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The headline for this story ("Wells ponders past, fires an I-told-you-so at Blazers") seems sensationalized.

What, in the article itself, was incorrect? I think that the only even questionable thing he said was that, "The next three or four years are going to be bad." because I think that's a pretty long time horizon for improvement... but even there, he might be correct.

If he's rubbing it in the faces of the fans or management, I missed it. I wouldn't entirely blame him if he did, but I don't see it here.

Ed O.
 
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Overall I felt Wells was treated fairly here. He created some problems for himself and was a relatively inconsistent player. I do agree with the timeframe for us to get back on the right road.
 

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BLAZER PROPHET said:
Overall I felt Wells was treated fairly here. He created some problems for himself and was a relatively inconsistent player.
So many people went ballistic about how Wells treated Cheeks... now that we see Cheeks couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag, and that the list of people (ranging from players to a former assistant coach) didn't get along with him is longer than it was at the beginning of last year, isn't it possible that Blazers management overreacted?

I would certainly say so.

Ed o.
 

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Ed O said:
So many people went ballistic about how Wells treated Cheeks... now that we see Cheeks couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag, and that the list of people (ranging from players to a former assistant coach) didn't get along with him is longer than it was at the beginning of last year, isn't it possible that Blazers management overreacted?

I would certainly say so.

Ed o.
What does not getting along with the coach have anything to do with spitting at fans and bad mouthing them in an issue of SI? That's right, absolutely nothing.
 

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I think the blame lays on Whitsitt for Briging in DA right when Bonzi had proven himself to be our starting SG. It left Bonzi extremely disgruntled.
 

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Schilly said:
I think the blame lays on Whitsitt for Briging in DA right when Bonzi had proven himself to be our starting SG. It left Bonzi extremely disgruntled.
Good point. Bob's failing toward the end was forcing the coach into bad positions with too many guys who could and expected to start at the same positions. I think it stunted Bonzi's growth and forced us to get rid of Jermaine. It would have been great if he could have used the depth to make deals to improve a position instead of swapping depth for depth...

Oh well, easy for me to say...
 

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Cheeks not coaching well is a poor excuse from some punk player to disrespect him. Cheeks should have respect based on the organization appointing him as coach. If they disagree with his teaching, plays, etc, they need to talk with him respectfully as a adult. I personally didn't like Cheeks as our coach, but I'll never support players verbally attacking him in a disrespectful manner.

I remember Bonzi getting traded. We got a 1st round pick and Wesley Person. IMO, we could have waived him and I would have been ok with that. The fact that his name comes up in trade rumors with the Grizzlies every year shows he isn't some player teams need to have to be good.
 

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Sambonius said:
What does not getting along with the coach have anything to do with spitting at fans and bad mouthing them in an issue of SI? That's right, absolutely nothing.
What do those things have to do with him being traded? Very little, compared to his blowup with Cheeks.

I tried to find links to when he "spit at fans" but I think you might be mixing up him spitting at Danny Ferry? If I'm mistaken, forgive me and please provide a link or at least a date.

Bonzi's comment to SI: December, 2001.
Bonzi's allegedly spitting at Ferry: November, 2002.
Bonzi cursing at Cheeks: November 17, 2003.
Bonzi traded: December 4, 2003.

If you think that he was traded because of earlier incidents, you're kidding yourself. The Blazers could have traded him at any time before the Cheeks blowup, and they almost certainly would have received more value.

The earlier incidents caused the Blazers to have a shorter leash with Bonzi, naturally. They thought that trading him would appease the PR-hungry element of the fan base.

The Blazers moved Wells in spite of him being at his low point (to date) in his NBA career and in spite of Mo Cheeks having clear coaching and personality flaws that seem to attract this sort of treatment.

Hap might show the "dead horse" image, and to some extent that's a fair criticisim of my arguments, but the one like Sambonius made just doesn't hold any water with me because it seems like some are ignoring all the evidence that's emerged since the trade and are unwilling to even contemplate that the Blazers made a bad decision.

