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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The Pacers could really use Miller, but who would they have to give up to get him whithout giving too much or giving too little?

I think Tinsley and Artest would be good. Tinsley's got the potential to be nearly as good as Miller in a few years, while Artest is probaly the leagues best defender.
I think Tinsley and Bender could be alright, probaly too much though. So who else could go? I dont think Harringtons going to go, he's got to much going for him. There's Ron Mercer, a proven 20 ppg scorer when given the minutes. There's one of the NBAs top 5 center Brad Miller (Centers are very valuble so I'd like to see Brad stay, besides, a team with 3 Millers in the starting line up would be cool). What about Fred Jones or Jeff Foster? They both have decent potential. Well, we see the Pacers got plenty of young guys they could use to get Miller, but I don't want them to give up too much. Maybe It's best for Indiana to just stay the way they are and continue to develop into the elite team they will soon become.
 

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Tinsley+Artest too much? Don't think so...
It's more like Tinsley, Bender and Foster for Miller and filler.
But I also think that the Pacers should keep what they have, which is right nowone of the youngest rosters in the whole league, and be patient. They're gonna be in the playoffs for a long time.
 

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Tinsley's got the potential to be nearly as good as Miller in a few years
I think that when you see a certain team, you tend to overrate their players. I've done it before, and i think you're going it now. Tinsley will be a fine pg, but will never come close to Dre, who has the potential to be one of the best ever. When a 23 year old leads the league in assissts despite being on an awful team, you know he's something special. Also, there is no way Tinsley and Bender is too much to give up for Miller. If anything, it's not enough. Remeber, they were offered Odom and No.8 for the pick.
 

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Miller is a top-PG, but you can't say it's more difficult to lead the NBA in assists when you play on a awful team...just look at M.Bibby, he had much more assists when he played in Vancouver.
 

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I've said this before, why are the Pacers not happy with Jamaal Tinsley?

Rookie season of Tinsley = Broke all time assist record for the pacers

Rookie season of Tinsley = ranked 6th in the NBA in assists per game

Rookie season of Tinsley = ranked 14th in the NBA in steals per game

Not to mention 9.4 ppg and 3.7 rpg to top off his rookie season

Thats incredible, how can they not be happy?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
1st of all, I said Tinsley and Artest would be about right. I said Tinsley and Bender would be too much. It's funny how a guy like Andre can go from being underrated to being overrated in such a short amount of time. And I am right about Tinsley being nearly as good as Miller in a few years. Look at the stats, there's not that much difference when you consider last year was Tinsleys rookie season. I feel Tinsley is just as good a distrubutor as Andre is. Tinsley averaged about 1 and a half less assists per game, whoopdy doo, they averaged around the same number of rebounds per game, and Andre averages more points per game but he and Ricky Davis were Clevelands primary scorers. The truth is scoring is the less important statistic for a PG. Also, Tinsley was overweight last season, and has been working the entire offseason down in Florida to get in better shape. It wouldn't surprise me to see Tinsley average 10+ points and 10 assists per game next season. Then you add the leagues premiere defensive player who's only 22 or 23 years old Ron Artest and it looks like a fair trade to me.
Now there's no way I would give up Tinsley and a guy with the potential of Jonathan Bender for Miller. Bender has the potential to be a top 5-10 player in a few years. He's 7'+, one of the most athletic players in the league, quick, in great shape, and is the best shooter on the Pacers (even better than Reggie) So there's no way I would trade him.
Also, Miller is only the #5 PG in the league. We all know Kidd, Payton, Francis, and Baron Davis are better. And like I already said, Andre sure has been overhyped the past 4 or so months. He's a boring, non-flashy player, and because of this he will never be a SuperStar.
So like I said earlier, if the Pacers really want Miller I'd offer Tinsley and Artest (and the only reason I'd accept this trade is because Artest will have to play behind the better overall Al Harrington, who btw is also one of the best defensive players in the NBA) and if Cleveland didn't like that I'd tell them they can take their 3/4ths empty arena and shove it up Jim Paxsons ***. He doesnt know how to properly run an NBA team anyways.
 

