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Kobe, MJ, or Lebron?

  • Kobe

    Votes: 23 27.1%
  • MJ

    Votes: 51 60.0%
  • Lebron

    Votes: 21 24.7%

  • Total voters
    85
4761 - 4780 of 4784 Posts

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X-Mas Taker
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Dude, cause i think you are a reasonable (sp?) poster, i'm not gonna say right away you are out of your freaking mind.

First: if you put Kobe in he "10-20" range, please name 15 players who were greater than Kobe Bryant. I dare you.

Second: It's a given Jordan has a resume for the top spot. Please tell me what is Lebron's "resume" for said spot. And after you realize you can't do it, please tell me Lebron's "resume" for Top-5.
well since I put him In the 10-20 range I really only have to name 10 but I feel it totally comes down to your criteria .

if its peak level of play he's closer to 20 if you make longevity of greatness a big factor obviously he comes closer to 10.

but there is a top echelon of players he simply isn't in.

wilt
Russell
kareem
Michael Jordan
LeBron


then you have
shaq
Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson(averaged a triple double over the course of 5 years)
Durant
magic(3 time mvp)
bird(3 time mvp in consecutive years 84-86)
curry
Duncan
moses Malone(3 time mvp when kareem , bird and magic running around)

(that's 14)

players who at their best have clearly been a notch above kobe's best at some point in their career.

kobe is to me in the next group with
wade
i.thomas
McHale
west
Baylor
dr. j
chris paul
westbrook
david robinson
garnett
pippen
barkley
iverson
karl Malone

great players some of whom you can make a very good argument that they belong higher but I just don't see it that way.

people have different ways of evaluating and what's more important to them to be sure .

but I saw kobe as a very good defender , occasionally a lockdown defender an excellent scorer who was slightly above average efficiency often to the detriment of the team who at times had much more efficient options to go to and kobe chose not to pass more often than he should have

not the best teammate who often put himself ahead of the team

he was usually clutch a good passer when he chose to do it and a good rebounder and a very physical player .

as for LeBron's resume for the top spot I don't think he has it I strongly believe that spot belongs to wilt chamberlain no one has ever forced so many changes upon the league with his mere presence because the league knew if it didn't the games would be less competitive add to that he was still the most dominant player of his time ....its a double edged sword for Jordan because the league actually changed a few rules to help him out.

Jordan was more clutch than LeBron but if you are going to judge them solely by their skills LeBron wins , physically capable of playing all 5 positions on both sides of the ball and capable of being a ball dominant scorer while keeping his teammates involved something generally only great point guards can do

Jordan on the other hand needed a guy like pippen and another team oriented ballhandler whether it was a point guard or ron harper or a guy like toni kukoc to keep everyone involved .

it makes LeBron the easier guy to build around , he's had seasons where he was a better rebounder , passer , while scoring at a significantly more efficient clip than Jordan has ever done (I dont believe any other player has shot 60% from 2 and 40% from 3 let alone doing it while avg. 25+ points) so LeBron needs less specialization around him.

LeBron has made it to the finals in 6 of his 12 seasons and is the odds on favorite for 7 in 13 mj 6 for 15
LeBron made the finals at age 22 with a starting line up of eric snow larry hughes, drew gooden and ilgaustas....only larry hughes averaged 12 or more points a game at 14.9

Jordan has never been past the 1st round in any season(5 in total) scottie pippen wasn't playing alongside him.
 

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well since I put him In the 10-20 range I really only have to name 10 but I feel it totally comes down to your criteria .

if its peak level of play he's closer to 20 if you make longevity of greatness a big factor obviously he comes closer to 10.

but there is a top echelon of players he simply isn't in.

wilt
Russell
kareem
Michael Jordan
LeBron


then you have
shaq
Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson(averaged a triple double over the course of 5 years)
Durant
magic(3 time mvp)
bird(3 time mvp in consecutive years 84-86)
curry
Duncan
moses Malone(3 time mvp when kareem , bird and magic running around)

(that's 14)

players who at their best have clearly been a notch above kobe's best at some point in their career.

kobe is to me in the next group with
wade
i.thomas
McHale
west
Baylor
dr. j
chris paul
westbrook
david robinson
garnett
pippen
barkley
iverson
karl Malone

great players some of whom you can make a very good argument that they belong higher but I just don't see it that way.

