawford and Williams as PGs. If that is what he wants out of the PG position then JWill was a horrible pickup for the Bulls, and Cartwright doesn't know how to utilize him.

Crawford and JWill both are shoot-first PGs.
 

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Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
I seriously can't imagine a reason for Cartwright to say that when he knows he has Crawford and Williams as PGs. If that is what he wants out of the PG position then JWill was a horrible pickup for the Bulls, and Cartwright doesn't know how to utilize him.

Crawford and JWill both are shoot-first PGs.
I agree that Cartwright blundered. But lets cut him a little slack as well. He's still getting used to having microphones and recorders shoved in his face all the time as a head coach.

As a player you can get away with being a little more direct when dealing with the media because for the most part you're speaking on your own behalf. You can also deflect alot of issues with the disclaimer that its not your place to evaluate teamates or coaches. But as the head coach you're speaking on behalf of the entire organization and you're expected to have an opinion on everything team-related, whether you care to share the truth with the public or not. As a team/organization spokesman you often times have to respond to media questions with something less than the real truth because you're now a decision maker. And it's not always in the best interest of those who answer to you to let the public know your real thought process on a juicy issue.

Cartwright's still on a learning curve when it comes to representing the entire organization.
 

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Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
Cartwright's still on a learning curve when it comes to representing the entire organization.
Well, Cartwright is already way ahead of his boss. Personally, I am ready to give this a little more time b/f I am ready to call this a blunder on anyone's part. I would like to see what we get out of JWill and Craw this year when we have some of the vets on the floor.

As for his specific statement, the way that I interpret it is that neither guy is giving him exactly what he wants ideally or playing up to their potential. Tough to argue with that!
 

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...but I digress. Lets take a look at a couple of successful veteran guards who absolutely monopolize the ball for their respective teams. One leans heavily towards getting his teamates involved as soon as possible. The other emphasises scoring over everything else. And each player's team has been to the NBA Finals recently.

I'm talking about Jason Kidd and Allen Iverson.

Lets run down their career stats.

Jason Kidd: 9 seasons. 14.2ppg, 40% FG Pct., 32% three point FG Pct., 76% FT Pct., 2.1 steals, 9.4 assists, 3.37 TO's.

Allen Iverson: 6 seasons. 26.9ppg, 42% FG Pct., 32% three point FG Pct., 76% FT Pct., 2.3 steals, 5.6 assists, 3.6 TO's.

Statistically there's alot to point to with both players if your goal is to devalue them. Lousy shooting percentages, too many turnovers, etc. But there's one thing that will never appear on any individual stat sheet: they're both winners and have been given strong consideration for league MVP honors.

Stats are overated! You're either a winner or you're not. That's all that matters. I could care less what Williams or Crawford's stats are. All I care about is which player gives us a better chance to win. And there's simply no way to come to any type of conclusion based on individual stats.

So if you can't use stats as a basis of who's better suited to play the point for the Bulls, I guess it really comes down to those mystical characteristics they call "intangibles." Anybody care to comment on each PG candidate's "intangibles?":confused:
 

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Is that a loaded question or what?

JWill has shown the intangibles since he was drafted, and throughout his college career. Crawford has not in either respect, outside of a quick rehab from his knee injury.

I think putting it that way makes this a cut and dry situation.
 

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Originally posted by <b>gettinbranded</b>!
>>"You go with the guy who can run the team," Cartwright said. "Our point guard is not going to come out and hoist double-digit shots. A perfect line for our point guard would be six points and 12 assists."<<
Fellas,

If you know Cartwright then this kind of statement won't surprise you at all. Bill regularly messes with the media by throwing out statements like this to see if anyone is dopy enough to bite. I guarrantee you that when he saw this in print he laughed his arse off. Remember, writing about the Chicago Bulls isn't rocket science. Look at all of us, for example! :jump:
 

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Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
Is that a loaded question or what?

JWill has shown the intangibles since he was drafted, and throughout his college career. Crawford has not in either respect, outside of a quick rehab from his knee injury.

I think putting it that way makes this a cut and dry situation.
Are you suggesting I deliberately phrased the question in a way that would solicit a favorable response? Ok, I admit it...you've seen right through me! But guess what? In one of Modrowski's more insightful Bulls articles he has cut to the chase on this very issue and stated what we've all believed for some time now:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-roman18.html

The moment Bill Cartwright established leadership as the defining quality of his starting point guard, competition for the position ceased to exist. Because while Jamal Crawford might be able to match or beat Jay Williams in any statistical category, when it comes to intangibles, especially leadership, perception becomes reality. And the perception is Williams' strength is leadership.

