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hihofink said:
Collins lacks three qualities that I would want in a starting PF.

First, he struggles to finish at the rim. No disrespect, but he may be the most blocked player in the league. When he goes up for a layup in traffic its a bonus if the basketball goes in the hoop. Now the Nets do not need a scorer from their 4, but that 4 needs to be able to finish at the rim....especially with great passers in Carter and Kidd.

Secondly, although Collins does box out, he does not go up and grab rebounds.....I forget the quote that K-Mart once said, but he refered to something charles barkley once told him. Not to just box out, but go up and grab the basketball before anyone else.

Krstic and Collins may be the worst rebounding PF/C combination...and although Collins boxes out very well, if Krstic is the starting center, then the starting PF must be able to go up and grab rebounds. 6.5 boards per game from the PF slot is not good enough if the starting center only grabs 6 boards too.

Lastly, Collins needs to be able to stick that 15 jump shot consistantly....and although he has improved it, he has not been consistant this season.

On a side note, Collins defense is becoming overated by Nets fan. He is a very good defender. He is not great. His defense is not the level of K-mart. So defense from the PF position can be improved. Collins does not deserve defensive honors. Duncan, Wallace, Wallace, K-mart, Garnett, Okafor, Camby, Kirilenko, Murphy are just the PF off the top of my head that are better defenders than Collins....

so although a very good defender. It is still a quality that could possibly be upgraded in the offeseason.

Solid points, all of them. Not sure about Murphy, though. And Collins is a different type of defender. He relies on positioning, while most of the above rely on athleticism. So he does more with his tools than most.

Some people will take your list and just say "He sucks" though. Some of us know that there's a lot more to the game of basketball than the above, and that it's those things, and his experience with the Nets system that give him and advantage over most big men that you could bring in next season. Not to mention that he is still a very good defender that has knocked some big names off their game this season.
 

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NetIncome said:
It's a foregone conclusion? Says who? Unless the Nets come up with Shareef Abdur Rahim, EVERY other suggested player, from Swift [no BBIQ, lousy defense], Marshall [bench player supreme], to possible draft choices will NOT dislodge Collins from his starting position...period. Deal with it.
Have you ever watched Stromile Swift play? He is a hell of a defender, on and off the ball. He's ridiculously better than Jason Collins on both sides of the ball, and you can be damn sure Frank would start him if we had him.
Get this straight: next year's team with RJ and an improving Krstic can afford the luxury of a player who doesn't put up big numbers yet defends the hell out of the opposition team's big guys. Lots of teams, good teams, have had defensive specialists. It's too bad that Collins doesn't match the fantasy of many fans. He is effective.
Get this straight: It isn't Collin's defense we are complaining about. It's fine to have a big man who focuses primarily on defense and rebounding in the starting line-up. Catch is, he can't be horrible at one of those things and also a complete black hole offensively. 6.2 rebounds from a 7 footer who plays 32 MPG primarily for his DEFENSE is absolutely ridiculous. And you can try to justify it with all this, "he's excellent at blocking out his man" (which is heavily, heavily debatable, I might add) horse ****, but that still dosen't change the fact that he isn't going up and getting the ball. Good rebounders take rebounds away from other teams, they don't just prevent their own man from grabbing them. Offensively, Jason is inept. His simply being on the court hurts the Nets offensively. Collin's lack of mobility, his horrendous finishing at the basket, and his poor jumpshot severely limits the sets the Nets are able to run. Having a threat like Swift or SA, who the other team would actually have to pay attention to, would do wonders for this offense. Imagine if we had a big man who, when he set a screen, he might be relied on to role to the basket, and catch and finish the ball cleanly. (a relatively simple offensive play, that almost all big man in the NBA can execute) Or, when he caught the ball at 15 feet, would force the defense to pay just a LITTLE bit of attention to him, in fear that he might MAYBE make an offensive move. It isn't that Collins dosen't give us anything offensively, it's that he HURTS us.
You think Kidd is lieing when he says Collins should be on the all-Defensive team, that it's just words?
He's either talking out of his ***, mistaking hacking for good defense, or is just plain wrong. Collins is solid on his man defensively, just because he's so physical, and the refs, for some reason, let him get away with it. Much of the time, they don't, and that's why he averages 4 fouls a game. Besides that, he makes virtually no impact off the ball. Collins challenges very few shots off his man, because he does not have the mobility to make the rotation quickly enough. That isn't acceptable from a big man who earns his minutes for his supposed defensive prowess.
The Nets need a bench. The Nets need a bench. Abdur-Rahim would be great.
Yes, I certainly agree. The Nets need a bench. Swift or Abdur-Rahim would be great. Donyell would also be a huge improvement.
I hope we get him, but short of that, this is a team, a coach, a GM who likes having Collins on the floor.
Then this is an organization who likes losing.

EDIT: hifofink makes a lot of the same points I do. Good post.
 

