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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I want to start out by saying that I like the Pistons alot, and Billups is a great player. But the problem with him at the end of games, which has happened 3 times recently, and I remember it happenning plenty times before, is that he relies on the referees to bail him out and make a call at the end of games. Wouldn't it be a smarter thing to try to take a good shot instead of, from the games I've seen and heard about the past year or two, jumping into guys and trying to draw a foul. And then when he doesn't get a call, the coach gets all mad and yells at the refs and the Pistons and there fans have an excuse for the loss. This doesn't have to do with any particular game, or have anything to do with me not liking him, because I do like him. But I think he should rely on actually shooting the ball at the end of games, instead of putting the game in the refs hands. That's what you want as a player, the game in your hands in the closing moments, but Billups repeatedly puts the game into the refs hands and makes them make a tough call either way. It's a good plan if you're the type of guy that likes to make excuses when you lose, but it's not how you should play.
 

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Yeah he has been caught a couple times trying to draw a foul, but have you forgotten all the other clutch shots he has nailed over the last two seasons. Those GW or game clicnching shots he has made have surpassed the shots he has failed to draw contact on. What makes him special is that he isn't afraid to fail or take the game winning shot. Bank on him winning a couple for us in the future.
 

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The problem with that statement is that is the way Billups plays ALL the time.

When he goes to the hole he goes hard and looks for contact because he is one of the leagues stronger points and a great free throw shooter. That's why he is 3rd in the league in FT's.

I think the problem with Billups is he is so good with the ball late in the game that every single person in the arena knows who is taking the last shot and he gets double teamed from the inbound pass until the buzzer.

On his last shot tonight, he had 2.2 seconds to get off a 3, there was no time to pass, he didn't have an open look and he got caught between deciding if he wanted to try to draw a foul or put up a tough leener and his shot was a mixture of the two. He probably would have been better off commiting to one or the other, but either way it was a tough situation.
 

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Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
Yeah he has been caught a couple times trying to draw a foul, but have you forgotten all the other clutch shots he has nailed over the last two seasons. Those GW or game clicnching shots he has made have surpassed the shots he has failed to draw contact on. What makes him special is that he isn't afraid to fail or take the game winning shot. Bank on him winning a couple for us in the future.
Thats true. He does try to draw contact a lot, but he has hit a lot of big shots.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
Yeah he has been caught a couple times trying to draw a foul, but have you forgotten all the other clutch shots he has nailed over the last two seasons. Those GW or game clicnching shots he has made have surpassed the shots he has failed to draw contact on. What makes him special is that he isn't afraid to fail or take the game winning shot. Bank on him winning a couple for us in the future.
Ya, he has came through quite a few times without trying to draw the foul. But from the last year and this year, when I think of Billups at the end of games, I think of him jumping into someone, and I can just pcture him falling backwards. That's not a good strategy to do. Maybe once or twice, but he deos that way too much. He's done it 2 or 3 times the last week or two. He's a good actor and can make it look like it was a foul whether there was some contact, or none at all. But he shouldn't be putting the game in the hands of the officials. It just gives you guys reason to complain, which is not right when he does it that much. Again, every once in a while is fine, if the surroundings are right. But my lasting impression of him is drawing a foul at the end, and that's not a smart thing to do in any way.
 

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Originally posted by <b>q</b>!

Ya, he has came through quite a few times without trying to draw the foul. But from the last year and this year, when I think of Billups at the end of games, I think of him jumping into someone, and I can just pcture him falling backwards. That's not a good strategy to do. Maybe once or twice, but he deos that way too much. He's done it 2 or 3 times the last week or two. He's a good actor and can make it look like it was a foul whether there was some contact, or none at all. But he shouldn't be putting the game in the hands of the officials. It just gives you guys reason to complain, which is not right when he does it that much. Again, every once in a while is fine, if the surroundings are right. But my lasting impression of him is drawing a foul at the end, and that's not a smart thing to do in any way.
Try remembering the 13 points he had in the last 3 minutes against San Antonio, or the cluth three he hit in Boston, the two GW FT's against Memphis, or the big threes he hit in Miami... all these in the past week. He saves us a lot more than he doesn't.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!


