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BTW...Golden State hits a late 3-pointer to beat lowly Philadelphia by 3 points. Sound familiar? Philly has been a different team ever since getting Ish Smith; he seems to bring some of that raw talent together. I'm less concerned about the Bulls nearly losing to Philly as even a legendary team like GS can do that. The bigger head scratcher is how they can be 11-6 against top 10 teams (undefeated vs CLE and TOR, top 2 teams in East), but then be 1-7 against Charlotte, Boston, & Detroit combined.
 

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Discussion Starter #202
Well I'm glad you can pretend to know what any person "would do if he could", or that you are tracking precisely how much tax Jimmy is putting on himself out on the floor. Not sure I would call less than 32 minutes per game "big minutes" but whatever. I was mainly re-stating some of the major complaints about Thibodeau. Reality is the sample is too small on Hoiberg to make a long term conclusion as I said, and these comments were more about Thibodeau, less about Hoiberg. Though since you guys love railing on Hoiberg like it's a hobby, it'd be great to take some of the additional context into consideration rather than just looking at 1 number on a piece of paper. I brought up some of these points and it doesn't seem to be resonating. So whatever, moving on.
I don't think anyone is railing on the guy, the facts are what they are. He can't coach an NBA team... Well let me be fair, he cant coach this team. Hes failed miserably at trying to install his offense, if that even exists.
 

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I don't think anyone is railing on the guy, the facts are what they are. He can't coach an NBA team... Well let me be fair, he cant coach this team. Hes failed miserably at trying to install his offense, if that even exists.
You are making 2 very different points. One I agree with, the other I can't agree with yet b/c it's way too soon.

I agree he has failed to install his offense. The players aren't running it, and based on Thibodeau's failure to play a similar read and react offense 2 years ago, I'm inclined to believe this group of players is just incapable of it. Has Hoiberg failed thus far, yes. Is it his fault? Maybe, maybe not. There is pretty strong evidence we don't have a good group of players capable of playing a share the ball offense. You said it yourself right, this team plays its best in iso ball. Sadly that's not good enough even when they're at their best. I am 99.9% certain the players bear a large part of the blame (+front office for bringing a poor fit of players to the coach/system they were bringing in). It's sort of like investing in a Playstation 4 purchase and complaining that it doesn't play XBox One games. There is quality in both items but they don't function together. (terrible analogy, LOL)

All this being said, I can't fathom how this gets anyone to the conclusion he is incapable of coaching an NBA team, period. Dude has all of 50 games under his belt, with a PG playing half blind for half of that time and 2 other starters from last year being out for all/most of the season. Granted this isn't all of the team's problems but it's certainly having an impact. To be completely honest, Gar Forman is the man on the hot seat right now. People are realizing clear as day the flaws with the roster and he's first in line to fix it. There are even recent reports suggesting some divergence between Gar and the rest of the Bulls front office; this is usually the first step to a GM change. Unless Gar knocks his next few moves out of the park, I bet he's not with the Bulls 12 months from now.
 

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Speaking of canning Gar: I think the Bulls should try to get Matt Lloyd back. He left the Bulls a few years ago to be assistant GM of the Magic. He was valued for his role as a scout and now has GM level experience. Taking lead GM of the Bulls would be a big promotion for him, and there is a comfort level with Paxson and above. IIRC he left on good terms. Wouldn't surprise me at all if Gar is out of here even by season's end and frankly I wouldn't mind it.
 

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Deadline is coming up. Having both Noah and Niko hurt has put a damper on how many choices, players they could have traded.

I want the team to blow up. We may be .500 or below at deadline. Enough with this group. Some moves need to be made sooner than later.

Ralph at realgm said he has heard some GMs say that despite the injuries we have, Gasol could still be moved at deadline.

Build the team around Butler, Rose. Keep Portis. I and divided on Niko. He has not turned out to be the player he was hyped up to be. He can go. If he stays, well we could do worse at a stretch four.