people have different ways of evaluating and what's more important to them to be sure .

but I saw kobe as a very good defender , occasionally a lockdown defender an excellent scorer who was slightly above average efficiency often to the detriment of the team who at times had much more efficient options to go to and kobe chose not to pass more often than he should have

not the best teammate who often put himself ahead of the team

he was usually clutch a good passer when he chose to do it and a good rebounder and a very physical player .

as for LeBron's resume for the top spot I don't think he has it I strongly believe that spot belongs to wilt chamberlain no one has ever forced so many changes upon the league with his mere presence because the league knew if it didn't the games would be less competitive add to that he was still the most dominant player of his time ....its a double edged sword for Jordan because the league actually changed a few rules to help him out.

Jordan was more clutch than LeBron but if you are going to judge them solely by their skills LeBron wins , physically capable of playing all 5 positions on both sides of the ball and capable of being a ball dominant scorer while keeping his teammates involved something generally only great point guards can do

Jordan on the other hand needed a guy like pippen and another team oriented ballhandler whether it was a point guard or ron harper or a guy like toni kukoc to keep everyone involved .

it makes LeBron the easier guy to build around , he's had seasons where he was a better rebounder , passer , while scoring at a significantly more efficient clip than Jordan has ever done (I dont believe any other player has shot 60% from 2 and 40% from 3 let alone doing it while avg. 25+ points) so LeBron needs less specialization around him.

LeBron has made it to the finals in 6 of his 12 seasons and is the odds on favorite for 7 in 13 mj 6 for 15
LeBron made the finals at age 22 with a starting line up of eric snow larry hughes, drew gooden and ilgaustas....only larry hughes averaged 12 or more points a game at 14.9

Jordan has never been past the 1st round in any season(5 in total) scottie pippen wasn't playing alongside him.
Sorry but since i'm curious too, no where does it say the resume for LeBron to being in the top spot or in the top 5. Because based off of skills and resume, I have him in the top 10 at the very bottom. With Isiah Thomas at 11, LeBron is slowing down at only 31. He won't age the way Kobe did because he is so much heavier and doesn't have the offensive skills to do so. These next few years I feel will be important for LeBron's spot to either move up, stay put, or leave the 10th spot all together.
 

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I don't rally see how kobe gets in a discussion with LeBron or Jordan for greatness.

statistically he doesn't come close and he's played on some of the most stacked teams in the past 20 years .

as a teammate he has actually driven good teammates away and is blamed for the 2003-04 team's self destruction in the finals

which is not to say he hasn't ben a great player but there is a level of difference when discussing their place in the history of the game.

Kobe is basically in the 10-20 range while LeBron and MJ have resumes capable of top 5 and even the top spot.
Thats what im saying...Like when you think of Lebron is all playoff games he has won. All the Washington games. The Detroit game in 07, the game against boston in 08 when PP and james had over 40. The series against Orlando were Lebron average 38 9 and 9. And thats not even the championship seasons. The game against Pacers in 2012 with Wade, Game 6 against Boston on the road in 2012. Where it was do or die for the Heat. Then his finals performance again OKC. Game 7 against the Spurs. And lastly the whole 2015 playoffs.


Lebrons resume is so much better than Kobes is digusting.
 

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well since I put him In the 10-20 range I really only have to name 10 but I feel it totally comes down to your criteria .

if its peak level of play he's closer to 20 if you make longevity of greatness a big factor obviously he comes closer to 10.
If you say player X is at the 10-20 range you are saying he can be #11 or #19 , no?

I understand the "criteria" aspect. What is YOURS, though?

For argument's sake, let's put them all (criteria) together: peak level, longevity, offensive prowess, defensive prowess, individual achievments, team achievments, leadership/untangibles, clutch play, you name it.

As far as i can see it, there's only one aspect of the game Kobe didn't excell at, compared to the other great players in the discussion on all-time rankings: he wasn't a very efficient scorer.
There's also the fact that he won 3 championships as the second best player on the team.