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Originally posted by G.O.A.T
1st of all, I said Tinsley and Artest would be about right. I said Tinsley and Bender would be too much. It's funny how a guy like Andre can go from being underrated to being overrated in such a short amount of time. And I am right about Tinsley being nearly as good as Miller in a few years. Look at the stats, there's not that much difference when you consider last year was Tinsleys rookie season. I feel Tinsley is just as good a distrubutor as Andre is. Tinsley averaged about 1 and a half less assists per game, whoopdy doo, they averaged around the same number of rebounds per game, and Andre averages more points per game but he and Ricky Davis were Clevelands primary scorers. The truth is scoring is the less important statistic for a PG. Also, Tinsley was overweight last season, and has been working the entire offseason down in Florida to get in better shape. It wouldn't surprise me to see Tinsley average 10+ points and 10 assists per game next season. Then you add the leagues premiere defensive player who's only 22 or 23 years old Ron Artest and it looks like a fair trade to me.
Now there's no way I would give up Tinsley and a guy with the potential of Jonathan Bender for Miller. Bender has the potential to be a top 5-10 player in a few years. He's 7'+, one of the most athletic players in the league, quick, in great shape, and is the best shooter on the Pacers (even better than Reggie) So there's no way I would trade him.
Also, Miller is only the #5 PG in the league. We all know Kidd, Payton, Francis, and Baron Davis are better. And like I already said, Andre sure has been overhyped the past 4 or so months. He's a boring, non-flashy player, and because of this he will never be a SuperStar.
So like I said earlier, if the Pacers really want Miller I'd offer Tinsley and Artest (and the only reason I'd accept this trade is because Artest will have to play behind the better overall Al Harrington, who btw is also one of the best defensive players in the NBA) and if Cleveland didn't like that I'd tell them they can take their 3/4ths empty arena and shove it up Jim Paxsons ***. He doesnt know how to properly run an NBA team anyways.
Besides the Jim Paxson remark, your post is based on complete ignorance.
*Cleveland would not trade Andre Miller for Tinsley and Artest, but they would consider Bender and Tinsley (which by the way is not too much).
*Tinsley will never be close to as good as Andre Miller no matter how much time he is given.
*Bender being a top 5-10 player in the league is complete bull-ish. That was the hype on him, but that was 3 years ago, and what have they seem from him since???
*And while he is listed as 7'0, he probably stands 6'10, and he's not a better shooter than Reggie.

It looks like your biased arguments are based on wishful thinking. And Indiana isn't in the hunt trade for Andre Miller anyway.
 

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Here's how...

Andre Miller, Zydrunas Ilgauskus, Lamond Murray, and Bimbo Coles to the Pacers

Jamaal Tinsley, Jonathan Bender, Ron Artest, Ron Mercer, and Austin Croshere (and possibly Kevin Ollie in a sign-and-trade, but only if he agrees to a VERY CHEAP deal) to the Cavs

CAVS' PERSPECTIVE. Cleveland is STARTING OVER, they are CLEARING PAYROLL. They want to get rid of the contracts of Ilgauskus (three more years, $40.5 mil remaining) and Murray (four more years, $18.8 mil remaining). They also want to acquire cheap young assets. Tinsley is the next Mark Jackson--he's got savvy, he's a good ball-handler, a good passer, but he's not all that quick, he's not a good perimeter shooter--he cannot hold Andre Miller's jock nor will he ever be able to hold Andre Miller's jock, so let's just make that clear right from the start. Ron Artest is a terrific defender with solid all-around skills--but he's a headcase, and he's never going to be a STAR in this league. Mercer is incredibly one-dimensional and, therefore, quite overpaid--but his contract is up after just two years. It sucks to take on Croshere, who has four more years to go on his terrible contract, but he'll be given an opportunity in Cleveland to play, which wasn't happening in Indiana. The key to the deal for the Cavs is Jonathan Bender. I personally think the dude is a HUGE bust, he looks totally lost out there on the basketball court, but I've been wrong before.