We need players here that can run. Run the offense that Fred wants to run. Dunleavy, and Hinrich are old. Brooks can score some nights, but too small when it comes to the playoffs, He needs to go as well. We need a young center that can run, we need a real SF that can run. We need a younger, taller pg that run as well.

I would be very surprised if we make a trade at deadline, although it is needed. More than one trade actually!
 

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Hey man, good to see you posting here!

Deadline is coming up. Having both Noah and Niko hurt has put a damper on how many choices, players they could have traded.

I want the team to blow up. We may be .500 or below at deadline. Enough with this group. Some moves need to be made sooner than later.
I'd be OK with that. This season has quickly become a feeler/transition type of season. Intentional or not, that's just reality. In the past I've been OK standing pat at the trade deadline, but this isn't one of those seasons. Really want to see us mix something up. Hoiberg is on a 5-year contract and so with that type of commitment you've got to give him players that fit. The Bulls will be better positioned for future success here if we get value for the guys who won't be here next season or the one after, and also getting a lottery pick wouldn't hurt.

Ralph at realgm said he has heard some GMs say that despite the injuries we have, Gasol could still be moved at deadline.
I hope so, Gasol is gone anyways so might as well get something for him if you can. The only thing the Bulls get by keeping him is the chance at a first round series win and some playoff revenue. We saw that last year though so that isn't really high on the priority list, at least for me.

Build the team around Butler, Rose. Keep Portis. I and divided on Niko. He has not turned out to be the player he was hyped up to be. He can go. If he stays, well we could do worse at a stretch four.
Might as well, Butler is a stud and locked in long-term, while we're stuck with Rose for 1 more season. Though he's played better recently, Rose's next injury is always around the corner, he's still unreliable/inconsistent, doesn't fit with Jimmy very well, and will probably sign somewhere else when he's a free agent (I'd guess the Lakers since he loves L.A.).

Portis seems like a keeper. Niko is IMO a trade candidate if you can get value for him now, but I'd be OK giving him 1 more shot next year. Seems like he didn't get any practice or weight room time being with the Spanish National Team last summer and it showed. Maybe his appendectomy will be a blessing in disguise where he gets some needed time off and refresh mentally. Really needs to work out hard in the off-season, otherwise what you see if what you'll get. Too bad b/c he'd be quite a player if he had a Jimmy Butler like work ethic. Has a ton of talent.

We need players here that can run. Run the offense that Fred wants to run. Dunleavy, and Hinrich are old. Brooks can score some nights, but too small when it comes to the playoffs, He needs to go as well. We need a young center that can run, we need a real SF that can run. We need a younger, taller pg that run as well.
Agreed. Though Hinrich is probably retiring after this year, I would assume. Dunleavy I'll need to see how he bounces back; hard to get hopes up at age 36, though anything resembling last year's Dunleavy I think fits Hoiberg. Dunleavy actually runs alot (the tracking data backs this up) and he should fit a move the ball type offense better than most. Brooks should've never been brought back, I wanted Jeremy Lin, though not many other alternatives available. I'm hoping we draft PG this year (e.g., Demetrius Jackson) who becomes our backup PG with starter potential down the road.

I would be very surprised if we make a trade at deadline, although it is needed. More than one trade actually!
 

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Yikes. Bulls are currently down to borderline D-league level team. 5 rotation players now out. 3 of the top 4 bigs out. Top 2 wings out. Team's best player out.

I tuned in last night briefly and I think it was Rose, Moore, McDermott, Gibson, Portis out there. Sadly that was the best lineup we had to offer.

Alot has gone wrong this year, but these injury pileups certainly aren't helping matters. I sincerely hope this helps accelerate some a trade deadline move of some kind, e.g., Pau trade. And missing the playoffs wouldn't be the end of the world anymore to guarantee a top 14 pick. At this point we're playing for next season and beyond.
 

