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· We Just Wanna Chill
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Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Tracy McGrady
Paul Pierce
Vince Carter
Ray Allen

*I know Wade was purposely not included in the "candidates" lists...so im not putting him there, or else he would be right after Kobe.*
 

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Well if you go by career numbers, Vince is at 5.3 and Kobe at 5.1, thats also including Kobe's 2 seasons not starting.
 
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For 05-06 season,among these players, I'd say VC has the best clutch performance following by Ray Allen and PP. The best leader would go for LBJ. The best shooter is Kobe and Allen,. TMac,Lebron and PP are the best all around swingmen.
 

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futuristxen said:
What does any of that have to do with leadership? I'm talking about a guy who knows how to speak to this teammates and raise or lower their level of play. Not per se his own. A lot of guys can raise their own, but actual leaders can inspire their teammates to raise their play.

And being a leader isn't even about just in the games. It's the guy who gets the team going in practice and makes sure guys aren't slacking off. There's so many facets to it. And by all reports Lebron is one of the best leaders in the game on and off the court.

I mean, ESnow isn't clutch, hasn't got any rings, and didn't exactly lead philly by himself anywhere. But he's still a better leader than T-Mac or Kobe. Look at Avery Johnson with the Spurs. He wasn't great, but he was like a coach on the floor, and knew how to get the best out of his team.

Your definition of leadership is flawed against the talent on the actual team. You can be the best leader in the league, and that may only mean your team wins 20 games. But maybe your team is really only a 12 win team. Y'know.
Look what Tmac has done for yao since joining the team? I mean he has brought yao to a whole new level. He is one of the few Yao supporters in this leauge other then JVG
 

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Kobe Bryant:
Leadership+6 ++
Responsibility+10
Clutch Performance+9
Defence+8 ++
Shooting+9
Passing+7
Rebounding+7
Athleticism+9 --
Reputation+10

Total=75

Tracy McGrady:

Leadership+5
Responsibility+9
Clutch Performance+10 --
Defence+8 ++
Shooting+10
Passing+6
Rebounding+8
Athleticism+9 --
Reputation+9

Total=74

LeBron James:

Leadership+6 ++
Responsibility+10
Clutch Performance+6 ++
Defence+5 ++
Shooting+8 ++
Passing+10
Rebounding+9
Athleticism+10
Reputation+8 ++

Total=72

Paul Pierce

Leadership+9
Responsibility+10
Clutch Performance+8 ++
Defence+7
Shooting+8 ++
Passing+6
Rebounding+8
Athleticism+8
Reputation+7 ++

Total=71

Vince Carter:

Leadership+6 ++
Responsibility+8
Clutch Performance+9
Defence+7
Shooting+8
Passing+6
Rebounding+7
Athleticism+10 --
Reputation+9 --

Total=70

Ray Allen:

Leadership+7
Responsibility+9
Clutch Performance+8
Defence+4
Shooting+10
Passing+8 ++
Rebounding+5
Athleticism+8 --
Reputation+7

Total=66


My List
1.Kobe
2.Tracy
3.LeBron
4.Pierce
5.Carter
6.Allen
 

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futuristxen said:
What does any of that have to do with leadership? I'm talking about a guy who knows how to speak to this teammates and raise or lower their level of play. Not per se his own. A lot of guys can raise their own, but actual leaders can inspire their teammates to raise their play.

And being a leader isn't even about just in the games. It's the guy who gets the team going in practice and makes sure guys aren't slacking off. There's so many facets to it. And by all reports Lebron is one of the best leaders in the game on and off the court.

I mean, ESnow isn't clutch, hasn't got any rings, and didn't exactly lead philly by himself anywhere. But he's still a better leader than T-Mac or Kobe. Look at Avery Johnson with the Spurs. He wasn't great, but he was like a coach on the floor, and knew how to get the best out of his team.

Your definition of leadership is flawed against the talent on the actual team. You can be the best leader in the league, and that may only mean your team wins 20 games. But maybe your team is really only a 12 win team. Y'know.
why are you so high on Lebron when T-Mac has demonstrated again and again in the playoffs that he can singlehandly hold his team together and lead them to (almost) victories? Being able to raise your game to another level during playoffs time and still get your teammates invovled, that's leadership to me.