PACERS' PERSPECTIVE. Artest and Bender are both restricted free agents next summer. So is Jeff Foster. And Jermaine O'Neal AND Reggie Miller AND Brad Miller are all UNRESTRICTED free agents. In other words, there is simply NO WAY that the Pacers are going to be able to keep these guys together--they can't re-sign all six of these guys! They seem committed to Al Harrington as their SF of the future, they've already locked him up to a totally reasonable longterm deal--so why would Indiana want to re-sign Artest AND Bender, who will both get big offers from other teams next July? A team like Utah or Denver--a team who is WAY under the cap but has difficulties recruiting LEGIT NBA stars to play for them--will end up throwing a lot of money Bender's way. The Pacers can't afford to give this guy a Croshere-esque deal, people. Besides, Lamond Murray's contract is totally reasonable, he can be this team's backup SF (or maybe even the starter at SG, if Reggie Miller isn't re-signed, which IS a possibility). It sucks to take on Ilgauskus, but at least you're getting rid of Croshere (and Mercer). The KEY, of course, is ANDRE MILLER. The Pacers have QUANTITY but not QUALITY. Take a look at the Lakers' roster--they have TWO STARS and a bunch of role players. The Pacers need another STAR to pair with Jermaine O'Neal--and surround the two of them with cheap role players. Andre Miller is that guy. Take a look at next year's Pacers--they are MUCH-IMPROVED:

PG Andre Miller--Bimbo Coles--Jamison Brewer
SG Reggie Miller--Fred Jones
SF Al Harrington--Lamond Murray
PF Jermaine O'Neal--Jeff Foster
C Brad Miller--Zydrunas Ilgauskus--Primoz Brezec

The team is STILL two-deep at every single position, the glut at SF has been resolved, the CAVS can now sit around and wonder if Jonathan Bender is ever going to amount to anything or not, the CAVS can listen to Ron Artest whine about whatever it is he whines about. THIS team can go to the Eastern Conference Finals next season--the CURRENT Pacers team won't make it past the first round (and will probably struggle to get that #8 seed again, to be honest).

THE BOTTOM LINE: Andre Miller will be one of the top 10-15 players in this league over the next 5-6 years, and he's on the trading block. When a guy like that is available, YOU GO GET HIM. The Pacers are NOT going to be able to re-sign all those dudes--it'll put their payroll into the $65-$70 mil range, which is luxury tax land, AND they STILL won't even be one of the top 2-3 teams in the Eastern Conference! Like I said, QUALITY wins in this league, not QUANTITY--most NBA fans don't understand this for whatever retarded reason.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Sabby is clearly a moron. But them again, he's from Texas so that's to be expected. Maybe all the square dancing and oil drillings gotten to his ******* brain.
Andre Miller will never be a top 10-15 player in the league. His numbers cant compete with Paytons, Kidds, BDavis', or Francis' and that's just point guards. And everything I said about Bender is true, he will be a superstar and an MVP before his career is through, I gurantee it. And yes he is listed at 7', but he's more like 7'1", and he is indeed a better shooter than the guy most people consider the best shooter in the league, Reggie Miller. Now sabby187, my friend, please go clean the bullsh!t of your cowboy boots (and you know it's there from working on the ranch all day) and come send me a PM when you're ready to come back with an intelligent post. Then, and only then, will I allow you to post in this thread again. Thank you for reading. Have a good day.
 

