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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Looking at the Bulls' schedule, they start the season with a lot of road games and a tough west-coast trip. If they start JWill, could it seriously damage his ego to be the starter on a team that might lose most, if not all, of the first 20 games or so?

On the other hand, if they won 15 of those games with him as the starter, it'd be an ego boost, for sure :)

If were Cartwright, and were basically betting your career on it, which way would you go?

I say: don't start him. Ease him into playing time from the bench, while allowing guys with more experience try to keep the bulls in these tough games.
 

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They tried to play this arguement in Detroit with Joey Harrington "he shouldn't start because he could get injuried and its not like there going win a lot of games this year" thats crap if he is going to be the future of your team he should be getting pt (unless he is cleary not ready and is hurting the team) who cares if your bulls have a tough west coast trip. He is an adult if he is too fragile to take some lumps then he doesn't belong in the nba.
 

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I wouldn't set a line up worrying about who can handle losing. If you worry about young kids getting damaged by all the losses you can't play Curry, Chandler, Williams, Crawford, Hassell, etc. These guys have to develop for the losing to stop, and sitting on the bench watching older players take a butt whoopin isn't a good method. Throw them into the fire and hope they gel and grow together. If they don't, they probably won't be with the team long anyway.

I wouldn't worry as much about the young players handling the losing as I would Jalen Rose. The young guys are going to be more focused on their own games and personal achievements. I remember Cartwright saying years back that when you first get in the league your main focus is on establishing yourself as an NBA player and proving you belong, providing security for yourself. Only after that it established do you become more focused on team goals.

Jalen was traded from a soild team to one of the worst. He has never experienced losing like this before. He may lose it after a while. Look what happened to Oakley after just a few weeks last year.

The young guys are interested in getting minutes and establishing themselves in the league first. They can handle the losing better than established players as long as they feel they are getting enough minutes to grow.

Put J Will out there. I think he seems extremely mature and could handle almost anything. And from the looks of it he could probably handle things better than Crawford.
 

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its not the losing itself

its the way losing comes about that determine if its harmful

if a player is just not ready than it can be harmful to his development as his confidence can be shaken

if the player is playing well but its not producing wins it can be disheartening but usually they are better for the experience

thats why its usually best to take a wait & see approach and obseverve if a player is capable before throwing more min. at them
 

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Jay will start. Look at it this way. When Tinsley came to Indy Rose and best were playing the point. They moved Rose to the 3 and made best a backup and Tinsley the starter one opening night. Now I know you are all Bulls fans, but right now Best is better than Crawford. (yes yes bulls fans, Crawford has potential and could be alot better than best, I hear you) And I know all of you probably think Jay will be better than Tinsley ( I dont). So my point is, with all that being said theres no reason as to why Jay wouldnt start. He played in 4 years of college and I think he will get the starting job on opening night purley because he is better than Crawford and because he is your future point.
 

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i dont know abou best being better than JC people forget at no time was JC at his best(no pun intended ) he had just come off major knee surgery and was working himself back into the flow of things

even so the bulls were better for the time crawford held the reins than best

best ran the offense that rose was use to back in ind. because it was a mid season trade and it was an easier off. to learn than the triangle. While JC got them into the offense they will be using this year an probably beyond

so it looked better than the time crawford was on the floor for the most part but this nothing to change the fact that indy does not want best . thats why they traded him even though it left them very weak at point (it a wonder their playoff series went 5 wit mercer running the point as much as he did) they consider him much like the rest of the nba a sawed off 2 guard who when on the bulls basically got the ball to rose who faciliitated the off.

and when it comes down to it results are what counts and the bulls won 4 out of the 6 games JC started and had a horrible record while best was at the helm

and when comparing williams to tinsley remember tinsley is 24 or a few months from it while williams is 20 there is a difference in the on court maturity of the 2 and tinsley game was nba readyand the only way to know if williams game is on that level starts on oct.31 until then its all speculaation
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Were the Pacers 21-61 the year before Tinsley started? It's one thing to start for a team that's going to win a lot of games because it's got proven talent and a good record the year before...

