[TripleDouble]

Alot of talk recently has been about how we will accomidate a two guard. The general direction of the dialogue has been to debate whether we should resign Duhon and if so, what caliber of player can we get with the remaining MLE and what caliber player we can get to play only 20 minutes per game.

To me, these debates miss the real heart of the issue. The Bulls need to decide which intangibly valuable yet slightly miscast player to retain,Duhon or Nocioni. Neither can guard the players we have trouble guarding, and neither has the upside of Deng, Gordon, or Hinrich.

I side towards keeping Duhon and trading Nocioni. This stratagy would eliminate the need for us to find the elusive big guard with PG skills and would enable us to go after the much easier to find SF/SG (Bobby Simmons?).

 

[bullsville]

I'm not so sure we need to go through too much trouble looking for a big, defensive-minded SG.

First of all, our team defense has allowed us to do a good job overall on SGs. Certainly Hinrich or Duhon or Gordon are at a physical disadvantage trying to guard taller 2s, but it's not like we are being totally dominated by them. Certainly we can't expect any of our 3 guards to cover TMac or Kobe one-on-one all the time, but how much to we want to give up?

There is always the possibility that Deng and/or Nocioni can help with big 2s in the future. We can play more zone against post-up 2s, certainly our 3 guards will get better in the future as they are rookies and a 2nd year player.

We might be able to get by with someone like a younger Stacey Augmon. We might be able to find a good defensive-minded "college veteran" like a Tayshaun Prince late in the first round.

That doesn't mean we'll never trade Ben or Kirk for a taller guard, it's certainly possible. But with Skiles' love for Kirk, and Ben's scoring prowess, Paxson may decide that these are the two guys he wants, lack of height be damned.

 

[InPaxWeTrust]

I seem to remember a quote from Paxson a couple weeks ago. I have have been looking for it but have had no luck but I know I read it. He said something to the effect of he knows we need a defensive SG with size but he sees plenty of minutes available for 4 guards(meaning Kirk,Ben,Duhon, and a defensive SG). So what I think that means is Duhon will be back as backup PG to Kirk and then a defensive SG will be brought in to backup Gordon. So to answer the question of this thread neither Duhon nor Nocioni will be sacrificied to bring in a defensive SG. Paxson sees room for all the players on this team.

 

[bullsville]

I seem to remember a quote from Paxson a couple weeks ago. I have have been looking for it but have had no luck but I know I read it. He said something to the effect of he knows we need a defensive SG with size but he sees plenty of minutes available for 4 guards(meaning Kirk,Ben,Duhon, and a defensive SG). So what I think that means is Duhon will be back as backup PG to Kirk and then a defensive SG will be brought in to backup Gordon. So to answer the question of this thread neither Duhon nor Nocioni will be sacrificied to bring in a defensive SG. Paxson sees room for all the players on this team.

Good post, there is no reason we can't go into next season with Kirk cutting down from his current 37.3 minutes to something more like 35 minutes next season, with Duhon still getting 20 or so and Gordon getting 30.

That leaves 11 minutes, not counting time for foul trouble, injuries, and 3-guard lineups. We've seen Hinrich at the 3, you know if we add a big SG he will see some time at the 3 as well.

Our 3 guards combine for 87.1 minutes this season, yet Pike and Griff have still managed to get 1,054 minutes between them- divide by 64 games and that's 16.5 minutes right there.

With Skiles coaching, no doubt there is plenty of PT for 4 guards.

 

[ViciousFlogging]

There is always the possibility that Deng and/or Nocioni can help with big 2s in the future.

ace20004u says: "How many times do I have to say that Nocioni is NOT a 2/3! He's a 3/4! He can't guard 2s! The very idea is laughable. Go Jamal!" :biggrin:

 

[bullet]

We cannot give Chapu up.

For starts I think he's still in the process of improving and adjusting his game , and we'll see better play from him.

And then - how can we give up an 'all out' player like him. Thats so valuable for us. guys hate playing him , and he never gives up. Our teams success is defensive based and I think we have to keep him. His Price is also great for what he brings imo. I'll never say never cause there is always a price...
For the same reason I think we should do our best to keep Duhon. He has an extra value with his defense and running the offense as it should. But if we can get players like Hughes or Simmons for the full mle so we'd have to part with Du , sadly.

 

[Benny the Bull]

I seem to remember a quote from Paxson a couple weeks ago. I have have been looking for it but have had no luck but I know I read it. He said something to the effect of he knows we need a defensive SG with size but he sees plenty of minutes available for 4 guards(meaning Kirk,Ben,Duhon, and a defensive SG). So what I think that means is Duhon will be back as backup PG to Kirk and then a defensive SG will be brought in to backup Gordon. So to answer the question of this thread neither Duhon nor Nocioni will be sacrificied to bring in a defensive SG. Paxson sees room for all the players on this team.