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Originally posted by G.O.A.T
Sabby is clearly a moron. But them again, he's from Texas so that's to be expected. Maybe all the square dancing and oil drillings gotten to his ******* brain.
Andre Miller will never be a top 10-15 player in the league. His numbers cant compete with Paytons, Kidds, BDavis', or Francis' and that's just point guards. And everything I said about Bender is true, he will be a superstar and an MVP before his career is through, I gurantee it. And yes he is listed at 7', but he's more like 7'1", and he is indeed a better shooter than the guy most people consider the best shooter in the league, Reggie Miller. Now sabby187, my friend, please go clean the bullsh!t of your cowboy boots (and you know it's there from working on the ranch all day) and come send me a PM when you're ready to come back with an intelligent post. Then, and only then, will I allow you to post in this thread again. Thank you for reading. Have a good day.
I
gnorance is bliss...because you have no clue

*You're making yourself look foolish once again with the insults. Grow up, and let everybody know when your balls drop

*Check out my post and realize that I never quoted Andre Miller as being a top 10-15 player. I just corrected you and said that Bender would not be a top 5-10 player in the league...I just had your back cuz I knew you had made a mistake when you said that.

*I guess I'll just take your guarantee for Bender being a future MVp for what it's worth....complete bull-ish. You are a dreamer G.O.A.T, and it should be noted that Bender will have a hard time ever making an All Star game.... I GUARANTEE IT

*When has a player's height been under-estimated? I'll tell you...NEVER! Bender is listed at 7'0, so he is 6'10/6'11 at the most. The fact that you say he is more like 7'1 makes you look foolish once again.

*And whatever you say about Bender being a better shooter than Reggie Miller is also wishful thinking. You can ramble on and on about your boy's shooting ability, but until he proves it, it all lies in myth.


Your weak post didn't do anything but allow yourself to be manhandled by this boy from down south. You need to get yourself in check, and come with some facts, and not just wishful thinking and opinions.
 

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Originally posted by G.O.A.T
It's funny how a guy like Andre can go from being underrated to being overrated in such a short amount of time. And I am right about Tinsley being nearly as good as Miller in a few years. Look at the stats, there's not that much difference when you consider last year was Tinsleys rookie season. I feel Tinsley is just as good a distrubutor as Andre is. Tinsley averaged about 1 and a half less assists per game, whoopdy doo, they averaged around the same number of rebounds per game, and Andre averages more points per game but he and Ricky Davis were Clevelands primary scorers.
It's funny how you say Andre Miller is overrated when in the 1st post of this thread you say:

The Pacers could really use Miller, but who would they have to give up to get him whithout giving too much or giving too little?
Why would you want an overrated player on your team when you also state that Tinsley will be as good as Andre Miller in a few years? Then you go ahead and compare their stats and defend Tinsley to the death, who by the way is the player you want to be traded for Miller, and you don't give any credit that Andre Miller is a good PG and try to devalue him to make your trade proposal sound better. You follow up with:

Also, Tinsley was overweight last season, and has been working the entire offseason down in Florida to get in better shape. It wouldn't surprise me to see Tinsley average 10+ points and 10 assists per game next season.
I agree that Tinsley will put up 10+ points & 10+ assists next season which is similar to that of Andre Miller's #s. But somewhere down the line, you're going to have to realize that comparing numbers to actual game play is a whole lot different. Kidd averaged less points & assists per game than Andre Miller but is more of an impact player who has the drive to win, which is something that can't be said about a lot of players.

Bender has the potential to be a top 5-10 player in a few years.
While he does have potential, that doesn't mean Bender will pan out to be the player everyone thinks he'll be. Some players never fully reach their potential and are considered flops. Is Bender a flop? Only time will tell. I'd love for this kid to do well in the NBA simply because I like watching competitive basketball.

He's 7'+, one of the most athletic players in the league, quick, in great shape, and is the best shooter on the Pacers (even better than Reggie)
So would you give Bender the ball with 3 seconds left in the game over Reggie Miller? I doubt it! Bender might have the skills, but it's one thing to have skills, and another thing to use them.

So in the end you say this about Andre Miller:

He's a boring, non-flashy player, and because of this he will never be a SuperStar.
And you only say this because he plays for the Cavs who are notorious for their slow-tempo style thanks to Fratello. If Andre Miller were playing for the T-Wolves, I bet you'd think he'd be exciting simply because he plays next to KG. Tim Duncan isn't a flashy player, but he gets the job done and so does Andre Miller though not the superstar impact player Duncan is.