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Yikes. Bulls are currently down to borderline D-league level team. 5 rotation players now out. 3 of the top 4 bigs out. Top 2 wings out. Team's best player out.

I tuned in last night briefly and I think it was Rose, Moore, McDermott, Gibson, Portis out there. Sadly that was the best lineup we had to offer.

Alot has gone wrong this year, but these injury pileups certainly aren't helping matters. I sincerely hope this helps accelerate some a trade deadline move of some kind, e.g., Pau trade. And missing the playoffs wouldn't be the end of the world anymore to guarantee a top 14 pick. At this point we're playing for next season and beyond.
Cameron Bairstow started for the Chicago Bulls at center last night in a game that counted.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Oh, and E'Twaun Moore also started the game.

AND THEN Jimmy Butler had to leave the game due to injury.

Brutal. Simply brutal.
 

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What are your thoughts on Jimmy Butler alluding to wanting to play more than he was? You keep bringing this up as a Hoiberg decision without addressing the Jimmy Butler part of the decision.
last season jimmy played a similar amount and it was thibs fault,

you think jimmy didn't want big minutes last season ?(a contract year)

if it was thibs fault last season, its fred's fault this season.


Jimmy averaged 35 min/game in the season's first 10 games. As we got into December, I recalled Jimmy post-game comments about not wanting to come out of games. Something like "I can handle a few extra minutes, I want to be out there, etc.). I doubt it's coincidence that his minutes started going up after that and now he's at 38 per game.

I still don't like it, and I think Jimmy needs to be smart enough to know this is a marathon. Though understandable given he is a competitor. He has earned the right to ask for more time as our best player. Of course some will perceive as Hoiberg being a pushover. I'd hope the conversation went down more as two guys talking and coming to an agreement. Though I won't pretend to know.
its not really butler's decision how much he plays , if it was they wouldn't need head coaches
 

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last season jimmy played a similar amount and it was thibs fault,

you think jimmy didn't want big minutes last season ?(a contract year)

if it was thibs fault last season, its fred's fault this season.




its not really butler's decision how much he plays , if it was they wouldn't need head coaches

Yeah, I have found it concerning that Fred a couple of times this year has said something akin to "Jimmy wouldn't let me take him out" when he has played huge minutes in 2nd halves of games. You're the head coach!
 

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Yeah, I have found it concerning that Fred a couple of times this year has said something akin to "Jimmy wouldn't let me take him out" when he has played huge minutes in 2nd halves of games. You're the head coach!
The better situation would be Jimmy accepts it's not ideal to play 38 minutes per game, or much more in certain games, so then he and Hoiberg agree and it's an easy decision.

From Fred's POV I get it -- Jimmy is your star player, you want to respect him, let him lead, have a say. Fred is trying not to come in Day 1 and breed conflict with the team's best player. I get it, and honestly it's a tough spot, really lose-lose no matter how you go. Conventional wisdom would be you're the coach, you overrule the players and Jimmy should respect that. Real world doesn't work that way. I do think, however, Fred may be trying too hard not to upset the balance. Just a tough balance and I don't know how you achieve it, that's why coaching is hard I suppose, you're never going to please everyone.
 

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Discussion Starter #212
You know what else is making this whole thing look like the shit show that it is? Derrick Rose and the offense playing much better without Butler on the court lol.

This franchise is a joke. Has been for over a decade, been saying it for several years now. Never got the credit I deserve, I forgive you guys.
 

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You know what else is making this whole thing look like the shit show that it is? Derrick Rose and the offense playing much better without Butler on the court lol.
Wish I could say I'm surprised. I love Butler, he's my guy, but I became a fan because of his defensive tenacity and relentless energy, not because he can score in isolation plays. Credit to him for that, and it CAN make us a more dangerous team at times. However both last year and this year, the scoring version of Jimmy Butler makes the ball stick too much. It's something he needs to work on, and I'm sure he will if he acknowledges it is an issue. Hard to say if he actually will. BTW, this problem is not new -- alot of great players go through this stage of their careers: Kobe, Harden, etc. Would love to see Jimmy model himself after Paul Pierce for instance who seemed to strike a great balance between iso abilities and team ball movement.
 

