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I'm in Ballscientist thread mode tonight. One is considered a great GM the other a horrible one, but look at how they do in the draft-

Who do you go with?

Joe's resume-

2000- Mateen Cleaves (15th), Brian Cardinal (44th):

2001- Rodney White (9th), Mehment Okur (38th)

2002- Tayshaun Prince (23rd)

2003- Darko Millic (2nd), Carlos Delfino (25th), Andeas Glykeadeas (58th)

2004- Rickey Paulding (54th)

2005- Jason Maxiel (25th), Amir Johnson (57th), Alex Acker (60th)

Isiah-

1995- Damon Stoudamire (7th), Jimmy King (35th)
1996- Marcus Camby (2nd)
1997- Tracy McGrady (9th)
2004- Trevor Ariza (44th)
2005- Channing Frye (8th), Nate Robinson (16th)*, David Lee (30th)

*Rights traded on draft day

Dumars in the end is a better GM because he doesn't make bad (or excess) trades. His real ability is he signed Billups, Wallace and McDyess all in free agency to multi year deals starting around 5 million a year. While Thomas gives Jerome James, Jamal Crawford and Eddy Curry way too big of deals.
 
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Jamel Irief said:
I'm in Ballscientist thread mode tonight. One is considered a great GM the other a horrible one, but look at how they do in the draft-

Who do you go with?

Joe's resume-

2000- Mateen Cleaves (15th), Brian Cardinal (44th):

2001- Rodney White (9th), Mehment Okur (38th)

2002- Tayshaun Prince (23rd)

2003- Darko Millic (2nd), Carlos Delfino (25th), Andeas Glykeadeas (58th)

2004- Rickey Paulding (54th)

2005- Jason Maxiel (25th), Amir Johnson (57th), Alex Acker (60th)

Isiah-

1995- Damon Stoudamire (7th), Jimmy King (35th)
1996- Marcus Camby (2nd)
1997- Tracy McGrady (9th)
2004- Trevor Ariza (44th)
2005- Channing Frye (8th), Nate Robinson (16th)*, David Lee (30th)

*Rights traded on draft day

Dumars in the end is a better GM because he doesn't make bad (or excess) trades. His real ability is he signed Billups, Wallace and McDyess all in free agency to multi year deals starting around 5 million a year. While Thomas gives Jerome James, Jamal Crawford and Eddy Curry way too big of deals.
AND Joe Dumars's team is a perennial championship contendor
 

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15 STRONG
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I'd say Isiah has had better drafts, but Joe has put together better teams through free agency, and also inherited a better team.
 

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^ And even then, it's not like he was drafting late; his two best picks were a #2 and a #9 pick. Dumars knows how to build a team and keep it together within financial reason, Isiah doesn't have a freaking clue.
 

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I've never ever said anything bad about Isiah's drafting ability. Dude knows draft prospects. I like the Ariza, Lee, Robinson group he has in New York and Channing Frye, which I first thought he had reached for him, has impressed me this season (and to think I dropped him in the moderator fantasy league).
 

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definitely isiah. mcgrady alone puts him over the top. and then you got guys like ariza, robinson and frye coming out the woodwork, most of whom were frowned upon with dismissive glances. isiah just need an accountant on the team.
 

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Just about all of those isiah draft picks were traded away. i don't know if it was always him who did the trading, but it doesn't do a lot of good to draft good players if you don't keep them.

Dumars needs to hire a new scouting staff though.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
nugzhomer said:
Just about all of those isiah draft picks were traded away. i don't know if it was always him who did the trading, but it doesn't do a lot of good to draft good players if you don't keep them.

Dumars needs to hire a new scouting staff though.
The Raptors imploded and traded Mighty Mouse and Camby after Thomas abandoned them. McGrady walked out on his own.
 

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Dumars made some terrible draft picks his first few years as gm. To his credit he was able to fix some of those. He shipped rodney white out for a first rounder which was later used to get Sheed. He turned Mateen Cleaves into Jon Barry. He made some good picks like Prince and finding Memo in the second round. His most important draft pick has been Darko. This is where he gets the most heat there were some good players drafted after him like Wade. If Darko pans out it will all be good but if he doesn't that will go down as a huge draft day mistake.
 

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It's a lot easier to make good picks at 2 and 9 than it is at 23 and up.The big mistake Dumars made was in not trading the pick he used on Darko for someone who could make an immediate contribution.If you are playing for rings then you should play for rings and worry about the future when you are no longer capable of playing for rings.
 

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lol he should have taken carmelo like everyone expected they would (and who every other team in the league would have taken). i'm not going to be revisionist and say take wade because no one was picking him as a top 2 seed, but carmelo was expected to fall right after lebron.
 