Ed O.
 

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Bonzi being traded had more to do with him being a pain in the butt than it did anything relating to issues with Cheeks. In my view, almost evey team in the NBA has a player or two who are pains in the butt. Portland's problem under Whitsitt was that we stockpiled them to the point that a certain critical pain in the butt mass was achieved. Dumping a few pains in the butt from the roster was necessary to prevent a total meltdown.
 

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e_blazer1 said:
Dumping a few pains in the butt from the roster was necessary to prevent a total meltdown.
As opposed to what we have now?

And I don't see why a "total meltdown" was inevitable. The team had won games consistently with a lot of pains in the butt before the Wells-Cheeks incident...

Paul Allen decided to go in another direction, no doubt. PatterNash were given the mandate to change and the authority to make changes.

Setting aside whether Allen SHOULD have gone in the new direction, I think that PatterNash pulled the trigger at the wrong time with Wells, and I think that the Cheeks incident was the catalyst for that.

Ed O.
 

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Ed O said:
I tried to find links to when he "spit at fans" but I think you might be mixing up him spitting at Danny Ferry? If I'm mistaken, forgive me and please provide a link or at least a date.

Bonzi's comment to SI: December, 2001.
Bonzi's allegedly spitting at Ferry: November, 2002.
Bonzi cursing at Cheeks: November 17, 2003.
Bonzi traded: December 4, 2003.

Ed O.
I think somebody got mixed up. Wells spit at a player and flipped off fans at the RG. I think it was also in November of 2003. It was the incident where he claimed to have blacked out.

Also, to be fair, you can't leave out when he repeatedly called Troy Murphy a 'cracker'.
 

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Bonzi spit at Danny Ferry......


He also got into that confronation with Chris Mills after the Warriors game in the Bay area.....Mills was waiting for him by the bus after the game....
 

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zagsfan20 said:
He also got into that confronation with Chris Mills after the Warriors game in the Bay area.....Mills was waiting for him by the bus after the game....
I watched that game as it happened. For the life of me I still can't figure out how Mills was only suspended 3 games. I can only imagine how many games Wells (or any Blazer really) would have been suspended for acting the same way. His ridiculous actions after the game was over sparked the ugliest crowd behavior this side of the Detroit-Pacers bru-ha... completely unwarrented behavior.

Why in the world are you listing Chris Mills acting like an out of control goon as if thats to be held against Wells?

Anyways, Bonzi certainly was not a perfect role model in Portland and did act like a jerk on several occations, but IMO thats the entitled pro athlete for you. Not that I want that sort of bleep, but I do sort of expect it... it's going to happen again. But anyways here's another person/player pointing out that it's the local media doing their normal piling on job that is at least part of the problem in Portland.

STOMP
 

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Ed O said:
What do those things have to do with him being traded? Very little, compared to his blowup with Cheeks.
It had everything to do with him being traded. The blowup with Cheeks is nothing, Miles did that but hasn't gotten traded because Miles didn't spit at fans, flip them off, talk badly about them in a popular sports magazine, yelled racial slurs, and so on.

If you think that he was traded because of earlier incidents, you're kidding yourself. The Blazers could have traded him at any time before the Cheeks blowup, and they almost certainly would have received more value.
Nash and company know that it is not that big of a deal to have a fuss with your coach. It's like any of us having a fuss with one of our employers, not that big of a deal. His priors is what had his what really did him in. You don't spit at fans and disrespect them, they are the reason why you are here. He did this repeatedly. The Cheeks blowup was only the last straw, he wouldn't have been traded if he hadn't had any priors. I can care less about the fuss with Cheeks, that's natural.

The earlier incidents caused the Blazers to have a shorter leash with Bonzi, naturally. They thought that trading him would appease the PR-hungry element of the fan base.
Of course but that wasn't the only factor. Him playing poorly in his last season with us was detrimental to him solidifying himself as a future Blazer, not to mention the repeated disrespect to fans/media/ethnicities.