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NetIncome said:
The Nets need a bench. The Nets need a bench. Abdur-Rahim would be great. I hope we get him, but short of that, this is a team, a coach, a GM who likes having Collins on the floor.
Best way to strengthen the bench is to move Collins there, where he belongs. He'd be a perfect first big guy off the bench. His inability to finish at the hoop means he cannot be the primary PF option on any team who wants to win a championship. To win it all, you have to defeat all the teams that can and have rendered him useless offensively. If he's the best we've got at the 4, we're toast.
 

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schub said:
I pretty much agree. Collins has been a starter here for quite a while now, and there's a reason for that. Despite the flack he gets from the message boards, he is valued highly by Frank and the Nets. It will take a very good player to unseat him as a starter.
Don't go to the dark side, man.
 

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NetIncome said:
He did a nice job on Nowitzki the last time the two teams played, holding him to six points below his average. The single most underrated aspect of Collins game is that his defense IMPROVES all the time.

Players who killed him the first time around wind up being surprised the second and third time. Look at Yao Ming who Collins OWNS...the last four games over two years...10 points, 9 points, 6 points, 6 points. Someone posted that Yao has bad shooting nights against Collins...yes he has and there's a reason for that.
Yes he has good games. Yes he is a valuable player. This, however, doesn't mean he's good enough to be a starter. He completely disappears offensively on a regular, regular basis. For long stretches of the season, it has been more often than not. That's mediocrity. We need better than that at the 4 if we want to be a legitimate championship contender.
 

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tr_west said:
That's Nbadraft.net's description of Charlie Villanueva, it seems to me that's what hihofink thinks we need. He's 6'11 and has a ton of potential if we can get him to play with some heart. But I think he's worth the risk of drafting. TALENT wise he reminds me of Kenyon Martin (not the same energy though)
Even if Villaneuva is going to be all that he is made out to be in the NBA, he still would be a poor fit for the Nets. He's a versatile tweener who really isn't strong enough to hold his own down low. Think of a weaker Lamar Odom who plays below average defense in the post. The Nets did a blue collar guy who can rebound, defend and score the occassional basket. Sean May would be a great fit for this team. If the Nets are going to draft by need they may even think of taking Wayne Simien with a mid first round pick. Incredible athlete, ferocious on the boards, has a game quite similar to KMart.


NetIncome said:
Donyell Marshall has started ONE game for the Raptors this season...ONE.
Surely you're not comparing Chris Bosh with Jason Collins?
 

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Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:
Even if Villaneuva is going to be all that he is made out to be in the NBA, he still would be a poor fit for the Nets. He's a versatile tweener who really isn't strong enough to hold his own down low. Think of a weaker Lamar Odom who plays below average defense in the post. The Nets did a blue collar guy who can rebound, defend and score the occassional basket. Sean May would be a great fit for this team. If the Nets are going to draft by need they may even think of taking Wayne Simien with a mid first round pick. Incredible athlete, ferocious on the boards, has a game quite similar to KMart.




Surely you're not comparing Chris Bosh with Jason Collins?
MAY WON'T DECLARE and he's not a great post-defender anyway. He does have GREAT hands, he simply catches everything.

I agree about Charlie. His low post defense and strength is certenly not what we need. However, Im exited about his attitude and feel to fast-breaks, but it won't make up for his weaknesses. Boone (if he declares), Taft ot Shelden Williams are the best fits.
 

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7M3 said:
Have you ever watched Stromile Swift play? He is a hell of a defender, on and off the ball. He's ridiculously better than Jason Collins on both sides of the ball, and you can be damn sure Frank would start him if we had him.

Get this straight: It isn't Collin's defense we are complaining about. It's fine to have a big man who focuses primarily on defense and rebounding in the starting line-up. Catch is, he can't be horrible at one of those things and also a complete black hole offensively. 6.2 rebounds from a 7 footer who plays 32 MPG primarily for his DEFENSE is absolutely ridiculous. And you can try to justify it with all this, "he's excellent at blocking out his man" (which is heavily, heavily debatable, I might add) horse ****, but that still dosen't change the fact that he isn't going up and getting the ball. Good rebounders take rebounds away from other teams, they don't just prevent their own man from grabbing them. Offensively, Jason is inept. His simply being on the court hurts the Nets offensively. Collin's lack of mobility, his horrendous finishing at the basket, and his poor jumpshot severely limits the sets the Nets are able to run. Having a threat like Swift or SA, who the other team would actually have to pay attention to, would do wonders for this offense. Imagine if we had a big man who, when he set a screen, he might be relied on to role to the basket, and catch and finish the ball cleanly. (a relatively simple offensive play, that almost all big man in the NBA can execute) Or, when he caught the ball at 15 feet, would force the defense to pay just a LITTLE bit of attention to him, in fear that he might MAYBE make an offensive move. It isn't that Collins dosen't give us anything offensively, it's that he HURTS us.

He's either talking out of his ***, mistaking hacking for good defense, or is just plain wrong. Collins is solid on his man defensively, just because he's so physical, and the refs, for some reason, let him get away with it. Much of the time, they don't, and that's why he averages 4 fouls a game. Besides that, he makes virtually no impact off the ball. Collins challenges very few shots off his man, because he does not have the mobility to make the rotation quickly enough. That isn't acceptable from a big man who earns his minutes for his supposed defensive prowess.