That being said, he has it all: 5 championships, 1 MVP, multiple All-Nba selections on BOTH teams, perennial one of the top scorers in the league.

but there is a top echelon of players he simply isn't in.

wilt
Russell
kareem
Michael Jordan
LeBron
I agree there's a "Sacred Four" that nor Kobe nor any other current player can touch TO THIS DATE: but Magic's there, not Lebron James,

then you have
shaq
Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson(averaged a triple double over the course of 5 years)
Durant
magic(3 time mvp)
bird(3 time mvp in consecutive years 84-86)
curry
Duncan
moses Malone(3 time mvp when kareem , bird and magic running around)
(that's 14)
This is where we disagree, Kobe's "resume" is greater than Oscar's (great stats, never won). It's better than Olajuwon's and Moses's (ALL criteria considered. This players could have had a better peak (i'm sure they did) but didn't win as concistently as Kobe. Kobe was a better defensive player than Moses and a better offensive player than Hakeem.

Nor Durant, nor Lebron nor Curry have TILL THIS DATE greater careers than Kobe.

Obviously, i'll give you Bird, Duncan and Shaq.

That's seven.

I'm not saying i have Kobe as the sure-fire #8 player of all-time. I am saying that, all criteria considered, Kobe is arguable the 8th greatest player of all-time. Definately not on the 10-20 range.

players who at their best have clearly been a notch above kobe's best at some point in their career.
You are talking peak level of play. that's one of the criterias, but not the be-all-end-all. Unless you will defend Shaq as the GOAT.

kobe is to me in the next group with
wade
i.thomas
McHale
west
Baylor
dr. j
chris paul
westbrook
david robinson
garnett
pippen
barkley
iverson
karl Malone
I'm absolutely baffled by this. Astonished, really.
Do you really think so little of Kobe Bryant you see him as a comparable player to Allen freaking Iverson? To a guy that at age 30 was no longer a top player in the league in Wade? To a second-fiddle (arguably the greatest, but) player like Pippen?
Of all the players you listed here i'd say only Karl Malone can even be in the discussion...

great players some of whom you can make a very good argument that they belong higher but I just don't see it that way.
Not really, no.

people have different ways of evaluating and what's more important to them to be sure .

but I saw kobe as a very good defender , occasionally a lockdown defender an excellent scorer who was slightly above average efficiency often to the detriment of the team who at times had much more efficient options to go to and kobe chose not to pass more often than he should have

not the best teammate who often put himself ahead of the team

he was usually clutch a good passer when he chose to do it and a good rebounder and a very physical player .
This is interesting...
So Kobe was a very good defender AND an excelent scorer and you have him in the midst of non-defenders (relativelyspeaking) like Isiah, Baylor, Iverson, Paul, Dr, J, etc, who were also worse scorers than him? Doesn't compute.

All that's left is your percieved notion that Kobe was selfish as a player and teammate? Do you put that much clout on it, considering Kobe went to 7 NBA Finals as the best or second best player in the team? Is that how "detrimental" he was?
How unselfish and good teammates were players like Larry Bird, Michael Jordan (ballhogg, punched teammates), Kareem (aloof, never a team leader), Lebron (got coaches fired), Barkley (soured all Philadelphians), Shaq (lazy-ass) and others?

as for LeBron's resume for the top spot I don't think he has it I strongly believe that spot belongs to wilt chamberlain no one has ever forced so many changes upon the league with his mere presence because the league knew if it didn't the games would be less competitive add to that he was still the most dominant player of his time ....its a double edged sword for Jordan because the league actually changed a few rules to help him out.
I agree with Wilt.

Jordan was more clutch than LeBron but if you are going to judge them solely by their skills LeBron wins , physically capable of playing all 5 positions on both sides of the ball and capable of being a ball dominant scorer while keeping his teammates involved something generally only great point guards can do
On "skills" alone Pistol Pete would be in GOAT contention and Shaq wouldn't be a Top-50 player.
What matters is PRODUCTION. Wtf does it matter if a player can play 5 positions or not? Unless said player excells in all of them. And Lebron obviously didn't/doesn't. Nor Jordan, for that matter. Nor even Magic Johnson!

