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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Keith Van Horn
17.2 ppg (3rd on team)
7.4 rpg (2nd on team)
1.7 apg (7th on team)
1.0 spg (2nd on team)
0.3 bpg (4th on team)
2.8 tpg (2nd on team)
.454 fg% (4th on team)
.350 3pt% (4th on team)
.833 ft% (tied for 5th on team)
34.5 mpg (3rd on team)
16.88 eff (2nd on team)

Latrell Sprewell
18.3 ppg (3rd on team)
4.1 rpg (tied for 3rd on team)
3.8 apg (3rd on team)
1.2 spg (2nd on team)
0.2 bpg (9th on team)
2.4 tpg (3rd on team)
.422 fg% (12th on team)
.296 3pt% (6th on team)
.828 ft% (5th on team)
39.2 mpg (2nd on team)
15.03 eff (3rd on team)

Glenn Robinson
16.9 ppg (2nd on team)
4.7 rpg (5th on team)
1.6 apg (tied for 5th on team)
1.1 spg (4th on team)
0.2 bpg (6th on team)
3.1 tpg (2nd on team)
.443 fg% (5th on team)
.370 3pt% (3rd on team)
.849 ft% (1st on team)
33.7 mpg (4th on team)
12.71 eff (4th on team)

What happened to his 3.5 turnovers per game and sub .400 shooting? I notice that everybody complained about Van Horn until he got healthy. I also notice that people said he would cool off when someone pointed out he had 4 straight 20 point games. Well, let's see what Van Horn has done in his last 13 games.

12/20 vs Hawks: 20 points, 7-9 fg (people made a big deal about this being Keith's biggest game as a Knick)

12/23 vs Wolves: 20 points, 5-15 fg

12/26 vs Grizzlies: 28 points, 10-17 fg

12/27 vs Heat: 28 points, 10-15 fg

12/29 vs Magic: 19 points, 6-14 fg

12/30 vs Heat: 22 points, 10-16 fg

1/2 vs Bulls: 25 points, 9-22 fg

1/4 vs Nets: 21 points, 10-16 fg

1/6 vs Cavs: 20 points, 7-13 fg

1/8 vs Rockets: 17 points, 6-12 fg

1/10 vs Bucks: 6 points, 2-6 fg (KVH left game with injury)

1/14 vs Magic: 22 points, 8-12 fg

1/16 vs Sonics: 30 points, 10-15 fg

KVH has scored 20 points in 10 of his last 13 games, and he has scored 17 (his scoring average) in all but the one where he got hurt. KVH also grabbed at least 7 boards in 9 of the 13 contests, 5 of those in double digits.

But anyway, lets get back to the rest of the guys in the topic.

What happened to the big dog? I thought the Sixers got the steal of the deal, trading a garbage player like Van Horn for a bonafide 20 point scorer? What gives?

Heck, look at how Van Horn did last year for Philly compared to big dog.

15.9 ppg (-1.0)
7.1 rpg (+2.4)
1.3 apg (-0.3)
0.9 spg (-0.2)
0.4 bpg (+0.2)
2.0 tpg (-1.1)
.482 fg% (+.039)
.369 3pt% (-.001)
.804 ft% (-.045)
31.6 mpg (-2.1)
15.73 eff (+3.02)

Did I mention that the Sixers are 8-13 in games the Big Dog has played? Looks like this trade is going to help the Knicks make the playoffs in more ways than one if Glenn Robinson continues his usual losing ways. Philly might want to pray for another injury.

And why isn't Sprewell doing any better than Van Horn? I thought we got ripped off in this deal? I thought he was an irreplacable star in NY? I thought Van Horn couldn't handle the pressure in NY? Hmm. Makes me wonder how much better Van Horn will be doing in 3 years than Spree, when Van Horn is 31 and Spree is an ancient 35.
 

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I don't think it's fair to compare Sprewell and Van Horn at this point. Both guys have shown that they put up much better stats when they are the secondary option to a great player (Sprewell/Garnett and Van Horn/Iverson).

Sprewell is a better player overall, but I think Van Horn is the better fit in New York that Sprewell was.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Sprewell is a better player overall, but I think Van Horn is the better fit in New York that Sprewell was.
I take it you mean this:

Sprewell is a better SG than Van Horn.

Van Horn is a better SF/PF than Sprewell.
 

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you cant compare Spree and KVH.....One is a SG who sacrificed for the good of the team..The other is a PF/SF...

And you know what I think about your statistical analysis.....

Stats can be "curve fitted"and manipulated any way you want..

For instance,comparing this year vs last year is the Knicks record better with Spree in the lineup or KVH??You Know the answer..

Also,who has had a better net effect on his team??Spree for the Wolves or KVH for the Knicks???You know the answer..