Quit being so Pacer biased. I understand that you have great pride in your team, but if all those players were half as good as you made them out to be, the Pacers would have won the Champoinship.
 

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Originally posted by mindnsoul


It's funny how you say Andre Miller is overrated when in the 1st post of this thread you say:



Why would you want an overrated player on your team when you also state that Tinsley will be as good as Andre Miller in a few years? Then you go ahead and compare their stats and defend Tinsley to the death, who by the way is the player you want to be traded for Miller, and you don't give any credit that Andre Miller is a good PG and try to devalue him to make your trade proposal sound better. You follow up with:



I agree that Tinsley will put up 10+ points & 10+ assists next season which is similar to that of Andre Miller's #s. But somewhere down the line, you're going to have to realize that comparing numbers to actual game play is a whole lot different. Kidd averaged less points & assists per game than Andre Miller but is more of an impact player who has the drive to win, which is something that can't be said about a lot of players.



While he does have potential, that doesn't mean Bender will pan out to be the player everyone thinks he'll be. Some players never fully reach their potential and are considered flops. Is Bender a flop? Only time will tell. I'd love for this kid to do well in the NBA simply because I like watching competitive basketball.



So would you give Bender the ball with 3 seconds left in the game over Reggie Miller? I doubt it! Bender might have the skills, but it's one thing to have skills, and another thing to use them.

So in the end you say this about Andre Miller:



And you only say this because he plays for the Cavs who are notorious for their slow-tempo style thanks to Fratello. If Andre Miller were playing for the T-Wolves, I bet you'd think he'd be exciting simply because he plays next to KG. Tim Duncan isn't a flashy player, but he gets the job done and so does Andre Miller though not the superstar impact player Duncan is.

Quit being so Pacer biased. I understand that you have great pride in your team, but if all those players were half as good as you made them out to be, the Pacers would have won the Champoinship.

What a great post...G.O.A.T. where you at?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Ok, everything I've said so far has been right, and you all know it. It looks like im gonna have to ignore sabby, he's just your average filthy Texan who probaly doesnt even wear deodarant. Now mindnsoul, the Pacers young players are every bit as good as I say they are, just ask the worlds #1 NBA expert David Dupree. The only reason Indiana has yet to win the East and win make the Finals is because of youth/lack of experience. They were the youngest team in the NBA, yet they still made the playoffs, the youngest team to make the Playoffs since the 1978 Atlanta Hawks, and they gave the Nets more than they could handle, without their 3rd player Harrington and a PG Tinsley who played 80-some minutes the entire 5 games series. Once the Pacers get experience they will dominate the Eastern Conference. Also, the truth is Andre Miller will never be a superstar because he is a boring non-flashy player, he was like thta at Utah, he's like that now in Cleveland. No I'm not just saying that because he plays for the Cavs, look at Ricky Davis, he'll probaly end up being a bigger star than Andre because he's exciting and flashy. Andre Millers just a poor mans black John Stockton, sure he's pretty good but he's so boirng noone cares about him. Tinsley will not only be as good as Miller in due time, but he will become a bigger star than Andre because he's got that NYC street flash that excites.
 

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Yeah, I have to agree w/ Sabby 187 and mindnsoul on this one. Bender is not a better shooter than arguably the greatest shooter (or at least one of them) Reggie Miller. G.O.A.T, it's great that you have faith in your team, but Bender a top 5-10 player in the L? I doubt it. I think he'll end up being sort of a skinnier Rashard Lewis, which still isn't bad. I think the Pacers would be better off trading him and keeping Al Harrington, who I feel will be a much better player, and Ron Artest. They are the two best perimeter defenders in the L, and if they stay together they would be an unbelieveable defensive squad.
 

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Originally posted by G.O.A.T
Ok, everything I've said so far has been right, and you all know it.