Case in point: last year's playoffs against the Mavericks. He took over Rockets' offense, was clutch, and guarded Mavs' best player. That's leadership, and at crucial moments of the game he kept the team together either to victory or stay close enough for an opportunity to win. Rockets' T-Mac is completely different from the Magic's T-Mac, and even Magic almost had a chance to beat the better Detroit Pistons.

you can be as an inspirational speaker as you can be in the locker room. But when push comes to shove, can you lead/carry your team to victory, especially in the playoffs?

Not sure why you are saying T-Mac is lacking any of the qualities you listed for leadership.
 

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thug_immortal8 said:
Well if you go by career numbers, Vince is at 5.3 and Kobe at 5.1, thats also including Kobe's 2 seasons not starting.
Tracy McGrady's career RbR excluding this season: 10.4
Paul Pierce's career RbR excluding this season: 9.9
LeBron James' career RbR excluding this season: 9
Kobe Bryant's career RbR excluding this season: 8.2
Vince Carter's career RbR excluding this season: 8
Ray Allen's career RbR excluding this season: 7.4

Paul Pierce's current season career RbR: 10.5
Tracy McGrady's current season RbR: 10.2
LeBron James' current season career RbR: 9.9
Vince Carter's current season career RbR: 9.4
Kobe Bryant's current season career RbR: 7.7
Ray Allen's current season career RbR: 6.6

I would rank them as (in terms of rebounding):

1. Paul Pierce
2. Tracy McGrady
3. LeBron James
4. Vince Carter
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Ray Allen
 

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Premier said:
Tracy McGrady's career RbR excluding this season: 10.4
Paul Pierce's career RbR excluding this season: 9.9
LeBron James' career RbR excluding this season: 9
Kobe Bryant's career RbR excluding this season: 8.2
Vince Carter's career RbR excluding this season: 8
Ray Allen's career RbR excluding this season: 7.4

Paul Pierce's current season career RbR: 10.5
Tracy McGrady's current season RbR: 10.2
LeBron James' current season career RbR: 9.9
Vince Carter's current season career RbR: 9.4
Kobe Bryant's current season career RbR: 7.7
Ray Allen's current season career RbR: 6.6

I would rank them as (in terms of rebounding):




1. Paul Pierce
2. Tracy McGrady
3. LeBron James
4. Vince Carter
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Ray Allen


Premier, what's RBR?
 

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VC_15 said:
Premier, what's RBR?
RbR
Rebound rate (available since the 1971 season in NBA); the formula is (TRB * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm TRB + Opp TRB)), multiplied by 100. Rebound rate is an estimate of the percentage of missed shots a player rebounded while he was on the floor. Basketball Reference Glossary
 

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27,460 Posts
Premier said:
Tracy McGrady's career RbR excluding this season: 10.4
Paul Pierce's career RbR excluding this season: 9.9
LeBron James' career RbR excluding this season: 9
Kobe Bryant's career RbR excluding this season: 8.2
Vince Carter's career RbR excluding this season: 8
Ray Allen's career RbR excluding this season: 7.4

Paul Pierce's current season career RbR: 10.5
Tracy McGrady's current season RbR: 10.2
LeBron James' current season career RbR: 9.9
Vince Carter's current season career RbR: 9.4
Kobe Bryant's current season career RbR: 7.7
Ray Allen's current season career RbR: 6.6

I would rank them as (in terms of rebounding):

1. Paul Pierce
2. Tracy McGrady
3. LeBron James
4. Vince Carter
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Ray Allen
Why would you rank Pierce higher, when McGrady's edge in career rebound rate is larger than Pierce's edge in rebound rate this season? Career to date for both players is a significantly larger sample size, and Pierce's edge this season is hardly decisive.
 