Perhaps we might agree that the losing ways got to Elton Brand enough that he talked about leaving the team at the first chance.

There's going to be a lot of hype about JWill, as there was for Brand. If the team gets into a losing way early on, he may feel a lot of pressure - that he didn't somehow come through like was expected of him.

On the other hand, if he gets his playing time in the first 1/4 of the season with the 2nd unit, or when the game is already lost, or with a lead, he won't have that kind of pressure.

If the team started Crawford, it might be a way to showcase him for the mid-season trading period.
 

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I think Jay is going to come off the bench and be real successful in his backup position. I like the idea of his scoring off the bench. Every time he will get in the game, he will bring a boost of adrenaline.
 

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JWill is the clear starter

There are exactly no reasons and no excuses for not starting Williams. First, he is a top draft pick with essentially a full college career (at a top program no less) under his belt. He is NBA ready. Don't lump him with your average NBA rookie who needs time to DEVELOP. Jay is already DEVELOPED, he merely needs to REFINE.

Look at guys like Battier, Tinsley and Kenyon Martin - these guys were legitimate starters in year 1 and amde positive impacts for their teams in terms of leadership. Why shouldn't JWill be expected to come in from day 1 and do the same for the Bulls?

Now if you are comparing JWill to Crawford, let's consider a few things. They are the same age (21). Crawford has played in the NBA longer, but that does not mean BY ANY MEANS that he is somehow a more-ready player. JWill has always been the superior talent. He has succeeded, and really dominated, at the top level in college. Crawford played half a college season, then spent a season on the bench, then spent a season on IR. Sorry, but JWill at this point is simply a more refined player.

That being said, I still love Crawford and his potential, but for now he should take a back seat to JWill and take minutes at both the 1 and 2 during this season. He might not be in the Bulls future plans, whereas JWill definitely is. I say you gotta start building around JWill NOW and let him forge his identity as a centerpiece of the team. He is ready to step up right now and be a very good PG and more importantly a team leader. Crawford unfortunately is merely a crack-filler in this team...
 

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DaBullz

No, the Pacers were not 21-61 the season before they started Tinsley. They were 41-41 I think. Which proves my point even more. The Pacers were a playoff team who was expected to do good last year and they started Tinsley to see how he could run the team. The Bulls on the other hand, have NO pressure to make the playoffs this year, plain and simple. So does it not make even more sence to start a rookie point guard on a team that isnt expected to improve all that much? That way you give the rookie some great time to develope his game. So trying to say the Pacers only used Tinsley because they were already a good team makes little to no sence. As far as what you have said about Brand, he did not want to leave. I saw him in a few articles and on tv. He actualy said how he felt Chi-town stabbed him in the back, he didnt want to be traded. I know your a Bulls fan but come on, Krause shipped out Elton for no reason other than to save money IMO. If Jalen had Brand right now you would have a good chance at the playoffs this year.
 

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I completely agree. This should not even be an issue. Jay Williams was the best player in America last year. Jay Williams is better than Jamal Crawford. Jay Williams is as good or better than Bibby, Marbury, T. Hardaway, Francis, B. Davis, A. Miller, Tinsley, etc. coming out of college, playing underneath more public scutiny than all of them because at Duke and having the pressure to win every game. The Bulls were 21-61 last year. JUST START HIM. JUST START THE KID AND WATCH. Crawford's ego is the least of the Bull's concerns. FACT: The future is Jay, Tyson, Eddy, Jalen.
 

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Whether Jay Williams starts right now, it is my opinion that he is currently the most mentally tough player on our team. Yes, more mentally tough than Jalen, who refuses to play defense when we're substantially behind in a game, more mentally tough than Crawford, who has a serious injury in his not so recent past...I wouldn't worry about what will happen to JWill's (use Cartman voice) "fragile little mahnd!"
 

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So if Crawford comes into camp and outplays JWill, JWill should still start?