This is a ridiculous statement. The man...I mean boy that can't admit when he's wrong. I guess you'll never be wrong. You deserve to be kicked off the Draft Forum. You need to listen to what other people have to say, because the majority of the people in this forum have already proved that they know more about basketball than you. It's OK, your dad loves you...let it out
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Bender has the skills to be the best player in the league. Noones got a more perfect basketball body than Bender, Bender's the best shooter in the NBA, he and Carter are probaly the most athletic players in the NBA, and will be league MVP within the next 5 years. Bender is a like a combination of Dirk Nowitzki and Kevin Garnett with the athletic ability of Vince Carter, Watching the guy play is unreal, he should be starting at SG over Reggie Miller. He will average 15 ppg 8 rebounds per game 2 blocks per game and 4 assists per game next year playing behind Reggie, but once Reggie retires expect 25-30 ppg, 12-15 rpg, 3 bpg, and an MVP trophy. The guys the most unreal player I've ever seen play and the only guy who can stop him form being a legend is himself. Wait, you all will see.
 

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Heres how it is.

Tinsley will be better than Miller. Period. All you have to do is compare their rookie stats. All you morons talk like Tinsley has been in the L as long as Miller. He was a rook and he still broke records. And about Bender, I thought I was the biggest Bender fan but I guess not, because even when I say hes going to make the ASG I know I might be pushing it. He has the potential but has got no love from Thomas and gets no pt to develop. Can't see him getting MVP though, thats just crazy. Oh yea, and Bender is closer to 7'1 than 7, you gotta remember hes a kid and still growing. About Bender starting over Reggie Goat, how bout you get that Pacers logo off your avatar. If your a true fan you know Reggie is the Pacers. Respect that or get out.

In the future, please refrain from using the words: idiot, moron, and any insulting words. Thanks- Devestata.
 

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Originally posted by G.O.A.T
Bender has the skills to be the best player in the league. Noones got a more perfect basketball body than Bender, Bender's the best shooter in the NBA, he and Carter are probaly the most athletic players in the NBA, and will be league MVP within the next 5 years. Bender is a like a combination of Dirk Nowitzki and Kevin Garnett with the athletic ability of Vince Carter, Watching the guy play is unreal, he should be starting at SG over Reggie Miller. He will average 15 ppg 8 rebounds per game 2 blocks per game and 4 assists per game next year playing behind Reggie, but once Reggie retires expect 25-30 ppg, 12-15 rpg, 3 bpg, and an MVP trophy. The guys the most unreal player I've ever seen play and the only guy who can stop him form being a legend is himself. Wait, you all will see.
Skills alone won't make him the best. There are probably 50 guys that fans say are going to be the best player in the league. Derek Coleman had great skills when he came out of college. Many people thought he would be the greatest. Did he become the greatest? Is he even in the top 100? He never lived up to his potential because he was a lazy good for nothing malcontent with no heart, drive or desire to be the best. Does Bender have the dedication, heart and drive to be a great player?
Bender isn't the best shooter in the league. Last year he wasn't even in the top 20. He may become the best shooter some day. When I look at his stats he has showed improvement every year. He is probably due for a breakout year. Will Indiana be able to resign him or is he destined to move on and become a star somewhere else like Tracy McGrady?
 

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I see him moving on like McGrady and making the Pacers wish they hadnt let him go. Thomas wont even give him a full backup possition, let alone being in the starting lineup
 

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JoeF hit it on the nose. No doubt Jon's got freakish skills, but so did Penny Hardaway and Lloyd Daniels. He won't be a bust, I see him as a Rashard Lewis type. However, he is not a combination of Dirk, Kevin and Vince by any stretch, and i have watched him play many times so i know that he is not "unreal" as you say, G.O.A.T. What he is is a tall, athletic (not as athletic as Vince by any stretch) player with an excellent shot (but not as good as Novitski's by any stretch). What he doesn't have is the post-up game that Garnett and Nowitski both have, and he is very very weak by NBA standards. Could he improve in these areas? Sure, but it takes a certain drive and desire to do so. Theres tons of players in this league with star-caliber talent but not star-caliber drive (Derick Coleman was mentioned earlier)
 
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