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I'm falling into a Bulls fan depression again. We're running on a treadmill... trapped in NBA purgatory.

I knew we were going to downgrade from a coaching perspective (even if you were optimistic, Fred Hoiberg was going to have a transition/learning period) but I was somewhat hopeful that our personnel would get us over that hump, or at least keep us competitive. Between the carousel of injured vets and the uneven play of the younger players that I hoped would give us a boost, this has been a really tough season to watch for me.

So, I'm with bizkit (who deserves credit for sticking with a name that is ostensibly an ode to the blight on american pop culture that was Limp Bizkit). Time to rebuild/reshuffle. Let's blow it up. The season is a wash.

When do pitchers and catchers report? Ah shit, that's right... the White Sox did the same thing to me over the summer.
 

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So can we shift this thread somewhat toward a more interesting "what should the Bulls do next?" discussion. That to me is far more interesting and useful than lingering on the team's problems. We all agree there are problems with this team and have beat that horse to death.

I think you start with, who are the players worth keeping around mid-to-long term. As in guys you want to give at least 1-2 more seasons on this team. For me it's a short list:

- Jimmy Butler -- team's centerpiece and new leader
- Bobby Portis -- multi talented big man who is young (20 yrs old) and already able to contribute somewhat
- Doug McDermott -- many will disagree but he has 1 thing that has been evasive for us, and that's a consistent 3-pt shooter. At a minimum that's worth minutes in a bench role, and he's on a cheap contract for another 2 seasons minimum.

Though let me say, nobody is untouchable if the right deal comes up. Just that these are the guys I'm not looking to escort out of town.

Taj Gibson is a guy I wouldn't mind keeping as a vet role player, as I believe you always need guys like him, but fact remains he is past 30 and should explore getting value while we can.
 

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So can we shift this thread somewhat toward a more interesting "what should the Bulls do next?" discussion. That to me is far more interesting and useful than lingering on the team's problems. We all agree there are problems with this team and have beat that horse to death.
Fair enough, but I can't promise I won't continue to beat that horse a few more times. It is cathartic.

I think you start with, who are the players worth keeping around mid-to-long term. As in guys you want to give at least 1-2 more seasons on this team. For me it's a short list:

- Jimmy Butler -- team's centerpiece and new leader
Jimmy is our best player, but he isn't a franchise player. I agree that we should absolutely keep him around (and he's under contract, obviously). So, we have a 2 guard... done, taken care of... one piece in place.
- Bobby Portis -- multi talented big man who is young (20 yrs old) and already able to contribute somewhat
I like what I've seen out of Portis so far but I'm not entirely sure what his ceiling is. I worry that the hype has gotten out in front of him a little bit from the Chicago fan-base. He's young and under team control for the foreseeable future so I'd definitely plan on him being part of the mix going forward. That being said, he's not untradeable (as you mention later).

- Doug McDermott -- many will disagree but he has 1 thing that has been evasive for us, and that's a consistent 3-pt shooter. At a minimum that's worth minutes in a bench role, and he's on a cheap contract for another 2 seasons minimum.
I'm a big Dougie McBuckets fan but the jury is still out from my perspective. I think he's shown enough to convince me that he's an NBA player, and that he can play a role for us stretching the floor. I don't know that he's an NBA starter, but he has some untapped potential yet. The thing that worries me about McDermott is that I think he gets passive at times, and I didn't really expect that when we drafted him. I hate nights where he plays good minutes and puts up 3-4 shots... some of that is the failure of our team to get him properly involved in the offense, but some of it is Doug passing up opportunities. Some nights he's gunning, some night he isn't... I'd like him to have a permanent green light. Defensively he gets lost a little and he obviously struggles with lateral quickness... he's like the SF version of Drew Gooden defensively at this point.