So much for the competition at PG. But why is Cartwright alternating starts between the two players? And why is he giving all who will listen the impression that its neck and neck between the two to see who starts?

The simple answer, and the obvious one is that it increases Crawford's market value. Think about it. The coaching staff is creating the perception that Jamal Crawford is every bit as good as the player who was selected #2 overall in this years draft and would probably have been chosen #1 overall in the '01 draft. WOW! I didn't know that playing pickup games with MJeff could raise your skill level that much in such a short time.

Wanna hear Krause's sales pitch on Crawford to the rest of the league?

Krause said Thursday he doesn't expect Crawford to be a problem, and besides, he doesn't always trade players who are unhappy and want to leave.

"Charles Oakley wanted to be traded last year,'' Krause said. "But Oak didn't get traded, did he?

In other words, "Just because Jamal had a little run in with Bill, don't think we're going to give him away."

"I have every confidence in Jamal that he will do the right thing. He's an extremely valuable player to this organization and was a very high draft choice at No. 7. And we have a very good situation here with two outstanding point guards.''

Krause is setting the market when he describes Crawford as an extremely valuable player and an outstanding point guard. And if it's draft choices we're talking about, don't waste Jerry's time unless you're willing to part with a high lottery pick. Afterall, "He was a very high draft choice at No. 7." Actually I believe he was the 8th pick and was traded for Mihm who was the 7th pick. But why quibble over one slot when you're trying to drive up Crawford's value any way you can.

Why is a trade inevitable? As Modrowski notes:

Crawford is frustrated, and he has told at least one confidant he believes Cartwright is favoring Williams. But if Crawford's frustration already is erupting, it's not likely to go away, especially if the Bulls start losing. Crawford's agent, Aaron Goodwin, said he won't have a problem if his client is beaten out by Williams, but he said if the job simply were handed to Williams, Goodwin would consider asking Krause to trade Crawford.

All that remains to be seen is WHEN will Krause take action. Will he trade Crawford before the end of the month and give Jamal's new team the choice of picking up his contract option? Or will he exercise Crawford's option and wait as long as it takes for the right deal to come along? Stay tuned.
 

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Yeah, stats are WAY overrated for PGs

Dickie Hurtz,

Your post in regard to PGs was excellent. Stats simply DO NOT MATTER for PGs, but rather it is the intangible qualities that sets apart the good from the great.

Here on this board we constantly quibble over an extra turnover in JWill's statline or a poor shooting performance from Crawford. These points matter very little in the grand scheme. Instead we should care more about the overall IMPACT a PG has on the composition of the game.

How does his energy/emotion enhance or detract from his teammates play?

How does his tempo-setting play to the team's strengths or weaknesses?

How does he handle the team with the game on the line?

One thing that is very noticeable amongst almost every top PG is that they all have glaringly bad stats, usually in a few specific areas, FG% and TOs topping the list. Still, we know these guys have a profound effect on the outcome of the game.

So what DOES determine how good a PG is? If you look at the most successful PGs (in terms of playoff success) in the NBA right now - Kidd, Payton, Davis and Bibby - there are a few things common to all of them:

(1) They control the tempo of the game
(2) They set the tone on defense
(3) Their scoring is clutch. They come through on offense more when the game is on the line than during the flow of the game.
(4) They make teammates better on offense, while utilizing their own offensive tools when the situation dictates.

In the end, does it matter that these guys had 5 or 6 TOs along the way and only shot 30% from the field before the 4th quarter? Hell no! What matters is that these guys MAKE plays during the game, and make BIG plays when it matters most.

Bringing the argument to JWill and Crawford, it's clear to me that JWill is the preferable PG. He has all the same foibles as other great PGs, but also has that uncanny ability to WILL his team to victory. He sets the tone, and dictates the style of play in a game. He MAKES a game what it is, while Crawford lets the game dictate him. Crawford has nice skills, but he will never AFFECT the game the way JWill can. Period. End of Story.
 

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i think bill means that it would be perfect the pg to have those stats, as long as they are winning.
 

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Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
So much for the competition at PG. But why is Cartwright alternating starts between the two players? And why is he giving all who will listen the impression that its neck and neck between the two to see who starts?

The simple answer, and the obvious one is that it increases Crawford's market value.
And so are we to believe that the other GM's in the league are foolish enough to evaluate Crawford's value based on what Cartwright and Krause say to the media?