JWill was the best college player in America last year. And, historically speaking, that means very little as far as NBA success goes. Past college player of the year award winners include such NBA luminaries as Joe Smith, Ed O'Bannon, Shawn Respert, Glenn Robinson, Calbert Cheaney, Jim Jackson, Christian Laettner, Lionel Simmons, Sean Elliott, Danny Ferry, Hersey Hawkins, Walter Berry, and Darrell Griffith.

I'm not saying JWill won't beat out Crawford. Just that he shouldn't be handed the job based solely on reputation or college accomplishments.
 

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Personally I find it hard to believe that people think Jay Will should start. Jay Will is a fine player and it is true that he is more developed than a lot of players that come out these days. Still, Crawford has NBA experience and there is a huge difference between HAVING NBA experience and needing NBA experience. Also, Crawford, admittedly mostly due to his injury, hasn't had his "shot" at running this team yet. Crawford deserves that. He worked very hard to recover from his ACL injury and the team was 4-2 last year when JC started. Also, JC had pretty sick #'s as a starter. I'm of the opinion that JC is going to show up much improved and ready to ball this season. If he does, JWill may take the starting gig from him by midseason, after JWill has a chance to "cut his NBA teeth" on other teams second stringers. If Crawford comes out and plays like gangbusters JWill might not even be able to take the job from him. If Crawford plays poorly in the first 10 games then JWill might take the starting gig from him early. In any case, I'll say it again, JAMAL CRAWFORD WILL BE THE STARTING PG COME OPENING DAY.


Also, don't automatically assume that JWill will be the better player than Jamal. Jamal has quite a bit of game himself that many of us have not yet seen.

When JWill does play, expect to see turnovers and rookie mistakes at first. This is no slam on JWill, hell, I LIKE JWill as much as Crawford but who to start at this point is a no-brainer in favor of Crawford.

:wbanana:
 

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Kneepad,

Sorry, but that is a weak argument. Of course there are going to be busts, but to necessarily imply that that could be the case with JWill is pretty ridiculous. I will counter your argument with these two points:

1. JWill has ALREADY proven he can compete amongst the NBA elite in the World Championships this year and a few years ago on the College USA team. No NBA experts or players doubt his ability - the only doubters are fans who have gotten used to assuming that rookies can't make an impact and are all potential busts.

2. The "busts" you cited were not top picks, nor were they PGs. The only high pick, Laettner, was actually a very good NBA player who averaged 17 ppg in his career before injuries, so I think he's a poor example. You are juding him solely on his past couple seasons. Back to my point, take a look at highly drafted (top 3)PGs in recent history and you will see that they are ALL success stories. None have been busts. Going back to 1991 you get Payton, KA, AI (drafted as a PG), Bibby, BDavis, Francis and Kidd. That accounts for about 75% of the NBA's elite PGs and ZERO who were drafted that high have failed. So I'd say that JWill is a pretty safe bet.
 

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Sorry, this is one guy that doesn't see Craw starting as a no-brainer unless trade value is the main consideration in the decision.

Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
Crawford has NBA experience and there is a huge difference between HAVING NBA experience and needing NBA experience.
Take this with a grain of salt as I don't equate Fizer with Craw and this analogy would require a time machine, but if Fizer was competing with a recent Duke rookie drafted VERY high with no NBA experiance, say Elton Brand of 3 years ago, the Duke rookie would be the better player from the start.

Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
Also, Crawford, admittedly mostly due to his injury, hasn't had his "shot" at running this team yet.
Agreed.

Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!

I'm of the opinion that JC is going to show up much improved and ready to ball this season.
He better have improved if he is going to beat out JWill. Let the best man win. :rbanana:
 

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Kneepad,

Sorry, but that is a weak argument. Of course there are going to be busts, but to necessarily imply that that could be the case with JWill is pretty ridiculous. I will counter your argument with these two points:

1. JWill has ALREADY proven he can compete amongst the NBA elite in the World Championships this year and a few years ago on the College USA team. No NBA experts or players doubt his ability - the only doubters are fans who have gotten used to assuming that rookies can't make an impact and are all potential busts.