Though let me say, nobody is untouchable if the right deal comes up. Just that these are the guys I'm not looking to escort out of town.

Taj Gibson is a guy I wouldn't mind keeping as a vet role player, as I believe you always need guys like him, but fact remains he is past 30 and should explore getting value while we can.
I love Taj, but we know what he is and he isn't getting any younger. If Gasol opts out (I'd like to try to move him pre-deadline) without us getting anything for him Taj may be one of our more valuable trade assets.

I can't figure out Niko Mirotic. Noah is probably done physically. Hinrich is old. Brooks is bad. Moore is a dime-a-dozen NBA reserve. Dunleavy is over the hill. Tony Snell can't be relied on.

So... do you keep Butler (and Rose, for a year at minimum) and try to move the other pieces in an effort to assemble something that better fits Hoiberg's system (you know, assuming he has a system)?
 

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Who you trade seems to depend on what type of a rebuild you are going for. If it's a swing-for-the-fences trade for an established star-type player, then pretty much anyone can go. If it's retooling to get younger/more athletic with more of a long-term outlook, then you're going to be more inclined to hang on to Portis and Dougie McBuckets and look mostly at just moving vets. I'm ok with either approach at this point.
 

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Nobody should be considered untouchable, not even Jimmy. The fact is, the Bulls are so far away from a title that it honestly makes no sense to consider anyone on this team untouchable.

If someone is crazy enough to offer you a top 5 pick for Jimmy and Pau, you jump on it in a heartbeat. 5 years of Jimmy at this point isn't all that much better than 5+ years of Ben Simmons.

Doug's potential is not going to be realized here. Hes a lifetime scorer, not a Dunleavy clone. So this whole idea that one day he can develop into a bench 3 and rotating D wing is just dumb. He needs to be on a team that's going to force him into a position where he needs to get the ball in his hands and go to work.

Snell is not an NBA player and needs to go. Bairstow needs to go. Who even knows what Portis is. Taj can go, Pau needs to be traded for something in return.

It's just time to clean house. Pax needs to go also. The Bulls need fresh eyes on this team. A new direction.... Heck I honestly think they should rebuild now.
 

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I'd trade our whole roster and maximum allowable picks for Ben Simmons, honestly. That kid is going to be ridiculous. Already is really.

Who in the world is saying McDermott will be a 3 and D guy? McDermott could be a valuable as a scoring punch off the bench, and within that skillset happens to have elite 3-pt shooting ability. Honestly based on his career trajectory that appears to be where he is headed. I say keep him for another few seasons because he's young, cheap contract, and elite 3-pt shooters are just hard to find in today's NBA. I don't see what the Bulls gain by trading him, and don't see some other team offering some major value for him either.
 

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So can we shift this thread somewhat toward a more interesting "what should the Bulls do next?" discussion. That to me is far more interesting and useful than lingering on the team's problems. We all agree there are problems with this team and have beat that horse to death.

I think you start with, who are the players worth keeping around mid-to-long term. As in guys you want to give at least 1-2 more seasons on this team. For me it's a short list:

- Jimmy Butler -- team's centerpiece and new leader
- Bobby Portis -- multi talented big man who is young (20 yrs old) and already able to contribute somewhat
- Doug McDermott -- many will disagree but he has 1 thing that has been evasive for us, and that's a consistent 3-pt shooter. At a minimum that's worth minutes in a bench role, and he's on a cheap contract for another 2 seasons minimum.

Though let me say, nobody is untouchable if the right deal comes up. Just that these are the guys I'm not looking to escort out of town.

Taj Gibson is a guy I wouldn't mind keeping as a vet role player, as I believe you always need guys like him, but fact remains he is past 30 and should explore getting value while we can.
Completly agree with you on all of the post.
 
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