Jordan on the other hand needed a guy like pippen and another team oriented ballhandler whether it was a point guard or ron harper or a guy like toni kukoc to keep everyone involved .

it makes LeBron the easier guy to build around , he's had seasons where he was a better rebounder , passer , while scoring at a significantly more efficient clip than Jordan has ever done (I dont believe any other player has shot 60% from 2 and 40% from 3 let alone doing it while avg. 25+ points) so LeBron needs less specialization around him.
This is very, very strange. So Jordan needed Pippen and other role players. But Lebron (the "easier guy to build around") needed to jump ship to play with Wade and Bosh and, later, Irving and Love to try and win after he failed?
What happened to the team that was built around Lebron James? Imploded after he quit (after 3 straight seasons not making it to the Finals).

LeBron has made it to the finals in 6 of his 12 seasons and is the odds on favorite for 7 in 13 mj 6 for 15
LeBron made the finals at age 22 with a starting line up of eric snow larry hughes, drew gooden and ilgaustas....only larry hughes averaged 12 or more points a game at 14.9

Jordan has never been past the 1st round in any season(5 in total) scottie pippen wasn't playing alongside him.
You DO know it's a purely situational reality, don't you? An Eastern team with Lebron James and adequate role players has a very good chance to make it to the Finals, considering the Eastern conference is not very competitive at the top. A team with Lebron James and two other All-Nbas WILL make the Finals EVERY season in the East.
After the Pierce/KG/Allen Celtics (who were NOT the Bird-Celtics or the Bad Boys Pistons) who were there to stop a team with Lebron James to make it to the Finals? what happened when a team with Lebron James and role players made it to the Finals and faced a top team in the league?

You're a very strange evaluator (sp?) of talent, bro.
 

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Look at your favorite team, now back to mine, mine
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The better player I still feel is Kobe Bryant, he was a better offensive player
Was he?

LeBron has always been a much more efficient player, on top of being leagues above Kobe when it came to getting his teammates involved. LeBron always had a much more positive offensive impact on his team than Kobe ever did.

I won't deny that Kobe was a better shooter on top of being a much better off the ball player, but LeBron at this point in his career has proven himself to be a much bigger difference maker on offense than Kobe ever did at any point in his career.

better defensively
No he wasn't.

Don't let Kobe's all defense team selections fool you, because, according to stats, he usually wasn't all that great of a defender. He was a terrific one on one defender. When it comes to team defense though, LeBron is in another league on top of being a great man to man defender when he wants to be, and he's got a list of people on his resume that he's shut down in the playoffs.

and you could go to him with the game on the line.
You could also go to Lebron with the game on the line.

It's no secret that there were some things Kobe excelled at and was obviously better at. In the end, with all things considered, and at their peaks, LeBron was better at both ends of the floor on top of being a better rebounder and a much better teammate.
 

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Look at your favorite team, now back to mine, mine
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Sorry but since i'm curious too, no where does it say the resume for LeBron to being in the top spot or in the top 5. Because based off of skills and resume, I have him in the top 10 at the very bottom. With Isiah Thomas at 11, LeBron is slowing down at only 31. He won't age the way Kobe did because he is so much heavier and doesn't have the offensive skills to do so. These next few years I feel will be important for LeBron's spot to either move up, stay put, or leave the 10th spot all together.
There's a lot on his resume to suggest he's a top five all time player. But we do have to see how the rest of his career shapes up. I'll be shocked if he doesn't average somewhere in the 22-27 PPG range in the next three-four years.
 

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X-Mas Taker
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If you say player X is at the 10-20 range you are saying he can be [URL=http://www.basketballforum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 1[/URL] or [URL=http://www.basketballforum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 9[/URL] , no?

I understand the "criteria" aspect. What is YOURS, though?

For argument's sake, let's put them all (criteria) together: peak level, longevity, offensive prowess, defensive prowess, individual achievments, team achievments, leadership/untangibles, clutch play, you name it.

As far as i can see it, there's only one aspect of the game Kobe didn't excell at, compared to the other great players in the discussion on all-time rankings: he wasn't a very efficient scorer.
There's also the fact that he won 3 championships as the second best player on the team.

That being said, he has it all: 5 championships, 1 MVP, multiple All-Nba selections on BOTH teams, perennial one of the top scorers in the league.



I agree there's a "Sacred Four" that nor Kobe nor any other current player can touch TO THIS DATE: but Magic's there, not Lebron James,
if magic were drafted by a less legendary franchise like the bulls (who lost the coin flip for magic) do you honestly believe Johnson would be so esteemed ?

