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X-Mas Taker
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Discussion Starter #21
Sagarin's statistical measures (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nba/sagarin/) ranks the Bulls #9 in the league overall, as of today FWIW. We've floated between #7 and #12 for most of the year. Alot of shuffling though due to the crazy parity in team performance thus far from #3 (OKC) through #18 (Orlando). Of course as Cleveland gets healthy I think they'll stand out from the crowd to round out the top 3 of GS, SA, and CLE. Which were the no-brainer top 3 ranked teams heading into the season.
that metric today has them at 18th
 

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X-Mas Taker
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Discussion Starter #22
maybe , history tends to tell this ,

if you are really good at something after 15-20 games, you'll be good at it all season, the same for things a team is bad at ....

its probably a pretty safe bet the bulls will finish in the top 10 defensively and the bottom 10 offensively, unless injuries greatly alter the bulls or the league I feel pretty confident of that

which leaves them a rather average team even though they supposedly have above average talent.

we will see.
10th on defense
25th on offense
101.2 points a game
101.9 points allowed a game

but 2nd in attendance so I guess its not so bad
 

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What happens?

Paxson lkeeps his job.
Gar probably does as well, but a bit less likely than Paxson.
Hoiberg keeps his job.

Bulls are still one of the top teams in attendance next year.
 

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Pretty much. The repetitive garbage that is just spewed by this front office tells me that ownership could care less about titles, as long as they keep bringing in the money.

No sense of urgency is a result of an owner who is hands off. The damn near life long contact's that Reinsdorf honors gives guys like Garpax a sense of professional immortality.

It's all about that money. Jerry would be happy if we make that 8th seed and play 2 free home games.
 

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What happens?

Paxson lkeeps his job.
Gar probably does as well, but a bit less likely than Paxson.
Hoiberg keeps his job.
If they miss the playoffs, I think there's a reasonable chance Gar is gone. I agree with you there's no way Reinsdorf cans Pax, and it would be utterly shocking to see the Bulls can Hoiberg and potentially be paying 2 coaches to sit out simultaneously.

Bulls are still one of the top teams in attendance next year.
Yup. Though a lot of that is probably just being the largest single market for a basketball team in the country (NY and LA are divided among 2 teams apiece).

I seem to remember a back-and-forth years ago with you where you indicated you weren't going to give up your tickets to the team, despite your severe distaste for how the franchise was being managed, because your kid enjoyed going to games with you. I'm not critical of that. I only mention it to point out that Bulls games are marketed as family and corporate entertainment products. If they were utterly miserable, attendance might drop off some, but ticket sales were remarkably durable in the gloom and doom post-MJ years. The Bulls and other NBA franchises do whatever they can to market the game "experience" as something more than just the basketball product on the floor.
 

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Pretty much. The repetitive garbage that is just spewed by this front office tells me that ownership could care less about titles, as long as they keep bringing in the money.

No sense of urgency is a result of an owner who is hands off. The damn near life long contact's that Reinsdorf honors gives guys like Garpax a sense of professional immortality.

It's all about that money. Jerry would be happy if we make that 8th seed and play 2 free home games.

Ehh, I'm angry, too, at the lack of activity at the deadline, but you and I both know that the notion that ownership "could[n't] care less about titles, as long as they keep bringing in the money" isn't fully accurate. The most profitable thing the team could do is win an NBA championship. That would be a massively, massively profitable outcome.

The real issue may just be risk-aversion. The Bulls don't want to suck (and lose profits) to try to maximize draft assets and rebuild to become a contender again. They are more like Dallas (which is actually one of the few non-profit-driven teams given the unique-ish ownership situation) that wants to stay relatively competitive at all times in order to lure free agents and be able to rebuild quickly. Now, if you want to argue that's not the way to build a team, sure, that's a perfectly fair position. But the team obviously wants championships, even if they aren't going about it the right way.

I do agree that Reinsdorf is loyal to his guys to a fault, but there has been enough newspaper chatter about Gar being on the hotseat that I quite doubt he thinks his job is safe. That, and I seem to recall reports that Gar was basically told with the Hoiberg hire that this was his last shot at finding a coach that would lead the team to success, but maybe I'm just regurgitating message board chatter on that.
 

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I don't know that ownership doesn't care about championships. For one, the owner himself said he would trade all the bulls championships for one world series championship.

Second, the bulls haven't even come close to even reaching the finals since Jordan retired. Shit, there is no doubt NO doubt in my mind that this franchise would have never sniffed a title if it wasn't for Jordan.

It's not about being angry, it's about being fed up with a franchise so content with being mediocre. It's about being fed up with the embarrassment that is this front office.
 

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I don't know that ownership doesn't care about championships. For one, the owner himself said he would trade all the bulls championships for one world series championship.

Second, the bulls haven't even come close to even reaching the finals since Jordan retired. Shit, there is no doubt NO doubt in my mind that this franchise would have never sniffed a title if it wasn't for Jordan.

