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Discussion Starter #1
This isn't a reaction to last nights blowout loss, its just an accumulation of things that I have noticed since the end of last season. Most of it comes down to the fact that Derrick Rose has basically turned into Deron Williams and has shown 0 signs of ever returning to his MVP form... Or even close to it. That alone seals the Bulls fate when it comes to the playoffs. They will not even come close to winning a title, they might not even come close to beating a healthy Cavs either.

Here are a few observations.

1. The Bulls as a team got worse the minute Tom Thibodeau left the team. Not saying that a change wasn't needed for a better environment, its just a fact.

2. Hoiberg does not have a roster that maximizes his style of coaching. Hoiberg needs athletic shooters and slashers. The Bulls just don't have a young team that fits what Hoiberg wants to do perfectly.

3. There is 0 leadership on the court. Butler talks a big game about being a leader, but has shown 0 vocal leadership on the court. Noah was your vocal leader on the court and now that hes on the bench (a good move IMO) the Bulls lack on court leadership.

4. Defensively they are just a mess.

5. Offensively they are good, but they aren't dynamic and while they will score more than last year, they are still not capable of matching the elite offensive teams in the NBA.
 

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100% agreed on Derrick Rose. He has been awful -- I can't even find the right words to describe how terrible he has been. It is so disappointing after he played decently well in the playoffs and talked about how hard he worked this summer. Maybe the rumors about Butler not liking Rose's work ethic were true. At this point it just seems like he is regressing. 19-year old rookie Derrick Rose was significantly better than the current Derrick Rose. And it's not like physically he looks incapable, it's all in his approach to the game. He doesn't push the ball or control the tempo of the game AT ALL. Hoiberg wants him to push the tempo and he just doesn't do it. He drives to the basket when he shouldn't, and misses opportunities when they present themselves. He makes those idiotic jump passes that lead to turnovers. He misses the open man frequently. He can't hit a jumpshot to save his life. Defensively, he is getting torched by middling opposing point guards. It really just looks like he doesn't care about basketball anymore. All these quotes about him thinking about his family are fine, but they might actually reflect what priority basketball falls in his life these days. If he feels that way, he needs to either retire or at least take a much lesser role and smaller contract. What a waste of talent he is right now. Hopefully he is just in a slump and snaps out of it, but this has become a trend at this point.

To be honest, I think Hoiberg's system has had some really good moments and I can see the potential. The spacing opportunities are WAY better than what Thibodeau achieved. I put alot of blame on Rose's (and Brooks too for that matter) inability to run the system properly. Butler, Mirotic, McDermott, Portis all look great in this offense. Gasol looks like he is getting it too. Snell fits well enough for he is, a role player. Noah, Taj, Rose look terrible -- not too surprised since they are all sub-par shooters. So all I'm saying is I don't see a reason to blow it all up, since a trade or 2 could make a huge different. If we could get a point guard with half a brain, this team would look 10x better. Even an average point guard like Darren Collison or George Hill would massively upgrade the overall team performance, just someone who can competently run the offense, push the ball, defend a little, and hit a damn jumpshot. Doesn't even need to be at all-star levels.
 

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Also -- as I stated several months ago, I think GarPax are preparing to trade for an upgrade at backup PG. This became evident the moment we drafted Bobby Portis and even moreso seeing he is ready to contribute in the rotation. We have a glut of big men and deficient PG play, so it only makes sense. Mirotic & Portis are untouchable save for a can't refuse offer. We take the best offer involving any of Gasol, Noah, Gibson. (I was hoping the upgrade would occur in Free Agency, but the PG market was very shallow -- Jeremy Lin is the only one I think we missed out on)

The unfortunate reality is we can't trade Derrick Rose. We got bamboozled by the basketball gods the minute we signed him to a max contract only months before his ACL injury. Ever since then we've had to build a team with 2/3 of a salary cap compared to our rivals, and he's been virtual dead weight on this team, save for some productive playoff games last year and a handful of regular season games where we saw glimpses of the old Derrick Rose. In hindsight I can confidently say that Rose's ACL injury was the most colossal setback for the Bulls franchise in their entire history, and that is not just rhetoric.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
It's a bit too early to say that Portis has played great under Hoiberg, it's a small sample size. But, it's one reason why I want a reshuffling done. Id rather see Portis develop instead of watching Gasol and Noah flat out not fit in this offense.