I find it hard to believe ....it makes his "resume" pure luck for the 1st half of his career because he got drafted by a team that had not just kareem but a GM that fleeced the cavs not once but twice for the #1 overall pick(getting worthy as well) a HOF coach in riley and host of other good players.

in reality LeBron was better on both sides of the ball than Johnson




This is where we disagree, Kobe's "resume" is greater than Oscar's (great stats, never won). It's better than Olajuwon's and Moses's (ALL criteria considered. This players could have had a better peak (i'm sure they did) but didn't win as concistently as Kobe. Kobe was a better defensive player than Moses and a better offensive player than Hakeem.

Nor Durant, nor Lebron nor Curry have TILL THIS DATE greater careers than Kobe.

Obviously, i'll give you Bird, Duncan and Shaq.

That's seven.
big O won with kareem

Olajuwon was the best big of his era as kareem faded before shaq entered his prime, ...the only true window he had he was incredibly successful.

moses Malone was at his best a better defender than kobe , he was also all nba 1st team defense in a year when a number of big time defensive centers were around (82-83) (2nd team 78-79)and obviously a good defensive center is way more impactful than a similarly skillful 2 guard.

as far as current players in their prime such as curry Durant and LeBron , its important to note kobe's main attribute for greatness is as a scorer , in comparison kobe's scoring is not so eye popping

kobe is middling in fg%
doesn't draw an excessive amount of fouls
mediocre for his time for a 2 guard as a 3 point shooter

do you realize for a guy who made his career shooting 2 pointers kobe has only shot .500 from 2 1 time in his career (.510 in 12-13)

wade for comparison's sake has done it 8 times in what is now 13 seasons vs kobe's 1 in 20

curry right now is shooting .571 from 2
Durant right now is shooting .565 from 2
LeBron right now is shooting .559 from 2

and all 3 of them shoot 3's better than kobe , in fact kobe only shoots .330 for his career from 3 only a smidge higher than Jordan .327 who history knows as someone who didn't excel at 3 point shooting.


I'm not saying i have Kobe as the sure-fire #8 player of all-time. I am saying that, all criteria considered, Kobe is arguable the 8th greatest player of all-time. Definately not on the 10-20 range.

You are talking peak level of play. that's one of the criterias, but not the be-all-end-all. Unless you will defend Shaq as the GOAT.
he really is not a top 10 guy ....if his original team the hornets had kept him or the nets who wanted to draft him but he threatened to go to college if a team he didn't want to play for drafted him, can you honestly say we would be debating this ?

he is another guy who lucked into a resume his game would never have reached on its merits.


peak level of play is by far the most important and the longer that level is kept up the more important it is

surviving and thriving are 2 very separate things.

shaq at his best still doesn't qualify

I'm absolutely baffled by this. Astonished, really.
Do you really think so little of Kobe Bryant you see him as a comparable player to Allen freaking Iverson? To a guy that at age 30 was no longer a top player in the league in Wade? To a second-fiddle (arguably the greatest, but) player like Pippen?
Of all the players you listed here i'd say only Karl Malone can even be in the discussion...
its funny because I don't think you realize kobe and wade are similar in terms of greatness great scorers, very good defending 2 guards who lived off of 2's when the majority of shooting guards were good from 3 who each led teams to titles and played 2nd fiddle to titles

kobe
25.1 pts 5.3 reb. 4.7ast 1.5 st 0.5 bl
.448 fg .479 2pointers .330 from 3 .836 from the ft line

wade
23.8 pts 4.8 reb. 5.8ast. 1.7 st. 0.9 bl
.488 fg .508 from 2 .286 from 3 .766 from the ft line

advanced stats

kobe 22.9 PER ts% .550 obpm 4.5 dbpm -0.5 bpm 3.9

wade 23.8 PER ts% .562 obpm 4.4 dbpm 1.1 bpm5.5





This is interesting...
So Kobe was a very good defender AND an excelent scorer and you have him in the midst of non-defenders (relativelyspeaking) like Isiah, Baylor, Iverson, Paul, Dr, J, etc, who were also worse scorers than him? Doesn't compute.