The Blazers moved Wells in spite of him being at his low point (to date) in his NBA career and in spite of Mo Cheeks having clear coaching and personality flaws that seem to attract this sort of treatment.
You may be right, but under any coach Bonzi was going to continue these antics. He needed a move away from Portland, that was for sure. Not because of his beefs with Cheeks but the city and organization just got tired of him, it would be one thing if he was a borderline all-star, but he wasn't. At least Rasheed was a very good player for us throughout all his seasons with us, and at least he didn't spit or flip off fans and make racial slurs at people.

Hap might show the "dead horse" image, and to some extent that's a fair criticisim of my arguments, but the one like Sambonius made just doesn't hold any water with me because it seems like some are ignoring all the evidence that's emerged since the trade and are unwilling to even contemplate that the Blazers made a bad decision.
Do I think trading him for what we did was a bad decision? Absolutely not, it wasn't him that made us a playoff team, it was Rasheed. With or without Bonzi we would be the same. You don't want the type of personality Bonzi has to pollute the younger guys, you just don't. It's already been speculated that Bonzi got this behavior from Rasheed, I don't know how much of that is true but it wasn't a bad trade. You can't even determine that yet considering we haven't even seen Monia play.
 

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Ed O said:
As opposed to what we have now?

And I don't see why a "total meltdown" was inevitable. The team had won games consistently with a lot of pains in the butt before the Wells-Cheeks incident...

Paul Allen decided to go in another direction, no doubt. PatterNash were given the mandate to change and the authority to make changes.

Setting aside whether Allen SHOULD have gone in the new direction, I think that PatterNash pulled the trigger at the wrong time with Wells, and I think that the Cheeks incident was the catalyst for that.

Ed O.
Ed, you are only looking at only the basketball side of things and totally ignoring the importance of the team's image in the community. While as a fan that's certainly your prerogative, Blazers management and ownership has to consider the value of its reputation in continuing to market its product and sell tickets. Also, I think you are giving too much of the credit for the Blazers' past success to the pain in the butt players. Guys like Pippen, Sabonis, Steve Smith, etc. had as much or more to do with that success than did Bonzi or Sheed. The record last fall before the trades shows that the team was in decline simply due to the loss of some of those other guys. Would this team be better than it is now if we still had Sheed and Bonzi? Probably. Would this team be better than it is now if we hadn't had all of the injuries this year? Probably. Would either version challenge for a title? Highly doubtful.
 

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Sambonius said:
It had everything to do with him being traded. The blowup with Cheeks is nothing, Miles did that but hasn't gotten traded because Miles didn't spit at fans, flip them off, talk badly about them in a popular sports magazine, yelled racial slurs, and so on.
#1: Please point out when and where he spat at fans. I might be having a brain cramp, or you might be making stuff up. Either way, I'd like to know for sure whether he did or did not do it.

#2: Cheeks got fired after the Miles incident. The team, perhaps, noticed that Cheeks was an issue that could be dealt with. At the time, they and many fans thought that Bonzi was the problem. I'm wondering if that's the case.

Nash and company know that it is not that big of a deal to have a fuss with your coach. It's like any of us having a fuss with one of our employers, not that big of a deal. His priors is what had his what really did him in. You don't spit at fans and disrespect them, they are the reason why you are here. He did this repeatedly. The Cheeks blowup was only the last straw, he wouldn't have been traded if he hadn't had any priors. I can care less about the fuss with Cheeks, that's natural.
So you think it's COINCIDENTAL that Wells was traded almost immediately after his confrontation with Cheeks, rather than following the Ferry incident, or after the SI article? Or the summer before the 03-04 season?

I find that impossible to believe.

I also find it very hard to believe that the Grizzlies upped their offer as the result of the Wells/Cheeks situation... it's possible that they kept their offer firm (although it seems the Grizzlies would have reduced it, based on the Wells's behavior). The Blazers asking price simply dropped... understandably but regretably.