McDermott has been fine offensively, but holy crap he's atrocious defensively. Mirotic has been bad defensively too, but hes trying to get better.

The team as a whole has really let go defensively, add the fact that they aren't super talented offensively and it could be the recipe for a short postseason run.

They need a completely different type of payer at the 1 and 5. Damn near impossible with Rose on the team.
 

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truthfully I think the answer is easy but the mayor is probably avoiding doing it and will continue to do so.

bench rose or take him off the ball and let either jimmy or snell bring it up and get them in their offense .

he's more of a people pleaser and taking such a hard line is unlike him.

in truth rose is still suffering from vision issues and conditioning issues as well .

you can always get players to do more when playing time and responsibility are part of the bargain if rose wont do it to fred's liking I bet out of the group of snell, hinrich, brooks and moore you'll find someone who will get the team running at the pace you want . they may not be especially productive but rose isn't right now anyway so there is little to lose there.


as for rebuilding I've said for a while now they need to deal gasol for perimeter help, a big pg like Vasquez or multi positional player like snell is supposed to be but guys like tyreke evans and lance Stevenson are would fit in nicely...but more help on the wing and less of a glut in the post
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I'm not in favor of bringing in more veteran guys, I'm not sold on the idea that Fred has this team in control yet.

He needs to be surrounded by guys who will buy into his system. The guys he is currently coaching aren't fit for the scheme and have given up on playing defense. There is a clear power struggle going on between rose and butler, Noah is no longer relevant on the court, Gasol looks lost and there is no identity to this team as is.

It's too bad that Rose has 0 trade value, if someone offered me Michael Carter Williams for Rose straight up, I'd jump on it.

It's a mess.
 

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"Messy", yes I agree. "Mess" as in a total mess, no I disagree, because I think it is fixable.

Fred Hoiberg brought in a pretty big paradigm shift to this team. I'm all in on what Fred is advertised to bring to this team, and can only hope time will prove that advertisement can be reality.

I've seen almost every game thus far, most of our guys have old Thibodeau habits. It will take time to unlearn those habits and go with what Fred is selling. Realistically I don't think everyone will get it, ever, and those guys will need to get let go. Some of the guys are doing just fine though.

Also I don't get the hate on Gasol -- his shot was way off in game #1 , but other than that he's been good offensively: 15 ppg, 9 reb, 2.5 ast, 1.5 blks, in 28 min/game over his last 4 games. Defensively, he is what he is, but also realize that our defense has been 'good enough' in 4 out of 5 games. Only the Charlotte game got out of hand, and while the defense was poor, Charlotte also shot lights out all game long.

I'm convinced this team becomes REALLY good if we get any kind of meaningful production from the PG position. Easily a 4-1 team thus far if Rose plays even average basketball. Our PG play is so bad right now, though.

P.S. I have a BAD feeling about tonight's game against Oklahoma City. Like real bad. 2 superstar scorers isn't what I had in mind for getting this team back on the rails. Hopefully Rose decides to wake up against an elite guard.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
When I said mess, I'm mostly referring to the rose situation.... It's a total mess imo.

As for Gasol, I understand he is what he is on defense, but offensively he doesn't fit a push the pace kind of offense. I just don't see him being able to run up and down the court for a full season.

I don't see any of those "Thibs" habits you mentioned, the team flat out quits on defense which is not something that Thibs allowed, and on offense it's basically still a predominately jump shooting offense.

I think we both agree that Fred has a shot to succeed here, but it's not going to happen with this current roster. They need a lot of changes at too many former critical positions to even get close to contention.
 

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I totally agree on Rose being a mess. As I alluded he is pretty much the root of the entire team's problems. The PG is the guy facilitating the offense, it all starts with him, and when he doesn't do his job well it trickles to the other 4 guys.