Exactly what I was thinking. Plus Nocioni can play some minutes at PF. I think if any one is dealt, it could be Piatkowski, since he would be fairly easy to move.

 

[Wynn]

Our 3 guards combine for 87.1 minutes this season, yet Pike and Griff have still managed to get 1,054 minutes between them- divide by 64 games and that's 16.5 minutes right there.

Just to reinforce what bullsville! has posted:

San Antonio
Tony Parker -- 34.2
Manu Ginobili -- 29.9
Devin Brown -- 18.3
Brent Barry -- 20.5
Beno Udrih -- 14.0

Detroit
Rip Hamilton -- 38.7
Chauncey Billups -- 36.6
Carlos Arroyo -- 18.5
Carlos Delfino -- 15.7
Lindsey Hunter -- 15.1

Miami (though they use EJ mostly as SF)
Dwyane Wade -- 38.7
Eddie Jones -- 35.8
Damon Jones -- 31.3
Keyon Dooling -- 15.3
Shandon Anderson -- 17.9

Phoenix
Joe Johnson -- 39.7
Steve Nash -- 34.6
Quentin Richardson -- 37.0
Leandro Barbosa -- 16.6

Seattle
Ray Allen -- 38.9
Antonio Daniels -- 27.6
Luke Ridnour -- 31.1
Flip Murray -- 15.3

etc....

Chicago
Kirk Hinrich -- 37.3
Ben Gordon -- 23.8
Chris Duhon -- 26.0
Eric Piatkowski -- 11.6
Adrian Griffin -- 8.7
Jannero Pargo -- 10.4 (14 games)
Frank Williams -- 7.9 (9 games)

If 5 of the top teams in the league can use four guards in their rotations, I'm sure we can, too. Even minus injury, between Pike, Griff, Pargo, and FWill we're looking at 25 mpg for our fourth guard. We can't count on being injury free, likely there will be more minutes. Increasing Ben's minutes while decreasing those of Kirk and Chris will tend to make that a wash. Can we please put a rest to the argument that we don't have enough minutes for four guards? If the guy can play, we -- or any other team in the league -- can find him minutes.

 

[bullet]

I seem to remember a quote from Paxson a couple weeks ago. I have have been looking for it but have had no luck but I know I read it. He said something to the effect of he knows we need a defensive SG with size but he sees plenty of minutes available for 4 guards(meaning Kirk,Ben,Duhon, and a defensive SG). So what I think that means is Duhon will be back as backup PG to Kirk and then a defensive SG will be brought in to backup Gordon. So to answer the question of this thread neither Duhon nor Nocioni will be sacrificied to bring in a defensive SG. Paxson sees room for all the players on this team.

eah , I agree , there is place for a solid 4th big gaurd on the team.

If Raja/Devin are to expensive to go with Duhon (whom I don't think will cost more then 2-3 mil a year , closer to 2 for starts) then we can go to a little lower price like Kieth Bogans/Maurice Evans type. They'd give us 15-18 productive minutes.

And as Benny said , Pike will be easy to move (last year , reasonable contract).

 

[DaBullz]

The bulls play a 3 guard offense enough of the time. This should be taken into consideration. There's not just 48+48 minutes for guards to play, but 48+48+24 or something like that.

 

[svanacore]

If anything, we need more offense not defense.

 

[david123]

both are completely expendable. don't really care if they get rid of one or both of them. if pressed, i would rather get rid of duhon, since we'll be getting a big guard in return. don't find much use for him anyhow.

i would probably give up piatkowski for nothing. completely useless.

also, i really don't see hinrich's minutes go down anytime soon under skiles' regime. skiles practically orally felates hinrich and duhon after every game for their "hustle" and "effort", conveniently ignoring horrendous shooting & mediocre playmaking, resulting in lower chances to win the ballgame. duhon probably reminds skiles of himself as a player. ie. hustle & effort, no talent.

skiles hates offense.

 

[The Krakken]

The bulls play a 3 guard offense enough of the time. This should be taken into consideration. There's not just 48+48 minutes for guards to play, but 48+48+24 or something like that.

With Deng healthy and getting better all the time, that just isn't a reality.

The better he gets, the more the 3 guard rotation minutes are going to shrink.

 

[chifaninca]

This is an easy, but painful one.

Duhon has earned his spot with us for many years to come.

HOWEVER, it's simple, the loss of Duhon for a bigger starter quality SG who can contribute on offense, but D up a better than average clip improves the team in two ways.........