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Nugz, picking Melo at 2 was almost not even an option. Had the Nuggets gotten the #2 pick, I guarentee Darko would be donning a baby-blue uniform today.

It's really hard to say who's the better drafter. It seems obvious it's Isiah, but remember, Isiah averages higher picks.
 

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nugzhomer said:
lol he should have taken carmelo like everyone expected they would (and who every other team in the league would have taken). i'm not going to be revisionist and say take wade because no one was picking him as a top 2 seed, but carmelo was expected to fall right after lebron.
At the time... getting Carmelo Anthony to play SF would have been an awesome idea. But now that we can look back on it all, I'd much rather have Tayshaun Prince than Carmelo Anthony on this particular team. Anthony has superstar potential... but Prince is the better fit on this team.


-Chris.
 

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nugzhomer said:
lol he should have taken carmelo like everyone expected they would (and who every other team in the league would have taken). i'm not going to be revisionist and say take wade because no one was picking him as a top 2 seed, but carmelo was expected to fall right after lebron.
You're being revisionist by saying people expected them to take Carmello. Darko was probably the 75% concensus #2. Denver really wanted a big man. So much so they seriously looked at Bosh #3. You have to know they would have taken Darko.

It's hard to judge different GM's as drafters as well. Yeah, it's easy to say look at Marcus Camby and Tracy McGrady - but it's not like those guys were real stretches. Most GM's are roughly on the same page as far as where to draft players. You can't exactly give a guy credit for taking someone (Camby) who, at the time, was pretty much considered the #1b pick. Nor can you slam a guy for taking someone (Darko) who was also considered a gold mine. (or ignore the fact that if you looked at Camby or McGrady after their first 2 years in the league they wouldn't look nearly as good as they do now, in McGrady's case the word bust would probably be invoked)

You also have to consider the situation the teams are in. A team like New York is looking to get any talent upgrade they can, where the Pistons are in tweaking mode where they have certain spots/roles they need filled.

Isiah also didn't have to draft in 2001 or 2000- 2 of the worst drafts ever. Joe made some bad picks in those years, but it's not like there was a lot of talent to be had. Rodney White went #9, but remember Eddie Griffin and Desagana Diop went #7 and #8. Those were very tough years on all GM's.

You kind of have to look at the later picks or picks that were surprising at the time to really judge this kind of thing.

Dumars got great value out of Tayshaun Prince and Mehmet Okur. The jury's out on Darko and Delfino, but both are looking like good players who just can't get minutes. The Max, Amir, Acker draft this past year could be really big in a couple years, all these guys look like they have bright futures.

Zeke got great value out of Ariza, made a smart trade for Robinson, and David Lee looks to be pretty solid value. He also reached for Channing Frye which some people didn't like but looks to be paying off.

I say the jury is still out. Isiah has had a lot more to work with (a top 10 pick every year except 1) but to his credit hasn't made any glaring mistakes. On the other hand he hasn't been able to find the late pick gems (Prince, Okur,...) like Dumars has.
 

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I say the jury is still out.
they have just reached verdict. the final decision? isiah as better drafter. its inarguable. you talk about how its easy to select good players at high spots, but then you look at slobs like kandi-man and kwame and you have to think twice.
 

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sherako said:
they have just reached verdict. the final decision? isiah as better drafter. its inarguable. you talk about how its easy to select good players at high spots, but then you look at slobs like kandi-man and kwame and you have to think twice.
Context.

Kwame was in a terrible draft. The 3 picks after him were Chandler, Gasol, and Eddy Curry. Three high schoolers and a european. Total crapshoot.

Now, there is this guy in college, he's 7 feet tall and averaged 22 points 11 rebounds and 3 blocks a game his junior year. And get this, he's only been playing basketball for 3 years. Clearly this guy is the #1 pick in the draft.

I can forgive teams for being so high on Michael Olowokandi.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I hate Isiah, but there is no denying this.

Every time Isiah has had a top ten pick he drafted a star (jury still out on Frye), though I think the Camby pick is overrated considering all the all-stars drafted after him (Walker, Marbury, Allen, Peja, Rahim, Kobe, Nash, O'Neal, Ben Wallace). Every player he drafted outside of the fab fiver looks like a rotation player in this league.

Dumars has had drafts where he didn't pluck a rotation player with a pick in the top half of the draft (Rodney and Mateen). Plus its not like solid players weren't available at that slot. I believe Desmond Mason and Jamal Magloire went before pick #20 in 2000. Joe Johnson was the pick right after Rodney White was he not?

Dumars is a better GM. Why can't we just accept that and admit he's the inferior drafter? Hell he inherited the team the summer Grant Hill ditched the team. This would of been like Allen Iverson leaving the Sixers 3 years ago. And he was able to pull Chucky Atkins and Ben Wallace for him on his way out.
 
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