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Minstrel said:
Why would you rank Pierce higher, when McGrady's edge in career rebound rate is larger than Pierce's edge in rebound rate this season?
The rebound rate statistics of this season was weighted heavily (non-mathematically, though, as a proper co-efficient would be required to weight the current season rebound rate and the career average rebound rate, which can only stem from one's opinion) relative to the rebound rate of the current season. I'm sure you would agree that when asked to evaluate a player's abilities in one characteristic of basektball that it is more appropriate to view the current season statistics as the true indication of said ability than the career averages. I interpret the question so that the averages of years past may not be as important, especially if we are including statistics of three or more seasons ago. It is more important, in my opinion, to evaluate the player's current ability per the question. If the question (or direction) stated to evaluate the player's former ability, one would take career averages into higher consideration.

Career to date for both players is a significantly larger sample size
True, especially considered the amount of games that McGrady missed due to injury and the subsequent decrease in production due to the injury. Perhaps a three-year average would be the most agreeable, for definitive purposes?

McGrady's three-year rebound rate average (this season and the two previous seasons) is roughly [not using the raw formula; using the average for each season so the data is skewed, though only slightly] 9.2. He has posted rather lack-luster numbers in his previous three full seasons, relative to the outstanding rebound rate's of his early-career (including a 49 game average of 14.6 and a 64 game average of 12.8).

Pierce, on the other hand, has been very consistent throughout his career. His rebound rate for each season has only once been below 9.4 (posted a rebound rate of 8.7 in 73 games in the '99-'00 season) and he has posted a rebound rate of 10.6 three times in his career, excluding his 10.5 rebound rate of this season. His three-year average is roughly 10.23, not adjusted per game.
 

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8,959 Posts
Kobe Bryant:
Leadership+9
Responsibility+9
Clutch Performance+9
Defence+9
Shooting+9
Passing+7
Rebounding+7
Athleticism+9
Reputation+9

Total=77

Tracy McGrady:

Leadership+8
Responsibility+8
Clutch Performance+10
Defence+8
Shooting+9
Passing+8
Rebounding+8
Athleticism+8
Reputation+9

Total=76

LeBron James:

Leadership+8
Responsibility+9
Clutch Performance+4
Defence+8
Shooting+9
Passing+9
Rebounding+9
Athleticism+10
Reputation+10

Total=76

Paul Pierce

Leadership+9
Responsibility+8
Clutch Performance+8
Defence+9
Shooting+9
Passing+7
Rebounding+8
Athleticism+8
Reputation+8

Total=74

Vince Carter:

Leadership+7
Responsibility+8
Clutch Performance+9
Defence+7
Shooting+9
Passing+7
Rebounding+7
Athleticism+10
Reputation+9

Total=73

Ray Allen:

Leadership+7
Responsibility+8
Clutch Performance+9
Defence+7
Shooting+10
Passing+7
Rebounding+7
Athleticism+8
Reputation+8

Total=71


My List
1. Kobe
2. T-Mac
2. Lebron
4. Pierce
5. Carter
6. Allen[/QUOTE]
 

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Premier said:
The rebound rate statistics of this season was weighted heavily (non-mathematically, though, as a proper co-efficient would be required to weight the current season rebound rate and the career average rebound rate, which can only stem from one's opinion) relative to the rebound rate of the current season. I'm sure you would agree that when asked to evaluate a player's abilities in one characteristic of basektball that it is more appropriate to view the current season statistics as the true indication of said ability than the career averages.
Current season has a benefit and a flaw, the benefit is that it's the most current snapshot of their ability, the flaw is that it suffers from sample size fluctuations.

True, especially considered the amount of games that McGrady missed due to injury and the subsequent decrease in production due to the injury. Perhaps a three-year average would be the most agreeable, for definitive purposes?

McGrady's three-year rebound rate average (this season and the two previous seasons) is roughly [not using the raw formula; using the average for each season so the data is skewed, though only slightly] 9.2. He has posted rather lack-luster numbers in his previous three full seasons, relative to the outstanding rebound rate's of his early-career (including a 49 game average of 14.6 and a 64 game average of 12.8).