One could infer from that set of stats that Spree is the more valuable player

Its very easy to present stats in any manner you like..have you ever studied Stats??Are you familiar with curve fitting and optimisations??Thats what we all like to do...

By the way I was for the KVH trade..But I feel Spree is a far better all around player...Just not on this Knicks team...
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Also,who has had a better net effect on his team??Spree for the Wolves or KVH for the Knicks???You know the answer..
Bad arguement. The T'Wolves traded Terrell Brandon for Sprewell. Brandon didn't play a game last season. The T'Wolves obviously have a better net increase than the Knicks because the only player they gave up for Sprewell was backup center Marc Jackson. But what would I know about that, that's not really a statistic.

For instance,comparing this year vs last year is the Knicks record better with Spree in the lineup or KVH??You Know the answer..
That depends. Van Horn played through injury a couple games. Sprewell if I recall, sat through his injuries. Naturally sitting through injuries leads to a better on-floor record.

And you know what I think about your statistical analysis.....
Actually I don't. I prefer to read the small percentage of your posts that have to do with basketball instead of your personal opinions of me and my practices. I'm sure all basketball fans find Rashidi's statistical analysis to be the least informative bucket of crap they've ever read. Therefore, I guess I should stop bringing them up, since nobody in the world finds them mildly interesting.

Fair enough. One final stat from Rashidi. Someone's going to have to look it up though. I nominate you, since you are always pining for me to answer a question in every post.

How many points did Keith Van Choke have in the 4th tonight? And how many points did the Knicks have in the 3rd, when Van Horn got hit in the face and had to leave the game?
 

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KVH

Has been playing real good ball past 13 games. Kieth doesn't get the respect he deserves. He usually plays hurt and doesn't complain. When healthy he is as good as any of the top SF/PF as any in the league with exception of Garnett and Dirk.

KVH teams have also been winners and have gotten worse after he was traded.

Oh yea, Greg Anthony don't know squat, the way Kieth has been playing he is making Greg, Smith and other media look stupid.
 

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keith van horn has definitely stepped up his game,and i respect him alot more now. hes been thriving on the team play the knicks have been using for the past month or so. Before that it was just iso's and losses.

he still needs to not get his shot blocked. its ridiculous...and the turnovers still(and probably will) have to go down.

of course with the team the knicks have right now, van horn is the better option then Sprewell. Of course if stephon wasnt around id still rather have letrell.
 

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Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!

of course with the team the knicks have right now, van horn is the better option then Sprewell. Of course if stephon wasnt around id still rather have letrell.
Good point. Spree was the primary creator on a team bereft of play-makers. Now the Knicks have Marbury, Penny, even Frank Williams as play-makers. KVH doesn't create and hasn't succeeded as a primary scorer. KVH doesn't need to be the primary scorer with Houston and Marbury, which might actually allow him to score more. Spree is a versatile player, though, who's proving to be valuable with the T-wolves - he would probably be good on this team, too.

Van Horn earned his criticisms in NJ and Philly and he's now on his 3rd chance to establish his star. From Marbury (disregarding their history), to Penny, to Houston, to Kurt Thomas, KVH can't be set up any better than he is on the Knicks to succeed.
 

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Kudos Rashidi for not being afraid to trade Spree for VH. Keith has done fine, the last two games not withstanding. But it hardly seems cause to gloat. Knicks had a better record last year with Spree in the lineup than this year with VH. Minnesota is kicking butt while we stumble. And Isiah would gladly trade VH straight up for Spree but Flip Saunders would only laugh.

The reason VH gets a bad rap?

Here are his career vs playoff stats:

FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
Career:
.442 .350 .831 7.50 1.7 .89 .57 2.45 3.20 17.7
Playoffs:
.400 .432 .787 6.60 1.5 .83 .31 1.80 3.00 12.3

He's down in the playoffs in just about every meaningful stat. Okay, to his credit his 3pt% goes up, his TO's go down, and his fouls go down (probably because his defense softens). But FG%, FT%, RPG, APG, SPG, BPG, PPG all go down. Some rather significantly.

Van Horn is an okay forward, somewhere above average. But he doesn't bring a lot of energy to the game, not a lot of defense, and not a lot of versatility. The conventional wisdom is that VH is a better fit for this team, but we all know what the Knicks need is a slasher (like Spree) and a low post stud. VH is neither.
 

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There is one reason Spree was trade and it had NOTHING to do with basketball..Dolan was fed up,rightfully so or not...

I can honestly say I do not remeber Spree ever being benched in the 4th quarter..I have seen KVH benched many atime in the 4th quarter..

That is the difference to me...Spree is a guy Coaches want out there late in the game..You cant say the same for KVH
 
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