Gasol is a plodder nowadays but he also plays the 5 spot, and you don't necessarily need 5 guys running to have a fast tempo offense. The old early 2000's Kings teams were awesome at fast paced ball and they have 35-year old Vlade Divac playing center. What those Kings had were guys who could move the ball. Rose, Jimmy, Snell, and Mirotic should have no problem whatsoever running the floor; they are all above average speed at their respective positions. They aren't doing a good job moving the ball, though.

The Thibodeau habits I am referencing are offensive in nature, and to me are clear as day. Rose walks the ball up the floor, the ball becomes stagnant, then they force themselves into isolation. Thibodeau always insisted on slowing the game down and that is what comes naturally to our guys now. Whereas Fred is preaching the opposite, play with "tempo", etc., which our guys clearly aren't adhering to.

And yes, I like Fred Hoiberg, and definitely agree our roster isn't perfectly constructed to what he intends to do. However I do also believe the front office want to feel out who does/doesn't fit with Hoiberg's system before jumping the gun on big roster moves. I'd actually be shocked at this point if we didn't make a trade before the deadline.
 

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LOL -- I figured if I bashed Rose enough, and then refused to watch the game tonight (and I didn't of course), Rose would get his butt in gear and actually play well. Lo and behold. Still it just kind of proves my point that it's all mental with Rose. He is fully capable physically, and he feels motivated against the best opposing point guards; tonight that was Russell Westbrook. But then he can't seem to wake up for Reggie Jackson or Kemba Walker/Jeremy Lin. Glad the Bulls took this one, though...pretty big win actually to take down a talented OKC team after the egg they laid in Charlotte the other night, and moving to 4-2 on the season. I feel very fortunate they are 4-2 after clearly seeing so much room for improvement. Really feels like we should be 2-4 instead.
 

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Let's hold off on sentiments like these until the All-Star break. We shouldn't overreact to the Hornets loss, nor get too excited about the OKC win. Hoiberg is an unknown, rotations aren't set, MDJ is out, etc.

The team does need a backup PG, though, despite Moore's occasional flashes.
 

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The team seems to lack an identity at this point. How to these Bulls consistently win basketball games? The Thibs Bulls did it with a defense and rebounding focus. Guys like Noah and Taj would get heavy burn. Snell would play more than McDermott.

"Hoiball" seems to be a higher tempo - focus on the offense approach. But, the guy is a rookie coach, he still needs to get a feel for what he's trying to do out there and the roster still has logjams all over the place. Snell or McDermott? Gasol/Noah/Mirotic/Gibson? Given the recent starting lineup has been Rose / Butler / McDermott / Mirotic / Gasol you can see what Hoiberg tends to value more.

Rookie coach with a crappy Rose and grumbly Noahs and Gibsons off the bench watching Niko and Gasol give up the paint on a nightly basis and watching McDermott (who is shooting great) trying to guard people isn't going to work long term.

The team needs to establish its identity and then the front office needs to make moves to build the roster accordingly. Noah and Gibson fit in very well with how Thibs liked to win games, and the Bulls won lots and lots of games playing that way. Its going to be tough to see the team struggle trying a different approach, especially given that we don't really know if Hoiberg will be a good NBA coach or if Mirotic and McDermott are good enough to warrant building a team around.

Its a bit of a mess right now, but that's to be expected. Check back around the 1/2 way point of this season and hopefully Hoiberg will have figured a firmer foundation and identity for this team.

As of right now, the Bulls are 23rd in the league in offensive efficiency and 15th in defensive efficiency, so they are not really doing great at anything. Certainly not offense. Of course its early and we should reserve judgement until the mid season point at the earliest. Its hard not to comment on what is going on though if you are watching the games. Rose certainly doesn't look like an all-star caliber player at this point and any title contention talk pretty relies on that.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Yeah they aren't even good enough offensively to be considered an offensive first team. They lack athleticism, they lack an identity and lack a clear cut leader on the court. I don't want to see Snell get meaningful minutes, I'm certain Garpax would rather see McDermott get a bigger role, but the guy can't guard a corpse.

I'm sensing a trend that Hoiberg is going to start leaning on his veterans over his younger players. Noah, Taj and Snell over the past 2 games are getting more time than Mirotic and McDermott. Once/if Dunleavy comes back, don't be surprised if he replaces McDermott, basically landing Doug on the same spot he was last year, playing behind Snell.
 