2. The "busts" you cited were not top picks, nor were they PGs. The only high pick, Laettner, was actually a very good NBA player who averaged 17 ppg in his career before injuries, so I think he's a poor example. You are juding him solely on his past couple seasons. Back to my point, take a look at highly drafted (top 3)PGs in recent history and you will see that they are ALL success stories. None have been busts. Going back to 1991 you get Payton, KA, AI (drafted as a PG), Bibby, BDavis, Francis and Kidd. That accounts for about 75% of the NBA's elite PGs and ZERO who were drafted that high have failed. So I'd say that JWill is a pretty safe bet.
 

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ChiBullsFan, I believe you are twisting my words.

I don't believe I implied that JWill will be a bust. I don't believe he will be. But that is not the question. The question is whether he deserves to start over Crawford. I was responding to a particular argument being made by FunkMachine which basically said JWill deserved to be handed the starting job based solely on his college accomplishments. I was merely pointing out there is no such thing as a sure thing as evidenced by the players I listed.

Your point about highly drafted point guards having a higher success rate in the NBA is well-taken. It's very rare for a PG to be drafted top 3, and those that were have generally been successful.

The only problem, if it can be called a problem, is the Bulls happen to have a #8 pick playing PG already. If JWill had been drafted by the Kings, would he automatically start over Mike Bibby, who did not make the US World Championship team? I'm not equating Crawford to Bibby (yet), but I believe my point about JWill earning the starting job still stands. I said in my post that if JWill legitimately beats Crawford out, then he should start (and I have no doubt that he will if that is the case).
 

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Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
Kneepad,


1. JWill has ALREADY proven he can compete amongst the NBA elite in the World Championships this year and a few years ago on the College USA team. No NBA experts or players doubt his ability - the only doubters are fans who have gotten used to assuming that rookies can't make an impact and are all potential busts.
JWill at the worlds on the court really didn't prove anything primarily becuase he didn't get much playing time.

During his limited action he did show great quickness which resulted in nice penetrations to the basket (with some nice kick outs), and good pressure defense . Though he also played out of control quite a bit and got knocked off of picks in half court defense. His lack of control led to turnovers. His FT shooting also was as spoor as it was at Duke.

In summer league as well, he had a lot of turnovers and forced the action. JWill's assist to T/o ratio was 1 to 2, whereas Craw's was 2 to 1.

Thus there will be an adjustment and transition period for JWill to the NBA game. JWill will have to play more within the flow of the game and not try to force play which is what now makes him turnover prone.

As importantly JWill will have to play within the Bulls triangle. At the Worlds for the US team and NBA/College All Star games, offensive sets weren't really used. There was very little team play. So using these as any demonstrations of proven ability is misleading.

So as of right now, Craw will probably start becuase of his greater familiarity with the triangle. Within this offense Craw's skills also gell much better with Jalen's. As JWill gets more acclimated, he'll challenge for Craw's minutes, plus against certain teams with really quick little guys, JWill may get the starting nod becuase JWill will match up better.

Though, some may want to dismiss this, JWill really does have to improve his FT%, becuase until he does, having him on the court in the 4th quarter during crunch time will be a liability esp. if he's one of the two primary ball handlers. You can't put the ball in the hands of someone shooting 60% from the FT line. Imrpoving his FT shooting shouldn't be a problem for JW, BUT during the Worlds, during his limited PT, he still was missing what few opportunites he got from the charity stripe.


So as of right now, I also see Craw finishing games as well.
 

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giving williams the starting spot because of what he did in college is silly there no other word fo it

so in those who see it that way should also campaign just as hard for fizer to start over TC

and marshall over robinson and hassell

and while we're at it blount over curry

amatuer accomplishments have no say over what happens in the pro ranks if it did the world of sport would be even more out of whack than usual

its like making every boxer who wins gold in the olympics, champ of a pro division instead of working to earn their spot like everyone else in the world
 
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