One - Kirk Hinrich moves back to PG and excels again. That would improve us big time.

Two - Ben becomes our swing guy playing with either guy well and playing a three guard offense occassionally doesn't mean the smurf patrol on the court.

Trading Nocioni only makes us thinner at the SF and Team Psycho slot.

Sure, we could get another SF, but can we really find another psycho?

I would make a hard, hard push for Bobby Simmons, if not split the MLE between Devin Brown and Oberto. Tough summer for us, we have no money, no picks and a GM who has wised up.

Still, if we resign Duhon, Harrington and bring in a LLE guy I won't be surprised or pissed.

 

[bullsville]

Pike isn't completely useless, he is a 40%+ 3-pt shooter, 39.9% for his career. We needed 3-pt shooting, we got a 3-pt shooter.

He's nothing special, but he has a usable skill, and for the 10th man on the roster who has only played 600 minutes all season, I can live with him.

Plus, he has an expiring contract in the summer of 2006, that could come in handy for trade purposes to a team that needs a shooter.

I don't see how anyone can accuse Duhon and Hinrich of mediocre playmaking, Kirk is 11th in the league in assists and 26th in ast/TO ratio. Duhon is 29th in assists and 16th in ast/TO ratio. I seriously doubt you will find more than 2 or 3 starting backcourts that are ranked that high in both categories.

 

[BealeFarange]

Wynn! ,
In your example, only Seattle doesn't use one of the four guards as a small forward. And Flip Murray is not a happy camper, nor is he likely to stick around. Additonally, it's hard to say that he's being utilized to his full ability.
Arroyo's minutes are inflated from Utah. Devin Brown is surely bolting for free agency and more playing time.
Nice examples, but not at all applicable to the Bulls where at least THREE of the FOUR alleged four-guard rotation are 6'3" or under. There will be no small forward in the set and there's hardly a shooting guard as it is.
To those who think the Bulls can play a three guard set succesfully, Duhon/Gordon/Kirk have done it this year, I say good luck. It has been somewhat succesful this year but only in spot situations. I don't really think going small is that useful in the NBA over long periods of time. Kirk playing the 3, Bullsville? Really? If that's what we think is best for the Bulls...color me skeptical.
Noc is a three. He is not a two. He is not a four. He's a three. Same with Deng...though it is remotely possible that he can play the two. That would be ideal because then he could play two with Noc at three...none of this Noc at four business. Any way you look at it, Gordon/Duhon/Kirk do not make an ideal threesome unless Deng can step in and play guard. Four guards will not work if they don't have THREE positions to choose from rather than two. The Bulls are SET at small forward...therefore, four guards will NOT work.
I don't think Noc is in danger of being shipped at all...he's one of the few guys that does have a position. He's a beautiful backup for Deng at the three and can occassionally play with Deng.

 

[Illstate2]

Question: why does any good big guard come here to play <=20 minutes a game? What do we have that would influence such a decision? Cap room? No. A contending team? No.

 

[bullsville]

Beale, I think you are being too rigid in sticking guys in a set position. While I certainly don't care to see much of Kirk at SF, or Nocioni at SG, Pax has done a great job of filling this team with multi-positional players. What lineup combinations we use will vary from game to game as our opponents vary from game to game.

You say Nocioni isn't a 4, well he was a 4 his entire career up until the last few seasons. He worked hard on his outside shot and ball-handling to be able to play the 3, but he's a 4 at heart.

Can he play the 4 full-time? I doubt it, seriously. But he can play more than one position in a pinch, depending on the matchups. With zones becoming more and more popular, as well as small-ball like Phoenix plays, and the continued slow but sure Europeanization of the NBA game, Deng and Nocioni will be able to play some 4 at times.

And we are pretty successful playing 4 guards this season- as I mentioned earlier, the Pike/Griffin combo is getting an average of ~16 minutes/game. We can bring in a big SG who can also play a little SF and he will get his minutes.

PG- Kirk 28, Duhon 20
SG- Ben 30, Kirk 7


That leaves 11 minutes right there in the back-court for a 4th guard. Factor in injuries, 3-guard line-ups and our big SG playing some SF and everyone should get their minutes.

We're only talking about bringing in a SG who can defend the big guards that we can't handle. Not every team has a SG like this, some nights our stopper wouldn't even be needed. We're doing a good job of covering most of the SG in the league, we are only talking about certain big SG who are able to exploit our lack of height.

 

[Wynn]

Beale!