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Yeah they aren't even good enough offensively to be considered an offensive first team. They lack athleticism, they lack an identity and lack a clear cut leader on the court. I don't want to see Snell get meaningful minutes, I'm certain Garpax would rather see McDermott get a bigger role, but the guy can't guard a corpse.

I'm sensing a trend that Hoiberg is going to start leaning on his veterans over his younger players. Noah, Taj and Snell over the past 2 games are getting more time than Mirotic and McDermott. Once/if Dunleavy comes back, don't be surprised if he replaces McDermott, basically landing Doug on the same spot he was last year, playing behind Snell.

Fred has moved McDermott into the starting lineup, so I'm not sure that's a trend that indicates MDJ's return puts him into DNP-CD position. He's shooting 55% overall, and a ridiculous 59% from 3. He's going to play. You are right, though, that he is absolutely atrocious on defense. I'm not sure he's going to get any better riding the pine, though.

I do agree MDJ ends up starting once he returns.

The Bulls' issue right now seems to be a pretty serious lack of 2-way players. Lots of important guys only play one side of the floor particularly well.
 

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The team seems to lack an identity at this point. How to these Bulls consistently win basketball games? The Thibs Bulls did it with a defense and rebounding focus. Guys like Noah and Taj would get heavy burn. Snell would play more than McDermott.

"Hoiball" seems to be a higher tempo - focus on the offense approach. But, the guy is a rookie coach, he still needs to get a feel for what he's trying to do out there and the roster still has logjams all over the place. Snell or McDermott? Gasol/Noah/Mirotic/Gibson? Given the recent starting lineup has been Rose / Butler / McDermott / Mirotic / Gasol you can see what Hoiberg tends to value more.

Rookie coach with a crappy Rose and grumbly Noahs and Gibsons off the bench watching Niko and Gasol give up the paint on a nightly basis and watching McDermott (who is shooting great) trying to guard people isn't going to work long term.

The team needs to establish its identity and then the front office needs to make moves to build the roster accordingly. Noah and Gibson fit in very well with how Thibs liked to win games, and the Bulls won lots and lots of games playing that way. Its going to be tough to see the team struggle trying a different approach, especially given that we don't really know if Hoiberg will be a good NBA coach or if Mirotic and McDermott are good enough to warrant building a team around.

Its a bit of a mess right now, but that's to be expected. Check back around the 1/2 way point of this season and hopefully Hoiberg will have figured a firmer foundation and identity for this team.

As of right now, the Bulls are 23rd in the league in offensive efficiency and 15th in defensive efficiency, so they are not really doing great at anything. Certainly not offense. Of course its early and we should reserve judgement until the mid season point at the earliest. Its hard not to comment on what is going on though if you are watching the games. Rose certainly doesn't look like an all-star caliber player at this point and any title contention talk pretty relies on that.

Yeah, I agree with all of this. You get the sense that this is the last year with this group (purportedly) making a run for a title. It's pretty easy to see that the Bulls think the future is:

???
Butler
McD
Mirotic
Portis

That's actually a pretty balanced roster. You have one wing and one big to stick on the better offensive threats.

The problem the Bulls run into now is the competition for minutes. Obviously, Hoiberg talked a lot about limiting minutes and using depth as an advantage, which I found to be a relief and was on board with. However, when you have a bunch of people struggling and not guarding, it's pretty tempting to start leaning on the reliable players more, which I think may continue to happen here more and more.

I know he's a rookie, I know there's too many frontcourt players already, and maybe there are things going on behind the scenes I don't know about, but I can't believe Bobby Portis can't find some minutes here and there when the team needs a spark. There have been enough sluggish Pau nights and enough foul trouble to create an opportunity here and there to play him.

My hope is the Bulls are playing Taj to prove he's healthy and will move him this year.
 

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The big thing I hope people realize is that the Bulls aren't actually running "Hoiball" accurately. Hoiberg wants to run it and they just aren't. Bulls are only 16th in pace and 23rd in offensive efficiency according to Hollinger's page here: http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats. Hoiberg wants us playing way faster than that which in theory opens up space and creates opportunities. I can't even count how many times the ball gets stagnant in someone's hands this year. This is not supposed to be an iso-heavy offense, yet it is happening anyways, and this is turning the game into a sludge-fest.