All that's left is your percieved notion that Kobe was selfish as a player and teammate? Do you put that much clout on it, considering Kobe went to 7 NBA Finals as the best or second best player in the team? Is that how "detrimental" he was?
How unselfish and good teammates were players like Larry Bird, Michael Jordan (ballhogg, punched teammates), Kareem (aloof, never a team leader), Lebron (got coaches fired), Barkley (soured all Philadelphians), Shaq (lazy-ass) and others?
none of these guys are perfect players, there hasn't been one yet , however if you really want to get into how detrimental Kobe was to teams I suggest you read a few of the books written about the lakers during their championship runs.

that Kobe is on occasion a roadblock to success is indisputable from his low % "hero ball" to his rape allegations to his repeated antagonizing behavior to his teammates and coaches .

kobe definitely has been known to hurt as much as he help.

Jordan was a significantly more efficient scorer than kobe and add to that he according to phil Jackson listened to his coaches something kobe often does not do even after telling them he will.

kobe was his most problematic player ever and he had dennis rodman for 3 seasons

a player being a problem on occasion is a mistake , kobe wasn't making mistakes , its just who he was .




On "skills" alone Pistol Pete would be in GOAT contention and Shaq wouldn't be a Top-50 player.
What matters is PRODUCTION. Wtf does it matter if a player can play 5 positions or not? Unless said player excells in all of them. And Lebron obviously didn't/doesn't. Nor Jordan, for that matter. Nor even Magic Johnson!
production can be termed statistical accumulation in PER for career kobe is currently 23rd(22.94) and he may be 25th by the end of the season he could fall below west (22.89) and westbrook (22.84)

his best season PER wise is the 61st best season

arguments on production does not help you.


This is very, very strange. So Jordan needed Pippen and other role players. But Lebron (the "easier guy to build around") needed to jump ship to play with Wade and Bosh and, later, Irving and Love to try and win after he failed?
What happened to the team that was built around Lebron James? Imploded after he quit (after 3 straight seasons not making it to the Finals).
everybody needs help but how much help is needed to be successful

if you need so much help they would be successful without you how great can you really be ?

saying the heat imploded without james or mentioning the cavs were so bad without him they garnered the 1st pick in the draft 3 times in the 4 seasons he was gone doesn't make james look bad .

the heat weren't that bad without james their best player remaining suffered from a nearly deadly blood clots in his leg and now I believe they are leading their division they are a decent team without james



You DO know it's a purely situational reality, don't you? An Eastern team with Lebron James and adequate role players has a very good chance to make it to the Finals, considering the Eastern conference is not very competitive at the top. A team with Lebron James and two other All-Nbas WILL make the Finals EVERY season in the East.
After the Pierce/KG/Allen Celtics (who were NOT the Bird-Celtics or the Bad Boys Pistons) who were there to stop a team with Lebron James to make it to the Finals? what happened when a team with Lebron James and role players made it to the Finals and faced a top team in the league?

You're a very strange evaluator (sp?) of talent, bro.
no not at all I am very clear I put peak level of play as the most important factor the higher the peak for the longer period of time the better I don't care who you play for I do accept putting a player in better situations gives him better opportunities but that is really it .

you on the other hand seem to clearly want to make luck a big part of where they are placed in things. I just think you judge the player , while you make excuses about the world championship caliber teams played on the way to the finals I simply evaluate the job he did in getting by them.

i judge guys on what they and what they have to do it .
 

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Just some thoughts:

if magic were drafted by a less legendary franchise like the bulls (who lost the coin flip for magic) do you honestly believe Johnson would be so esteemed ?

I find it hard to believe ....it makes his "resume" pure luck for the 1st half of his career because he got drafted by a team that had not just kareem but a GM that fleeced the cavs not once but twice for the #1 overall pick(getting worthy as well) a HOF coach in riley and host of other good players.
I don't really understand this point.
Should Tim Duncan be criticized because he was drafted by an excellent organization, with an already established great player and with arguably the greatest coach ever?
What about Bill Russell, with the Celtics, Cousy and Sharman and Auerbach?

Secondly: Magic's impact was pretty obvious. Not only the Lakers won 13 more games with the same roster (plus Magic), he was the Finals MVP, after an astounding Game 6 wthout Kareem.
And it was Westhead at the helm.

big O won with kareem
You're right. My bad.

