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Discussion Starter #1
John Stockton will be gone and he won't be replaced. Karl Malone will likely sign with a contender. The team will get absolutely nothing in return for these dudes. The only guys under contract for 2003-04 are: Greg Ostertag, Andrei Kirilenko, DeShawn Stevenson, John Amaechi, and Curtis Borchardt. I guess you may as well include Raul Lopez here, and probably Donyell Marshall gets re-signed, too. But what free agents will the Jazz be able to lure with their TON of cap room? Try Kenny Thomas, Kenny Anderson, and Steve Smith.

Fellers, here are your 2003-04 Utah Jazz, the worst team in the NBA:

PG Kenny Anderson--Raul Lopez
SG Steve Smith--DeShawn Stevenson
SF Andrei Kirilenko--Scott Padgett
PF Donyell Marshall--Kenny Thomas
C Greg Ostertag--Curtis Borchardt--John Amaechi

Who is this team's go-to guy? Donyell Marshall? Andrei Kirlenko? MAN! This team is TERRIBLE!

By the way--if you can give me a reason to believe that this ISN'T the fate of the Utah Jazz in about 13-14 months, I'd love to hear it! I just don't think any of the top free agents in the outstanding 2003 free agent class are going to be interested in coming to Utah--which means that the Jazz will have to throw their ton of cap room at mediocre veterans like Kenny Anderson, Steve Smith, and Kenny Thomas! UGH!
 

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Re: Stockton and Malone

Originally posted by robyg1974
John Stockton will be gone and he won't be replaced. Karl Malone will likely sign with a contender.
I am not so sure about that. Why would Stockton retire? Stockton may be 40 and lost a step or two but is still playing at a high level. His assists and steals are down slightly but so are his minutes. Other than that he he was right in line with his career stats. Other than his bonehead play when he fouled out at the end of Game five he dominated the Kings series. He controlled the tempo of the game and forced the Kings to play Jazz basketball instead of Kings basketball. If other Jazz players would have stepped up the Jazz would have won. If he stays healthy this year he could play another year or two. Why walk away from the money if you can still play?

Malone's situation is very unclear right now. His contract is up after 02-03 season. He will need to make a hard choice as to what is important to him. The four things to consider are loyalty, money, championship, and all-time scoring record. There is no option where he can fill all of these. Even discarding loyalty there is still no team where he will have a chance at the scoring record, get paid $$$ and contend for a championship. If he decides championship is most important he will lose any chance at scoring record and will probaly play for part/all of the mid level exception. This is a huge pay cut from close to $20M. I am not sure there is anyone who will pay him $$$ but there are some crazy organizations so who knows. I think that a run at the alltime scoring record is the most important to him now. Where can he go and be a #1 option? I think he stays with the Jazz at a reduced price but still a little more than market and makes a run at the scoring record.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Malone...

Well, yeah, you're right. Malone will have a big decision to make next July. Does he stay with the Stockton-less Jazz (sorry, I don't think there's ANY WAY he plays after next season), play for a lottery team, but be the #1 scoring option so he can eventually overtake Kareem as the #1 scorer of all time? Or does he sign with a contender for around $4-$5 mil/yr (think San Antonio, or Dallas, or the Nets) where he'll be a role player (but an IMPORTANT role player, do not doubt that for one second), but where he'll have a shot at a ring?

The decision Malone makes will really decide what his "legacy" will be. Re-signing with the Jazz, hanging around the league until he beats out Kareem, holding back this young team's development--sorry, Karl, don't expect to go down as one of the all-time greats if this is how you go out. But signing on with a contender, making a huge adjustment from go-to guy to sixth man, perhaps giving the team he joins that one final piece to the championship puzzle, going out a WINNER--well, he won't beat out Kareem this way, but who cares? And besides, who out there argues that Kareem is the best ever? NOBODY! And The Mailman was NEVER the player that Kareem was, NEVER! Record or no record, The Mailman will NEVER be considered one of the top ten (maybe not even top twenty) players in the history of the game! And he may even HURT his standing among the all-time greats by hanging around in Utah and gunning for Kareem!

You know?

So yeah, I am giving the dude the benefit of the doubt here--I'm saying that he takes off next summer. And that Stockton hangs 'em up, too. And that the team fails to lure A SINGLE ONE of the top free agents next summer. And that it is forced to sign unwanted veterans like Kenny Anderson and Steve Smith and Kenny Thomas. And that the go-to guy for the Utah Jazz will be DONYELL MARSHALL (assuming he re-signs with the team this summer, which he probably will).