I give them a little more credit than that. Teams have scouting departments for a good reason.
 

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Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!


Are you suggesting I deliberately phrased the question in a way that would solicit a favorable response? Ok, I admit it...you've seen right through me! But guess what? In one of Modrowski's more insightful Bulls articles he has cut to the chase on this very issue and stated what we've all believed for some time now:
Not loaded to solicit a favorable response but loaded in the sense that it is going to get a lot of responses both ways.

Modrowski seems to have it right. As soon as I heard it was a question of leadership I realized the deck had been stacked against Jamal. I just figured if I was the person to bring it up, the resulting "hater" type responses would ensue.
 

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leadership?

who supposedly has leadership quality amongst williams and crawford

to me its perception but not the perception anyone on this board can decipher

its on the court

its in the locker room

its in the hotels and on the buses at any clubs or over players houses

very few instances in the scheme of things even reporters have a birds eye view of

but everyone in here is an expert on leadership that carries on , on the bulls team

Rose is a leader that is in uniform agreement among the players and management

and people swear j-will was that kind of leader for the blue devils (although its pretty well known that Dunleavy jr. would disagree)

but that was college and very few of the so-called leaders in college are big time leaders in the nba

was shaq known as the guy to head for when leadership was needed in college? no the guy in the 92 draft known for all the intangibles and leadership was a dukie by the name of christian laettner

and a decade later who would you say has done more to lead his teams?

who are the great leaders in the todays nba at the point guard spot? Kidd ? stockton? payton?mark jackson?

how are these players thought of in college as far as leaders or even as young players in the league

all of them except for stockton were considered shaky leaders at best and as for stockton he didn't even start his 1st 3 years so he wasn't in a leadership position until he 26 unless you want to talk about his leadership on the jazz 2nd unit

and all the so-called leaders in college at the point guard spot mateen cleeves , el-amin,bibby , andre miller , jaque vaughn have all proven one thing if your game doesn't get the job done no one will listen to your leadership if in fact you had it to begin with

and if he cant outplay JC his credibility is shot

how is he going to tell hassell or anyone else if he dogs it in practice or a game to work harder if the pg spot was given to him for reasons unrelated to his play?

thats why rose is a leader because his game as well as his personality dictates that he be one

oakley could talk and people would listen because he knows what it takes to be successful in the nba

what can williams tell TC and EC about nba life that THEY have experienced but williams only knows about 2nd hand?

bottom line leadership is earned or it is taken it cant be given


but thats what everyone is trying to do in here and in the press and its wrong and it wont work
 

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Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!

And so are we to believe that the other GM's in the league are foolish enough to evaluate Crawford's value based on what Cartwright and Krause say to the media?

I give them a little more credit than that. Teams have scouting departments for a good reason.
What's wrong with a little salesmanship, a little chutzpah? Sure, there are scouts who attend every game. But they don't attend practices. So when Crawford misbehaves at practice and its interpreted six different ways from Sunday by various members of the media, its up to management to put a positive spin on the matter.

Case in point...here's Cartwright's public stance on the whole Crawford issue: "Jamal's been fine,'' Cartwright said. "He's been working hard and playing hard, as far as I'm concerned.''

But Modrowski gets paid the big bucks by the Sun Times to uncover the real truth about all things Bullish, such as: According to one player, Crawford has displayed this kind of frustration throughout camp as he has split time and starts with Williams. Oops! that isn't the kind of information the Bulls' spinmeisters want to see the media get ahold of.

Oh, what the hell...it's all about perception, isn't it. The Bulls don't want to see Crawford labeled a disruptive influence, even if he is. That kind of a reputation, deserved or otherwise, can not only devalue a player, it can turn him into a worthless basketball leper. And I don't think anyone in the Bulls front office wants to see that highly regarded #7 overall pick in the 2000 draft come down with a terminal case of trade cooties!
 

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Whether he knows it or not , Jamal is a leading scriptwriter in his own soap opera right now
 

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I think BC is being realistic.

He's got a choice of two point guards that combine to put up 30 shots per game and shoot around 30% and get 4 combined assists.

If they're not going to shoot well, the idea of trying to use their great skills to penetrate and pass off to open scorers is not so far fetched.

Nothing would please me more than to see Lonny Baxter continue to show that any time he's asked to perform, against any level of competition, he does so - and consistently.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
>>"You go with the guy who can run the team," Cartwright said. "Our point guard is not going to come out and hoist double-digit shots. A perfect line for our point guard would be six points and 12 assists."<<
Hmmm...
 
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