It's not about being angry, it's about being fed up with a franchise so content with being mediocre. It's about being fed up with the embarrassment that is this front office.

Ehh, this is just venting, it's not really addressing whether the org wants to win. It obviously does. It just may not have the right way of achieving it, because it views the 2nd best option as being a non-contending playoff team rather than a bottom-feeder that amasses picks.

The no titles without Jordan thing isn't much of a point. Take the greatest player off of any title team and it's not a title team anymore.

I agree with you that the FO is responsible for the roster and the coach and should be held accountable. I'm only disagreeing that there isn't an interest in winning a championship, which is obviously false.
 

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I don't know that ownership doesn't care about championships. For one, the owner himself said he would trade all the bulls championships for one world series championship.

Second, the bulls haven't even come close to even reaching the finals since Jordan retired. Shit, there is no doubt NO doubt in my mind that this franchise would have never sniffed a title if it wasn't for Jordan.

It's not about being angry, it's about being fed up with a franchise so content with being mediocre. It's about being fed up with the embarrassment that is this front office.

Ehh, this is just venting, it's not really addressing whether the org wants to win. It obviously does. It just may not have the right way of achieving it, because it views the 2nd best option as being a non-contending playoff team rather than a bottom-feeder that amasses picks.

The no titles without Jordan thing isn't much of a point. Take the greatest player off of any title team and it's not a title team anymore.

I agree with you that the FO is responsible for the roster and the coach and should be held accountable. I'm only disagreeing that there isn't an interest in winning a championship, which is obviously false.
Do I think they say the want to win a title? Sure. Do I think the bulls are one of the few franchises in all of basketball that lose sleep over losing and not competing for titles? Nope.

You basically say that their desire to win a title shouldn't be questioned.... Ok, but nothing they have done resembles what championship caliber teams do. Constant salary dump trades, constant "oh we don't have an injury free year" excuse, constantly bringing back flawed teams to repeat the pointless circle.

The Lakers have won 5 titles since losing their greatest player (Magic), The Celtics won 2 since Bird retired, The Pistons won after the end of the badboys, The Spurs won with and without Robinson, the Cavalier's were able to get Lebron twice lol. Don't give me that lame ass excuse. Great franchises do whatever it takes to get back to greatness.

Again, I never said the organization doesn't want to win. They just don't have a top to bottom urgency to win a title. They are in the business in lucking into situations and juicing those situations till there is nothing left.

They lucked into Jordan, they lucked into Rose, they lucked into Thibs and have never EVER been considered a visionary front office. Those are facts. So I'm sorry if my well supported views on this front office doesn't gel with your feelings on the front office.
 

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Do I think they say the want to win a title? Sure. Do I think the bulls are one of the few franchises in all of basketball that lose sleep over losing and not competing for titles? Nope.
You think only a few franchises in basketball care about winning titles? Weird.

You basically say that their desire to win a title shouldn't be questioned.... Ok, but nothing they have done resembles what championship caliber teams do. Constant salary dump trades, constant "oh we don't have an injury free year" excuse, constantly bringing back flawed teams to repeat the pointless circle.
I don't say it shouldn't be questioned. I say that if you believe their primary motivation is profits, championships are very profitable, so criticizing them for money-grubbing doesn't necessarily support your argument that they don't want to win titles.

I like that you say championship caliber teams don't salary dump. Cleveland just executed a salary dump yesterday. Miami just executed a salary dump yesterday. Oklahoma City just executed a salary dump yesterday. The Houston Rockets just executed a salary dump yesterday.

So, teams with championship aspirations don't engage in salary dumps, right? Riiiiiight.

And I agree with you that constantly bringing back flawed rosters is bad. The Bulls have not "constantly" done that. This is the 2nd season of this incarnation of the Bulls. If Gar was actually telling the truth yesterday and not just blowing smoke because it would be GM malpractice to say anything different when he said the team wants Pau and Noah both back, then yeah, I'd agree that would be nuts. But I don't believe the team actually does want both of those guys back. If they did somehow bring both back next year, I'll be with you in the streets with pitchforks and torches.

I'm still pissed about the lack of meaningful activity yesterday, but your particular points are just way off the mark.

The Lakers have won 5 titles since losing their greatest player (Magic), The Celtics won 2 since Bird retired, The Pistons won after the end of the badboys, The Spurs won with and without Robinson, the Cavalier's were able to get Lebron twice lol. Don't give me that lame ass excuse. Great franchises do whatever it takes to get back to greatness.
The Spurs have not won without Duncan, which is actually the meaningful point you should cite, so they can be thrown out as an example.

The Lakers drafted Kobe and acquired Shaq. They have performed better than the Bulls, obviously. They are now a dumpster fire, FWIW, but I'd take some dumpster fire years if I also got more championships.

The Pistons did sneak one. That was nice.