I hope I don't have to tell you that, if yr go-to guy is DONYELL MARSHALL (who I like, but come ON, the dude isn't a go-to guy), well, you're going to go about 15-67, that's all there is to it. You DO know that, RIGHT? Take one more look at the 2003-04 Utah Jazz, the worst team in the NBA:

PG Kenny Anderson--Raul Lopez
SG Steve Smith--DeShawn Stevenson
SF Andrei Kirilenko--Scott Padgett
PF Donyell Marshall--Kenny Thomas
C Greg Ostertag--Curtis Borchardt--John Amaechi

GOD! They SUCK! Dear LORD do they SUCK!
 

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Why don't you think Stockton will return?

I agree about Malone. I think he should win a championship. As long as he doesn't play for the Lakers I have no problem with him moving on. It would be great if he went to Sac, Dallas, SA or NJ and was a major part of dethrone the hated Lakers.

Talent wise I think Marshall can be a #1 option if he can stay healthy. I am not convinced he can stay healthy if he takes the minutes and the pounding of being the #1 option.

I not sure it will be as bad as you say but it would be lottery for sure.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Dude!

Why don't I think John Stockton will return? Why do you think? What incentive does Stockton have to keep on playing if Malone leaves (or even if Malone stays)? I mean, sure, you're right, he's still a very good player, he had a very good season last year, despite his age. But Stockton's not interested in sticking around just for the sake of sticking around. He won't be back after next season--he's not interested in feeding Donyell Marshall and Kenny Thomas en route to a lottery-bound season.

And as for Donyell Marshall being a #1 option: YOU MUST BE JOKING! Would there be a worse #1 option in the NBA? NOPE! Don't get me wrong, I like Donyell Marshall, he's a nice player, but he's not a go-to guy. And if he IS a go-to guy, well, you're looking at the worst team in the NBA. I mean, who is a worse #1 option in 2003-04? Richard Hamilton in Washington? Dajuan Wagner in Cleveland? Antawn Jamison in Golden State? Somebody for the Nuggets? I don't know, dude--I'd say that Donyell would be the worst go-to guy in the league.

2003-04 Utah Jazz: 15-67. If you don't think that this team is the worst team in the NBA by FAR, you're going to have to explain how and why. If you don't think that the lineup below is their 2003-04 lineup--

PG Kenny Anderson--Raul Lopez
SG Steve Smith--DeShawn Stevenson
SF Andrei Kirilenko--Scott Padgett
PF Donyell Marshall--Kenny Thomas
C Greg Ostertag--Curtis Borchardt--John Amaechi

--again, like I was saying, if THAT'S not the kind of starting lineup that Jazz fans will be forced to look at in November 2003, you're going to have to explain to me how and why! That's all there is to it!
 

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Malone: Karl Malone is one of the best in history. Sure he never won a championship but point me to another power forward in NBA history whos been so consistent for so long. Plus he plays/played in a very competitive era. By you saying Malone is not even possibly in the top 20 of all time just shows what a complete xxxxx<b><font color=blue>(We do NOT call posters names here. Please do NOT do that again. Thank you for your cooperation. TR, administrator) </b></font>you are. Then again, how much can I expect from a guy with AI as his avatar.

Jazz being the worst team: The Jazz do look like they have a tough stretch ahead.. Possibly the post Larry-Bird Celtics. But they do have talents in Kirilenko and Stevenson. Lopez has yet to be evaluated, but he's young and fast. Of course, they will probalby endure a few losing seasons, but I think it is time for Malone to move on. He is hindering the development of younger players and his salary hit is huge. The best case scenario would be to trade Malone for younger talent but it remains to be seen if anyone is gonna take his contract.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Malone... again...

You know what, if all you look at is career statistics, sure, Karl Malone is one of the top 10 players of all time, no doubt. But statistics lie, do you not know that?

Karl Malone can't hold Kevin McHale's jock. I'm not being some dumb Celtics fan, that's just the truth. I could come up with quite a few guys from the past 20 years who are better than Malone. And I LIKE MALONE! He's just not NEARLY as good as his career stats--the dude will finish second all-time in points scored, for the love of god--indicate, that's all.

But I'm not going to sit here and argue with you, believe what you want to believe.
 

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Thats bold.

I think if Malone played on those teams that McHale played on you would be singing a different tune.

McHale was good but Malone is better.

If you want to say he is not as good as his career stats, I agree, but McHale was not as good as the Celtics teams made him either.

And I hate Malone.
 

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Malone as a Free Agent

I think it's very possible that Malone will sign with the Lakers for the Mid-Level Exemption. He signs with them, and he finally gets his Champinoship ring. Stockton should go there too, instead of retiring. He'll be too old to start but can be their backup PG and also get his ring.

By the way, I'm not a Lakers fan.
 