I picked those 5 because I consider them the best teams in the NBA this season. Find me a roster where the fourth guard is as bad as Pike, Griff, Pargo, or FWill. I've already shown where we had over 20 mpg used on those four guys that could have gone to a better guard. Again, we've been fortunate to not have any major guard injuries this year, which would increase the minutes even more.

Some other rosters:

Houston
Mike James -- 29.2
David Wesley -- 34.2
Bob Sura -- 32.5
Jon Barry -- 23.8
Andre Barrett -- 11.6 (27 games)
Rod strickland -- 12.3 (16 games)

Dallas
Jerry Stackhouse -- 30.8
Jason Terry -- 29.8
Marquis Daniels -- 26.6
Devin Harris -- 15.0
Darrell Armstrong -- 12.4

Washington
Gilbert Arenas -- 40.7
Larry Hughes -- 38.3
Jarvis Hayes -- 28.9
Juan Dixon -- 16.5
Steve Blake -- 15.2
Anthony Peeler -- 13.4

Cleveland
LeBron James -- 41.6 (many at SF)
Jeff McInnis -- 37.3
Ira Newble -- 23.7
Lucious Harris -- 15.8
Eric Snow -- 22.0

Boston
Ricky Davis -- 32.7
Gary Payton -- 32.9
Tony Allen -- 16.3
Marcus Banks -- 13.9
Delonte West -- 13.1

Sacramento
Mike Bibby -- 39.1
Cuttino Mobley -- 39.7
Bobby Jackson -- 21.7 (24 games)
Maurice Evans -- 19.1
Eddie House -- 9.8 (9 games)

I still think you haven't demonstrated that a team can't play four guards.... while I think I've just listed 10 teams (11 if you include us) who have done so this season.

In your example, only Seattle doesn't use one of the four guards as a small forward. And Flip Murray is not a happy camper, nor is he likely to stick around. Additonally, it's hard to say that he's being utilized to his full ability. Arroyo's minutes are inflated from Utah. Devin Brown is surely bolting for free agency and more playing time.

Carlos' minutes, BTW, are what he has played since arriving in Detroit. Now bolting may be the intention of Devin and Flip, but where will they go? As our own Crawdaddy learned last summer, there aren't a lot of minutes out there for guards in the league.

Frankly, if we can land a good SG, Duhon is going to have to ne the one to take the cut in minutes. He's working his tail off for us, but he would become the fourth guard in our rotation. As others have mentioned, Kirk moves back to his more effective position, Ben maintains his scoring roll, the new SG plays both ends of the floor, and Duhon becomes our utility guard/spot defender/back-up PG. If Duhon costs us more than the $ million exception, then we need to think hard about whether to re-sign him. Less than that, though, and I think re-signing him is a no-brainer.

 

[Showtyme]

It's gotta be Duhon that we let go if it comes to one of them.

If our situation were different, and we didn't have Hinrich AND Gordon (two guys that many in the league view as point guard types), I'd rejoice in picking up Duhon. What a great find, that deep in the 2nd round.

But in terms of how useful he is TO US? I wonder if Tierre Brown couldn't do the same thing (he's actually been very good for the Lakers in a lot of tough spots).

Next year, there's quite a few point guards hitting the market. Jeff McInnis, Earl Watson, Bobby Jackson, Howard Eisley, Tyronn Lue, GP, Brevin Knight, a renewed Dan Dickau, the newly rejuvenated Rick Brunson, Travis Best, Milt Palacio, Juan Dixon. These guys will all probably play in the league next year. We probably couldn't get some of the top ones, but we could probably pick up at least ONE of these guys for the minimum. They have all shown some degree of success in the league, and if we were to replace Duhon's minutes with theirs, I don't think we'd see a horrible dropoff. Rick Brunson is averaging 5.7 assist per game, and 1.1 steals! He's 7th in the league in A/TO. He's almost a Chris Duhon CLONE, except slightly better in every cat, in terms of this season.

We've always had some kind of decent backup little guard, even through the bad years. I think it makes him more expendable, and if it meant that we could get a 2-guard defender, I'd DEFINITELY let him go.

The entire point Chris Duhon gets the minutes that he gets is because we don't have a 2-guard defender, so Hinrich plays the spot. As SOON as we could get one, you don't think Skiles would move his preciousssss back to the prized position, the "coach-on-the-floor" point guard spot? Of course he would, and Gordon would start next to him, with the 2-guard defender being brought in for extended stretches to D up on the studs of the league.

Duhon would suddenly have an incredibly diminished role, and we wouldn't be able to capitalize on his talents.

Nocioni, on the other hand, is someone that doesn't get replaced with a 2-guard defender. If we were to give him up and get a 2, then Duhon would get marginalized nevertheless, and we'd just be thinner at the 3.