Yes, I certainly agree. The Nets need a bench. Swift or Abdur-Rahim would be great. Donyell would also be a huge improvement.

Then this is an organization who likes losing.

EDIT: hifofink makes a lot of the same points I do. Good post.
Wow, I agreed with your post. I might even like you soon :biggrin:
However, IMO the differense between Marshall and SAR in our system OFFENSIVELY will be little to none. On defense, Marshall can play some nice defense down low and he can hit the 3 ball consistently. His presence will make things much easier for Kidd, Carter and Jefferson. He can spread the floor and when the D shrinks he can make it pay for it and hit the deep ball.

I agree about Collins' D. He's very slow and doesn't react quickly. His very physical (most of the case he's fouling), and that's the reason why he's considered such a good defender by most of you (Nets fans). I think he doesn't worth his contract and I would trade him if i could. Cliff can easily make up for Collins' "great D". If we do get Marshall (or SAR), we'll rebound much better but I think that another strong rebounder will get it done completely. Gadzuric is my choise, and a front-court of Krstic, Gadzuric, Cliff, Marshall/SAR and Shelden Williams/Josh Boone/Chris Taft will be much better IMO.

About our bench- of course we need a better bench, but our starting PF spot (or to be more specific Collins) is the biggest problem right now. Infact, not only we should get a starting PF from free agency (Marshall/SAR), we should also draft another PF in the draft since the problem is so deep. Like I mentioned before, the leading candidates are Boone, Taft and Williams and I'm sure we can pick one of them from the 10th pick. After that, we should think about our bench because without taking care of the PF problem we won't have a chance of winning the title. Like I said, Vaughn and Best were somewhat decent backups so we can keep them, but there're really not backups for RJ and VC. Devin Brown/Raja Bell/Healthy KK can be a good, not expensive backup and I think we should make a run at Eric Williams because Toronto is trying to cut salaries and we can offer them a TE.
 

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SeaNet said:
Don't go to the dark side, man.
Just being realistic. Twin has been here for 4 years, and has started for 3. They invested a lot of money in him last summer. His intangibles are worth a lot in this system.

It would be hard not to start Abdur-Rahim, but getting him seems very unlikely. As I said, Marshall might be a better fit as a go-to guy for the 2nd unit. He would definitely see time with the 1st unut, but I don't him as an obvious starter over Collins.

Swift? He's surely athletic, but what has he done to prove he's a starter for a contending team? His last 3 games: DNP-CD, 2 min, 10 min. Something seems amiss there.
 

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schub said:
Just being realistic. Twin has been here for 4 years, and has started for 3. They invested a lot of money in him last summer. His intangibles are worth a lot in this system.

It would be hard not to start Abdur-Rahim, but getting him seems very unlikely. As I said, Marshall might be a better fit as a go-to guy for the 2nd unit. He would definitely see time with the 1st unut, but I don't him as an obvious starter over Collins.

Swift? He's surely athletic, but what has he done to prove he's a starter for a contending team? His last 3 games: DNP-CD, 2 min, 10 min. Something seems amiss there.
You have to be either stupid or VERY stupid to start Collins over Marshall.
 

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X-JAY said:
You have to be either stupid or VERY stupid to start Collins over Marshall.

Marshall will come off the bench because he can't defend like Twin does. With RJ, Kidd, and Carter on the floor we don't need a 4th shooter. Marshall would be a great 6th man.
 

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schub said:
Care to actually make a point that addresses my reasons?
I didn't mean that you are stupid. I meant that if a coach start Collins over Marshall he's crazy.

I know that you think that Marshall will play his best as a G2G off the bench, and that he will be a great 6th man, and even if it's true, it's sad to see Collins play PF. Marshall is simply a much better player and Collins is not a PF. It won't solve our rebounding problems, too.
 

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marshall has been a starter pretty much in every season except for this one. i think he prefers to go to another team because he can get more minutes...he may make a good 6th man, but he prefers to start.
 

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KingofNewark said:
Marshall will come off the bench because he can't defend like Twin does. With RJ, Kidd, and Carter on the floor we don't need a 4th shooter. Marshall would be a great 6th man.
Twin is such a great defender. Marshall can play some nice low post D, and he's a MUCH MUCH better offensive player and rebounder.
 

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fruitcake said:
marshall has been a starter pretty much in every season except for this one. i think he prefers to go to another team because he can get more minutes...he may make a good 6th man, but he prefers to start.
Another point I support. Do you guys think that he will be very exited about coming off the bench?
 

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hihofink said:
Collins lacks three qualities that I would want in a starting PF.

First, he struggles to finish at the rim. No disrespect, but he may be the most blocked player in the league. When he goes up for a layup in traffic its a bonus if the basketball goes in the hoop. Now the Nets do not need a scorer from their 4, but that 4 needs to be able to finish at the rim....especially with great passers in Carter and Kidd.
I don't know how we can win with a PF that scores with such low percentages, that is 2/3 baskets 4/6 points a night we lose...

-Petey
 
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