Pierce, on the other hand, has been very consistent throughout his career. His rebound rate for each season has only once been below 9.4 (posted a rebound rate of 8.7 in 73 games in the '99-'00 season) and he has posted a rebound rate of 10.6 three times in his career, excluding his 10.5 rebound rate of this season. His three-year average is roughly 10.23, not adjusted per game.
That's definitely more compelling. Personally, I think this season is likely to be an abberration, in terms of health, for McGrady. Not that he's going to be completely healthy from here on out, but based on his previous couple of seasons, his injury problems seem more pronounced than would be expected. Thus, I think this season is probably something of an outlier, but there's no way to know that until he plays a few more seasons.

Thanks for the analysis. Personally, I think they're pretty equivalent rebounders; even in a season sapped of athleticism by injuries, McGrady's rebound rate is very close to Paul Pierce's...I think better health is the likeliest occurrence for next season (though how much healthier I'd say is very arguable), so at least some uptick in rebound rate seems likely to me.
 

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Joined
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27,460 Posts
Kobe Bryant:
Leadership+7
Responsibility+7
Clutch Performance+5
Defence+6
Shooting+8
Passing+7
Rebounding+7
Athleticism+9
Reputation+10

Total=65

Tracy McGrady:

Leadership+7
Responsibility+7
Clutch Performance+5
Defence+6
Shooting+8
Passing+7
Rebounding+9
Athleticism+8
Reputation+9

Total=66

LeBron James:

Leadership+7
Responsibility+7
Clutch Performance+5
Defence+4
Shooting+6
Passing+8
Rebounding+8
Athleticism+10
Reputation+10

Total=65

Paul Pierce

Leadership+7
Responsibility+7
Clutch Performance+5
Defence+6
Shooting+6
Passing+6
Rebounding+9
Athleticism+7
Reputation+7

Total=60

Vince Carter:

Leadership+5
Responsibility+6
Clutch Performance+5
Defence+5
Shooting+7
Passing+6
Rebounding+6
Athleticism+9
Reputation+8

Total=57

Ray Allen:

Leadership+5
Responsibility+7
Clutch Performance+5
Defence+5
Shooting+10
Passing+6
Rebounding+5
Athleticism+6
Reputation+7

Total=56


Fun exercise, but not too valid considering "reputation" doesn't actually impact how good a player is. Also, leadership is fun to speculate about, but not really something any of us are particularly well-equipped to evaluate. Plus, things like post-up ability, slashing, ball-handling aren't accounted for.

The way I'd actually rate them, when they are all healthy is:

1a. Kobe Bryant
1b. Tracy McGrady
3. LeBron James
4. Paul Pierce
5. Vince Carter
6. Ray Allen
 

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1,488 Posts
Kobe Bryant:
Leadership 6
Responsibility 9
Clutch Performance 9
Defence 9
Shooting 8
Passing 7
Rebounding 6
Athleticism 10
Reputation 9

Total=73

Tracy McGrady:

Leadership 8
Responsibility 7
Clutch Performance9
Defence 7
Shooting8
Passing 8
Rebounding 8
Athleticism 8
Reputation 8

Total=72

LeBron James:

Leadership 8
Responsibility 8
Clutch Performance 6
Defence 7
Shooting 7
Passing 10
Rebounding 8
Athleticism 10
Reputation 10

Total=74

Paul Pirece

Leadership 8
Responsibility 10
Clutch Performance 8
Defence 6
Shooting 7
Passing 6
Rebounding 9
Athleticism 8
Reputation 8

Total=69

Vince Carter:

Leadership 6
Responsibility 8
Clutch Performance 8
Defence 6
Shooting 8
Passing 7
Rebounding 6
Athleticism 10
Reputation 9

Total=68

Ray Allen:

Leadership 8
Responsibility 9
Clutch Performance 8
Defence 5
Shooting 10
Passing 7
Rebounding 5
Athleticism 8
Reputation 8

Total=68


My List
1. Lebron 74
2. Kobe 73
3. Tmac 72
4. Pierce 69
t-5. Ray 68
t-5 Vince 68
 
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