Olajuwon was the best big of his era as kareem faded before shaq entered his prime, ...the only true window he had he was incredibly successful.
Hakeem was a great player, no doubt. But he wasn't THAT successfull. Unless you want to ignore the 5 seasons his team went out in the first round or the other season they missed the playoffs. This before he won both championships.

moses Malone was at his best a better defender than kobe , he was also all nba 1st team defense in a year when a number of big time defensive centers were around (82-83) (2nd team 78-79)and obviously a good defensive center is way more impactful than a similarly skillful 2 guard.
Moses had 2 all-D selections in a miriad of seasons. Pales in comparison.

as far as current players in their prime such as curry Durant and LeBron , its important to note kobe's main attribute for greatness is as a scorer , in comparison kobe's scoring is not so eye popping

kobe is middling in fg%
doesn't draw an excessive amount of fouls
mediocre for his time for a 2 guard as a 3 point shooter

do you realize for a guy who made his career shooting 2 pointers kobe has only shot .500 from 2 1 time in his career (.510 in 12-13)

wade for comparison's sake has done it 8 times in what is now 13 seasons vs kobe's 1 in 20

curry right now is shooting .571 from 2
Durant right now is shooting .565 from 2
LeBron right now is shooting .559 from 2

and all 3 of them shoot 3's better than kobe , in fact kobe only shoots .330 for his career from 3 only a smidge higher than Jordan .327 who history knows as someone who didn't excel at 3 point shooting.
I'm well aware Kobe's weakness is his shooting efficiency. I've already stated it. But you were pairing him with Allen Iverson, for Christ sake!

he really is not a top 10 guy ....if his original team the hornets had kept him or the nets who wanted to draft him but he threatened to go to college if a team he didn't want to play for drafted him, can you honestly say we would be debating this ?
If, if, if.... Whose to say what would have happened?
If Magic started on the Bulls... If Kobe started on the Hornets.... If Jordan was selected by the Sixers, ad having to play with Moses and Dr. J, how many years would he have been a second-fiddle player? If Duncan started on the Grizzlies, would he ever win a championship? Etc., etc...

he is another guy who lucked into a resume his game would never have reached on its merits.
Huh... What do you think of Kobe's "game" from 2007-2008 till the 2009-2010 season?
In those 3 seasons alone didn't Kobe accomplish more than ALL of the players you paired him previously?

its funny because I don't think you realize kobe and wade are similar in terms of greatness great scorers, very good defending 2 guards who lived off of 2's when the majority of shooting guards were good from 3 who each led teams to titles and played 2nd fiddle to titles

kobe
25.1 pts 5.3 reb. 4.7ast 1.5 st 0.5 bl
.448 fg .479 2pointers .330 from 3 .836 from the ft line

wade
23.8 pts 4.8 reb. 5.8ast. 1.7 st. 0.9 bl
.488 fg .508 from 2 .286 from 3 .766 from the ft line

advanced stats

kobe 22.9 PER ts% .550 obpm 4.5 dbpm -0.5 bpm 3.9

wade 23.8 PER ts% .562 obpm 4.4 dbpm 1.1 bpm5.5
Such similar players. Yet one has 1 championship as the Franchis player. Other has 2. One has 2 championships as the second-fiddle. Other has 3. One has 1 Top-2 finish in scoring for a season. Other has 6. One has 3 all-D selections (second team). Other has 12. Etc., etc.
So... no. They are not comparable players.

none of these guys are perfect players, there hasn't been one yet , however if you really want to get into how detrimental Kobe was to teams I suggest you read a few of the books written about the lakers during their championship runs.
Would that include the books written by a coach who came back to coach Kobe sans-Shaq?

that Kobe is on occasion a roadblock to success is indisputable from his low % "hero ball" to his rape allegations to his repeated antagonizing behavior to his teammates and coaches .

kobe definitely has been known to hurt as much as he help.