Try remembering the 13 points he had in the last 3 minutes against San Antonio, or the cluth three he hit in Boston, the two GW FT's against Memphis, or the big threes he hit in Miami... all these in the past week. He saves us a lot more than he doesn't.
I know that he comes through alot of times. But I think he relies on the refs WAY too much. I'm not saying all the time he does, but it seems to me that almost every other close game of the Pistons that I see, he does that. It might or might not acutally be that often, but either way, he needs to rely on his skills, and if he doesn't think they're good enough(therefor puting the game in the refs hands) give the ball to someone else.
 

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What comes to mind first is the three attempt versus the Nets in the playoffs in which Billups went at Kidd on the shot and Kidd stood there with his hands up, resulting in a no-call which cost the Pistons the game.
 

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That's really the only time he's tried to draw contact on the last play. He gets involved in a lot of physical plays at the end of games, but that's just the way he plays.

Plus there is the fact that the Pistons play so many close games you're going to see just about everything from him in terms of end game scenarios. 5 times this week alone he's had to try to either win the game or tie it up on a final possession so it's natural there will be some controversial plays.
 

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The problem with trying to draw contact particularly yesterday is that the refs weren't calling that all game. Z drew contact repeatedly but was never bailed out by the refs. They were just letting the guys play.
 

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?? Z got bailed out all night against Elden.

And Chauncey didn't even really try to draw contact, he was trying to get a jumper off with his feet crossed after a pivot and over a guy who was already airborn so naturally the shot looked contorted.
 

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unless your name is reggie miller, then i suggest your main perogative should be to make the shot. youve gotta think that if a bunch of people sharing some of their knowledge on a basketball forum have noticed this flaw in his game, then coaches and players around the league should be just as informed, and if the time came for him to take a last second shot and decides to try and draw contact and in turn just throws up an air ball, alot of his praise for being a clutch shooter is gonna be in jeopardy of going right out the window.
 

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I just ran across an intersting thing called the "Nestle Crunch Time Stat". (I'm not putting too much stock in this btw)

What it is:
Nestle Crunch Time Rating
The Nestle Crunch Time Stat was designed by the NBA and Nestle to provide an innovative way to measure "Crunch Time" performances -- players who step up when the game is on the line! A formula has been created to measure the top Nestle Crunch Time players, and the formula kicks in when Crunch Time kicks in -- the last two minutes and all overtime periods.

Here's the formula:

(PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO) + 4 points if their team wins

Note: If the point differential of the game is greater than 15 points at the two-minute mark, only the losing team's players will be eligible to earn Crunch Time points

http://www.nba.com/features/nestle/crunch_time_stat.html

Guess who is on top? That's right Billups... while he does sometimes fail at making the big shot or in this case get the shot off, he performs well at the right time. In his case you take the good with the bad.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
That's really the only time he's tried to draw contact on the last play. He gets involved in a lot of physical plays at the end of games, but that's just the way he plays.

Plus there is the fact that the Pistons play so many close games you're going to see just about everything from him in terms of end game scenarios. 5 times this week alone he's had to try to either win the game or tie it up on a final possession so it's natural there will be some controversial plays.
The Wolves play a close game almost every game, and there's hardly ever a game that's pretty much decided on if the refs gonna call it a foul or not. I've seen Billups in that kind of play 3 times the past week or two. Wolves, Grizzlies, and Cleveland. He wasn't really going for contact in the Wolves game, and not really that much in the Grizzlies game, but I see him do it way too much. I'm not doubting that he's a good player in clutch situations, because he obviously is. I'd just like to see him rely on himself rather than the refs as often as he does.

Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
I believe he led the league in those crunch time stats last year too.
KG led the league in that stat last year, I think he led it pretty much the whole season last year too.
 

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Originally posted by <b>q</b>!

The Wolves play a close game almost every game, and there's hardly ever a game that's pretty much decided on if the refs gonna call it a foul or not. I've seen Billups in that kind of play 3 times the past week or two. Wolves, Grizzlies, and Cleveland. He wasn't really going for contact in the Wolves game, and not really that much in the Grizzlies game, but I see him do it way too much. I'm not doubting that he's a good player in clutch situations, because he obviously is. I'd just like to see him rely on himself rather than the refs as often as he does.
The Minnesota game he wasn't going for contact at all, he was trying to make the shot, and he did.

The Grizzlies game he didn't lean for contact at all either, Watson made contact with his arm on the way up but it didn't really affect his shot, that play was totally on the refs, not Chauncey.

In the Cleveland game he had 2 seconds to catch and shoot over two defenders, he leaned to try to get a better look but didn't initiate any contact and never once looked at the ref for a foul.

I think it's more a case of people thinking they see something that isn't really there more than anything else. Remember this is the guy who twice last year pulled up for game winning three pointers win his team down 1 point or tied. He's looking to shoot the ball. He doesn't need charity from the refs and as someone who has watched every game he's played the last 2 years, trust me when I say that is not his mentality at the end of games.

KG led the league in that stat last year, I think he led it pretty much the whole season last year too.
Yeah, I think you're right. I know Chauncey lead the league in game winning/tieing shots by a sizeable margin though.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
In the Cleveland game he had 2 seconds to catch and shoot over two defenders, he leaned to try to get a better look but didn't initiate any contact and never once looked at the ref for a foul.
eh, i think he kinda choked on that play. well not really, because mainly it was a hellacious defensive play. but billups walked of the court quietly because he knows he could have played that better. both cavs guys just flew at him knowing not to foul him and he leaned in for the contact instead of knocking down that shot.
 

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He was in a tough spot because with a little less than a second left Mcinnis jumped and Chauncey had no time to wait for him to come down before shooting, if he would have went straight up with his shot it would have been blocked. His options were to basically lean or fade and he chose to lean, simple as that. Like you said, the D was solid and there was really nothing he could have done in that situation that would have resulted in a high percentage look.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!


The Minnesota game he wasn't going for contact at all, he was trying to make the shot, and he did.

The Grizzlies game he didn't lean for contact at all either, Watson made contact with his arm on the way up but it didn't really affect his shot, that play was totally on the refs, not Chauncey.

In the Cleveland game he had 2 seconds to catch and shoot over two defenders, he leaned to try to get a better look but didn't initiate any contact and never once looked at the ref for a foul.

I think it's more a case of people thinking they see something that isn't really there more than anything else. Remember this is the guy who twice last year pulled up for game winning three pointers win his team down 1 point or tied. He's looking to shoot the ball. He doesn't need charity from the refs and as someone who has watched every game he's played the last 2 years, trust me when I say that is not his mentality at the end of games.



Yeah, I think you're right. I know Chauncey lead the league in game winning/tieing shots by a sizeable margin though.
Um, I made a point to say in the MN game he wasn't really going for contact, so you didn't really need to repeat what I said. In the Cleveland game, just the way he looked as he was trying to throw up that shot, looked very very familiar to me, and I don't get to see a whole lot of Piston games. So if it stands out to me as much as it did, I think that means something. I'm just saying that I see him do it quite often, I'm sure you can give me even a bunch more of examples where he didn't, but I've seen him do it plentiful times. I'm not saying there was anything wrong with how Chauncey played in the Cleveland game, it's just that I've seen it quite a few times before, and it seems to me that he relies on that more than most, if not all, of the players in the league. That doesn't mean he always tries to get calls, but I think he does it way too often when he has clearly shown that he doesn't need to, because he can make tough shots.
 
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