That is where I put so much blame on Rose, even more than his poor shooting. As I said before Rose is failing to push the tempo and looks indecisive. They did a better job running it during pre-season than the regular season thus far; and perhaps not coincidentally, Rose didn't play at all in the pre-season. I actually think E'Twaun Moore has run the offense the best by a mile, and that is pretty bad b/c he isn't anything special.

I do think Dunleavy's return could help, as his absence hurt us alot last year too. But I really see us needing a competent point guard to usurp Brooks/Moore/Hinrich in the rotation. Someone who can really push the ball and make the right pass on the move. Hoping for a trade but I am not really sure who to target. Here is a list of all PGs tracked by ESPN (BTW, Rose is ranked 56th of 67 in PER...so there you have it): http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Well if the team isn't running the offense that the coach wants, then a lot of the blame should be on the coach. It's one thing to say we want to play a certain way and just don't have the horses to do it, it's another to have at the very least guys who are capable of running who flat out refuse to push the pace (I'm looking at you Rose and butler). Hoiberg needs to assert himself and either get his guys inline, or risk losing the teams respect in his very first year coaching here.

There have also been reports that Noah might get inserted back into the starting lineup if the bulls continue to struggle on defense.... Its a quick fix, but I have a feeling it could damage the team in the long run. The whole point of getting rid of Thibs was to play younger guys and have a more open way of doing business at the cost of great coaching and ultimately on court results.

For Hoiberg to start reverting back to win now at all costs mode, seems desperate and pointless.
 

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In some cases you can make that claim about a coach, but context is key. You have a guy in Rose who is starting to make a track record for himself of only getting up to play when he feels like it, and routinely gets burned on both sides of the court by far less talented players. This was happening long before Hoiberg was here; basically most of last season too. You can theoretically have 4 of our starters running the offense fine, but when the 5th guy is your point guard, that can severely ripple into the entire offense.

If we're pointing fingers at people other than Rose or the players, I'd put alot more blame on GarPax rather than Hoiberg for not going out to get a quality backup PG. However again, context is key -- the free agency PG market was quite terrible this past summer, and with Noah & Taj being damaged goods at the time, they weren't exactly tradeable assets. I still do think a trade will be coming, though, just wish it could've been sooner.
 

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At some point, you have to win with the players you have. This is a talented roster and I'm sure many, many NBA coaches would gladly swap out the guys they have with this group.

Its unclear if "Hoiball" is even a thing that is worth caring about on the NBA level. This guy could be another Tim Floyd. Its not like he has a great track record of NBA head coaching success.

McDermott is playing. Mirotic is starting. Hinrich isn't sniffing the court anymore. Thibs is gone. I'm waiting to see what so many were so excited about unleashing much of last season.

Still very early of course and for me at least mid-season is the time where I'll really start thinking about where the team is actually at.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
At some point, you have to win with the players you have. This is a talented roster and I'm sure many, many NBA coaches would gladly swap out the guys they have with this group.

Its unclear if "Hoiball" is even a thing that is worth caring about on the NBA level. This guy could be another Tim Floyd. Its not like he has a great track record of NBA head coaching success.

McDermott is playing. Mirotic is starting. Hinrich isn't sniffing the court anymore. Thibs is gone. I'm waiting to see what so many were so excited about unleashing much of last season.

Still very early of course and for me at least mid-season is the time where I'll really start thinking about where the team is actually at.
Pretty spot on. Its not like Hoiberg was this great offensive mind in college either. If the Bulls really wanted to be this run and gun type of team, there probably isn't a better guy to hire for the job than Mike D'Antoni.

At some point this team has to resemble what the coach wants it to be. The Bulls did not have these epic defensive players under Thibs, but he was able to instill a philosophy and game plan day in and day out that resembled exactly what kind of team he wanted.

To be fair, Garpax has so far failed to make the transition easier for Hoiberg, but maybe there will be trade deadline deals to be made.
 
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