Jordan was a significantly more efficient scorer than kobe and add to that he according to phil Jackson listened to his coaches something kobe often does not do even after telling them he will.

kobe was his most problematic player ever and he had dennis rodman for 3 seasons

a player being a problem on occasion is a mistake , kobe wasn't making mistakes , its just who he was .
This is all fine and dandy, BUT:
Magic got his coach fired.
Lebron got his coach fired.
Jordan punched teammates and got one teammate (Hodges) out of the team alltogether.
Shaq was lazy and provided bad example to his teammates.
Kareem wasn't liked by anyone;
Hakeem had his troubles with Rockets' brass.
Etc., etc..
Still, they won. Same with Kobe.

production can be termed statistical accumulation in PER for career kobe is currently 23rd(22.94) and he may be 25th by the end of the season he could fall below west (22.89) and westbrook (22.84)

his best season PER wise is the 61st best season

arguments on production does not help you.
Off course. That's why T-Mac, David Robinson, Chris Paul and Anthony Davis (all had a season over 30 PER or close) took the NBA by storm, right?
Stats don't tell the whole picture.

everybody needs help but how much help is needed to be successful

if you need so much help they would be successful without you how great can you really be ?

saying the heat imploded without james or mentioning the cavs were so bad without him they garnered the 1st pick in the draft 3 times in the 4 seasons he was gone doesn't make james look bad .

the heat weren't that bad without james their best player remaining suffered from a nearly deadly blood clots in his leg and now I believe they are leading their division they are a decent team without james
I was talking about Lebron's alleged hability to be "easier to build around"... We saw a team "built" around Lebron once, in his first stint with the Cavs. We know how that worked out. Since that, he has pursued joining stacked teams.
When the Lakers rebuilt the team around Kobe (although Kobe was in his prime - not the same regarding a rookie Lebron) it took them 4 years to get back on the Finals. Winning 2 championships the following 2 seasons. Simply amazing, considering Kobe is so detrimental to a team and is aparently "hard to build around"...
And no, i don't think Gasol was better than Wade nor Bynum better than Bosh.
 

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the dude has Durant listed ahead of Magic - why would you even bother with him? I would just give him up as a lost cause on an irving-esque scale right there
 

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X-Mas Taker
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the dude has Durant listed ahead of Magic - why would you even bother with him? I would just give him up as a lost cause on an irving-esque scale right there
those groups really were not in a literal order I thought it was clear I was ranking players in tiers, but you do realize he is 3rd all time in scoring average behind wilt and MJ?
 

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X-Mas Taker
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scoring average? GTFOH
if he retires today he is a 1st ballot hall of fame guy

if you are going to compare him to a guy known primarily as a scorer

and all of Durant's scoring numbers are better , not just how much he scores but also much more efficiently and even where (2 pointers, 3's, ft's)...and without a selfish label attached to him in the process .

you and your dismissive attitude needs to be explained
 

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he's 27, his average will go down as he exits his prime - at age 27 Wilt's scoring average would have been in the 40s per game - using KDs scoring average at age 27 to argue for hall entrance requires a dismissive response - that's not to say he doesn't have an argument but his current ppg is not part of it
 

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Lebron needs to be removed from the discussion. If not for hiding out in a pathetic conference his entire career, and jumping from super team to super team nobody would be talking about him being the GOAT. What do Lebron fans point too when touting his greatness? All those Finals appearances. What is it now? 8 in a row. How many would he have been too if he spent his entire career in the WC like Kobe? One? None?

He's the Floyd Mayweather of the NBA. Very carefully calculating a plan to maximize the best possible result. And even with that he has a pathetic Finals record.

BTW, Kareem Abdul Jabaar is the GOAT. Jordan and Kobe can't hold a candle to him.
 

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Will of Chilltown
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Lebron needs to be removed from the discussion. If not for hiding out in a pathetic conference his entire career, and jumping from super team to super team nobody would be talking about him being the GOAT. What do Lebron fans point too when touting his greatness? All those Finals appearances. What is it now? 8 in a row. How many would he have been too if he spent his entire career in the WC like Kobe? One? None?

He's the Floyd Mayweather of the NBA. Very carefully calculating a plan to maximize the best possible result. And even with that he has a pathetic Finals record.

BTW, Kareem Abdul Jabaar is the GOAT. Jordan and Kobe can't hold a candle to him.
If Lebron had the teammates Kobe and Jordan had. He wouldnt have to leave Cavs in the first place. Kobe LITERALLY had a player better than him for his first 3 rings. Shaq won finals MVP 3 times. There is not one player of all time in the NBA that would do that to Lebron.

Lebron beat the all might 73 win team coming from 3-1 down. Impossible? Nah, Lebron lead BOTH teams in every stat. He is without question, best of all time.

 

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