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Originally posted by sundevilPAT
DSteve will shape up and play good for the jazz, he just needs to stay outta trouble
He had only that one highly publicized problem. What he really needs is consistant effort and a jump shot. He willprobably get lots of minutes this year.
 

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Why would Kenny Anderson or Steve Smith even consider going to "the worst team in 03-04" at such a late time in their career?
Realistically Utah is not the most attractive place to attact free agents.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Originally posted by DetBNyce
Why would Kenny Anderson or Steve Smith even consider going to "the worst team in 03-04" at such a late time in their career?
Realistically Utah is not the most attractive place to attact free agents.
Which is exactly why such unattractive free agents will realistically end up signing on with such an unattractive team. If the Jazz swing and miss at top free agent after top free agent after top free agent next summer, well, they're going to have to sign guys like Steve Smith and Kenny Anderson, neither of whom will get any interest from a serious contender next offseason!

And guys, about Deshawn Stevenson: THAT GUY SUUUUUUUCKS. He'll be out of the league PERMANENTLY within 2-3 years.
 

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Noone is coming to Utah, I don't care what you say. I know Steve Smith and he is not going to play for Utah. Also if they know they are going to be the weakest team in the league and have no shot at a championship why would they use it on over the hill type players, an maybe not use it on some young talent like undrafted free agents hoping to get some overlooked talent. If you haven't noticed NBA contract are guaranteed, meaning you have to pay it no matter what unless of course there is a major injury or somehting but that a different story. Giving Smith and Anderson will only further the rebuilding process by giving money to players they have no use for.
 

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This is one of the "funnier" threads I've seen in awhile. ;)

After the Jazz lose Stockton & Malone, they'll suffer the identical fate as most championship teams, ironically.

Philly, after Moses & Dr. J.

Celtics after Larry & Parish.

Pistons after Zeke, Rodman, and Joe. D.

Lakers after Magic & company.

Bulls, after Jordan & Pippen.

Rockets after Hakeem got old & finally left.

That is interesting, if you get my drift.
 

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I am a Chicago fan and stopped by the Utah site because I am curious about Marshall. It is interesting that over on the Chicago board, people are really hyped on the rumor that the Bulls are making Marshall an offer. Maybe that is a sign that we are the worst NBA team (oh yeah---we have been for a while). But we will be glad to have him.

I agree with most of the consensus on this thread -- Stockton will be gone and Malone would probably be best off leaving Utah to play for a contender.

The only major disagreement I have is with the last post. Utah doesn't belong in that list of championship teams, because it has never won, and never will win a championship. Comparing Utah to the teams that reached the top is disrespectful to the teams that won the championships. Nobody lists the Minn. Vikings or Buffalo Bills among lists of championship teams. Likewise Utah.
 

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The only major disagreement I have is with the last post. Utah doesn't belong in that list of championship teams, because it has never won, and never will win a championship. Comparing Utah to the teams that reached the top is disrespectful to the teams that won the championships. Nobody lists the Minn. Vikings or Buffalo Bills among lists of championship teams. Likewise Utah.
That's why TheRifleman writes ironically :
After the Jazz lose Stockton & Malone, they'll suffer the identical fate as most championship teams, ironically.
 

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The comparison of the impending downfall of the Jazz to the fall of championship teams is not, strictly speaking, "ironic." As you well know, "irony" is 1 - a statement in which the intended meaning of words used is the opposite of the usual and customary meaning or 2 - an event which occurs with the result opposite of that which is usual and expected (often highlighted by a parallel comparison to the occurence of a similar event in which the expected outcome does come to pass). In the posted example, there is a parallel comparison, but the result of each example is expected.

Since the loss of any team's two best players will usually result in a plummet in the standings - including a good, but not great team like the Jazz (see for example the 70's Bulls with Sloan and Van Lier -- oh yeah, and Tom Boerwinkle), there is no irony in comparing the fate of the Jazz with the fate of championship teams.

However, "Ironic" or not, I stand by my assertion that the woulda-shoulda-coulda (but didn't) Jazz shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as true champions.

Sorry for the rant. I would not normally address the use of irony on a basketball board, but the previous post jumped on me.
 

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Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
As you well know, "irony" is 1 - a statement in which the intended meaning of words used is the opposite of the usual and customary meaning or 2 - an event which occurs with the result opposite of that which is usual and expected (often highlighted by a parallel comparison to the occurence of a similar event in which the expected outcome does come to pass).
It's IRONIC by definition #2. You just need to define 'not winning a championship' as an event. The Jazz never won a championship but will suffer the same fate as past champions.

BTW - With the young players on the roster, the Harpring signing, the future cap space and the change in salary scale with the Lux tax, I think Jazz fans can be cautiously optomistic about the future.
 
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