If the Blazers were going to let a relatively minor incident with Mo Cheeks push them into trading him, they should have traded him over the summer when the offers were presumably better.

Of course but that wasn't the only factor. Him playing poorly in his last season with us was detrimental to him solidifying himself as a future Blazer, not to mention the repeated disrespect to fans/media/ethnicities.
He didn't play poorly his final FULL season with us. He played poorly his final 13 games or so, but the year before (in spite of a horrible start after a lengthy contract negotiation) he was actually pretty good.

Do I think trading him for what we did was a bad decision? Absolutely not, it wasn't him that made us a playoff team, it was Rasheed. With or without Bonzi we would be the same.
Do you want me to recite the Blazers' record immediately following the Wells deal? Rasheed was healthy, and while I agree he was a critical component to the Blazers' playoff chances, when the Blazers traded their only healthy 2 guard the team went in the tank.

It's already been speculated that Bonzi got this behavior from Rasheed, I don't know how much of that is true but it wasn't a bad trade. You can't even determine that yet considering we haven't even seen Monia play.
I don't know how my wife is going to look tomorrow, but I know that she's beautiful today. Should I not say she's beautiful because I haven't seen her tomorrow?

Of course we can judge the trade right now. It might not be a final analysis, but when would that be? When Bonzi and Monya are retired?

Sergei might be an excellent player, and I certainly hope he is, but we know that Bonzi's absence cost us wins last year, and it almost certainly cost us the playoffs. While Monya's emergence might change the value of the trade to the Blazers eventually that chance needs to be significantly discounted based on the fact that it hasn't happened and might never come to pass.

Ed O.
 

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e_blazer1 said:
Ed, you are only looking at only the basketball side of things and totally ignoring the importance of the team's image in the community. While as a fan that's certainly your prerogative, Blazers management and ownership has to consider the value of its reputation in continuing to market its product and sell tickets.
Again, I ask you: as opposed to now?

Are tickets being sold at a higher rate, or are advertisers coming back?

Has PatterNash lost enough on the golf course to Mr. Tonkin to have him buying a luxury box again?

If the team was losing, but the city loved it, I would concede this point. But the team is losing and the city still doesn't like it. Why wouldn't fans who want a winner be concerned about this?

One thing that is in your favor is hope... hope that the team's image will get better. Hope that the team will win games.

Hope is worth something, no doubt. It's worth less to me in this case than it appears to be to some of you.

Also, I think you are giving too much of the credit for the Blazers' past success to the pain in the butt players. Guys like Pippen, Sabonis, Steve Smith, etc. had as much or more to do with that success than did Bonzi or Sheed.
I respectfully disagree. The team won 49 games in 2001-02. No Sabonis. No Steve Smith. Pippen missed 20 games.

Pippen was very, very important to the team's success. Sabas and Smith were nice pieces but not as valuable as Rasheed and I don't think that Smith was as valuable as Bonzi (although I believe that Sabas was).

The record last fall before the trades shows that the team was in decline simply due to the loss of some of those other guys.
The team was 8-7 when Bonzi was traded. They had started off the previous seasons 7-8 and 8-7. I don't think that the pre-Bonzi trade record was enough games to judge a franchise downturn (considering the way they'd battled Dallas to 7 games), but even if 15 games WAS enough of a sample size, it wasn't a significant step down from the previous two seasons.

Ed O.
 

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Ed O said:
Again, I ask you: as opposed to now?
Sorry, but IMO, that's the wrong question. The more important question is: as opposed to next year or the year after that? We're looking to the future, not the past. As far as this year goes, I maintain that the Blazers would be in contention for one of the last playoff spots this year if it hadn't been for all of the injuries, especially those to Zach and Shareef. That said, there is no reason that this team can't be in a position to compete next year for a playoff spot if a trade or two is made over the summer. In a couple of years, as the young guys mature, they'll be ready to challenge to go further. Best of all, they'll be in that position without having as many guys on the roster who consistently draw bad press.
 
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