You should probably note the Cavaliers have won 0 NBA championships, so perhaps that's not your best example. But yes, they were lucky enough to draft the hometown superstar in a obvious #1 pick, lose his best years, and then convince him to come back for both PR, emotional, and competitive reasons. I'm sure the Bulls would have signed him if he were from Chicago. He's not. GarPax is clearly losing the OBGYN recruiting competition.

Again, I never said the organization doesn't want to win. They just don't have a top to bottom urgency to win a title. They are in the business in lucking into situations and juicing those situations till there is nothing left.

They lucked into Jordan, they lucked into Rose, they lucked into Thibs and have never EVER been considered a visionary front office. Those are facts. So I'm sorry if my well supported views on this front office doesn't gel with your feelings on the front office.
Ha, your "well supported" views are pretty ridiculous as expressed above. They didn't luck into Jordan. They were bad, had a high draft pick, and drafted him. This is the most common means of superstar acquisition in the NBA. They were "lucky" to get the slot to draft Rose, but in hindsight, I'm not sure you should be describing that as good luck.

They didn't "luck" into Thibs at all. That's just asinine. The dude was in his 50s and no other NBA team wanted to give him a head coaching job! He was considered here one time, then they stupidly hired VDN instead, and guess what? Thibs was still available years later when VDN was fired!

Lucked into him. Sheesh. One of the more out-there things I've seen someone post, and it's been thirteen years on this site.
 

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I seem to remember a back-and-forth years ago with you where you indicated you weren't going to give up your tickets to the team, despite your severe distaste for how the franchise was being managed, because your kid enjoyed going to games with you. I'm not critical of that. I only mention it to point out that Bulls games are marketed as family and corporate entertainment products. If they were utterly miserable, attendance might drop off some, but ticket sales were remarkably durable in the gloom and doom post-MJ years. The Bulls and other NBA franchises do whatever they can to market the game "experience" as something more than just the basketball product on the floor.
Going to Bulls games is certainly an entertainment purchase, much like a movie or a concert. And it is entertaining, they do a good job with that. Its a lot more fun when its a competitive product on the floor. But, hardcore fans like the ones that frequent message boards are the minority.

Krause got fired when the seats stopped selling. Their business model is sound, I will never dispute that. If they miss the playoffs this season, I suspect it won't be a long time occurrence. They will get back to the first round soon enough, if they miss this year.

This team is perfectly content do well enough in the regular season and make the first round of the playoffs. Given the fanbase, market, etc, they could set their sights higher for sure, with better upper management.
 

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You think only a few franchises in basketball care about winning titles? Weird.
They say they care, but there is no doubt that there are teams in the NBA that value titles more than other franchises. The bulls aren't one of them.

I don't say it shouldn't be questioned. I say that if you believe their primary motivation is profits, championships are very profitable, so criticizing them for money-grubbing doesn't necessarily support your argument that they don't want to win titles.
Yet for the longest time they refused to pay the luxury tax. Guess what, it costs money to win titles. Nothing they have done tells me that they value titles over money. If titles meant more than money, they would have tanked the season, because a higher draft pick gets them closer to a title, not another couple of months of Pau.

I like that you say championship caliber teams don't salary dump. Cleveland just executed a salary dump yesterday. Miami just executed a salary dump yesterday. Oklahoma City just executed a salary dump yesterday. The Houston Rockets just executed a salary dump yesterday.
So, teams with championship aspirations don't engage in salary dumps, right? Riiiiiight.
I said constant. The Bulls are the champions of the salary dump. Also, Cleveland added a shit ton last year.

The Spurs have not won without Duncan, which is actually the meaningful point you should cite, so they can be thrown out as an example.
And they would not have won their last title without Leonard or do you think Tim Duncan has been the best player on the Spurs during the current run?

The Lakers drafted Kobe and acquired Shaq. They have performed better than the Bulls, obviously. They are now a dumpster fire, FWIW, but I'd take some dumpster fire years if I also got more championships.
They actually acquired both. They traded Divacs to Charlotte to pick Kobe.


Ha, your "well supported" views are pretty ridiculous as expressed above. They didn't luck into Jordan. They were bad, had a high draft pick, and drafted him. This is the most common means of superstar acquisition in the NBA. They were "lucky" to get the slot to draft Rose, but in hindsight, I'm not sure you should be describing that as good luck.

They didn't "luck" into Thibs at all. That's just asinine. The dude was in his 50s and no other NBA team wanted to give him a head coaching job! He was considered here one time, then they stupidly hired VDN instead, and guess what? Thibs was still available years later when VDN was fired!

Lucked into him. Sheesh. One of the more out-there things I've seen someone post, and it's been thirteen years on this site.
Lol yeah, cause Portland not taking Jordan #2 isn't luck at all gtfo.

The only reason Thibs was even available a second time was because he didn't want to just coach anywhere. Heck if it wasn't for the colossal failure that was VDN Thibs might not have ever coached for the Bulls.
 
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