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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The Jazz seem to be having difficulty coming to terms with him. He's a player who can see time at the 3 & 4 as much as Harpring or Lewis. Plays better "D" than Miller, is taller than Harpring and has no BYC issues like Lewis(and IMO wouldn't demand a starting role if he were slotted as a 6th man getting ~30 minutes between the backup 4 and backup 3 spots).

The #'s being talked about in the rumors seem to fit for a ERob & Fizer for Marsall deal(or ERob for Marshall if the Bull renounced all FA's and absorbed a couple mil./year). No positional holes for either team. The Bull get the best player but at least Utah gets something for him.

The only real ? I have is whether he'd perform like he has for the Jazz or like he did for the Warrior.

Odds & ends: Best wouldn't be a bad point guard to transition from the Stockton era to the (Raul Lopez?) era. Perhaps a swap of Amaechi for Bags could be included to seal the deal.

Fizer

Robinson

Marshall

Note: links to articles on the negotiations are on the lower right hand part of the profile page for Marshall.

P.S.: All this wouldn't be posted if Fizer weren't practicing his 3's.
 

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My only question is would he revert back to how he played in Golden State?

His play in Golden State was pretty horrid and when he finally had some pieces around him, he became an average player in my eyes.

Do you really want to shell out multiple players for him and the contract he'll come signed with?
 

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I see Marshall wanting to go to a contending team for this year.. I think the Bulls will improve but will fall short of the 8th playoff seed... I see him wanting to go to Miami or the Spurs or Mavs or someone that will contend THIS YEAR, but Marshall WOULD be great for the team, I dont see him signing here though
 

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Originally posted by RetroDreams
My only question is would he revert back to how he played in Golden State?

His play in Golden State was pretty horrid and when he finally had some pieces around him, he became an average player in my eyes.

Do you really want to shell out multiple players for him and the contract he'll come signed with?
Actually, I do kind of like the idea of trading 3 players for 2, or 2 players for 1, if it's the right combination.

I think that right now, we've got kind of a problem in that we've got too much potential and not enough time to go around (especially in the backcourt). My preference would be to find a good deal in which we can exchange two of our unproven players for someone who's still got plenty of basketball ahead of them but who's an upgrade in terms of developed talent.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Originally posted by RetroDreams
My only question is would he revert back to how he played in Golden State?

His play in Golden State was pretty horrid and when he finally had some pieces around him, he became an average player in my eyes.

Do you really want to shell out multiple players for him and the contract he'll come signed with?
Your only ? is my only ? too. I don't think performance based(points/rebounds etc.) incentives are permitted(I base this thought on a foundation of utter ignorance) so it's risky.

I'd rather have Fizer stop practicing his 3's and play like his body clone Fortson and I'd rather have ERob in pristine health BUT given the need to live in the real world, getting one player who has actually had numbers of 51.9 FG%, 7.6 RPG ans 1.2 blocks seems like like a risk I'd be willing to take. Yes it's risky because of the radical difference in numbers between the GS and Jazz years but the Bull also shift risk to the Jazz in the form of ERob's infamous toe. Also Fizer would be up for a raise(?) before Marshall's deal would be up so the money issue may not be so bad in reality.

It's a trade; so unless the Bull change strategy and renounce players they will be giving ~ the same $ for the $ they recieve and therefore the budget shouldn't be changed much. According to Real GM, the trade value of ERob is 20.9 mil and Fizer 10.8 mil which totals 31.7 mil.. 4 years for a total of ~31.7 is just shy of 8 mil/year. This is probably overpaying for Marshall in this day of budget tightening but he'd have to agree to any S&T so maybe that would do it? Anyway he's just a name that seems to be worth considering.

Marshall seems to have been effective at a role many Bull fans want: "power 3". Fizer hasn't been (and IMO shouldn't try to be) and ERob at ~ 206 lbs. isn't gong to be that type of player either. Many Bull fans see Rose as a 2(because he's not strong/big enough to guard big three's) and others see Rose as mainly a 3, why not compromise and let Rose play the 3 most of the time but have Marshall play some minutes there too when the player is a big 3?
 

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My thoughts on Marshall in specific are the following:

1. He has voiced no interest in the Bulls.

2. The Bulls have voiced no interest in him.

3. I agree that he shouldn't be paid an enormous amount of money (he seems to be asking in the $8M range). To me, I think that's a bit much. I think he'd be well worth the $6M we're paying ERob though, If we could arrange a sign and trade that moved the former and brought in the latter, or possibly sent out Best and Fizer and brought in Marshall (basically, any combo that totaled up to about $6M). Fizer, Crawford, and Dillybar? That might be a bit steep, but I'd at least consider it. We'd also still have our mid-level exception available for next year, but we'd definitely have to do something about the center position.

4. I'd like him on our team. I think he's a role player, but so are the guys we'd hypothetically be moving if we acquired him (or to acquire him). He's still relatively young, but he's got a decent amount of experience. He's a good defender and has good all around game.
 

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is Marshall a FA? or would we have to trade for him? or would we have to cut someone to be able to sign him?
 

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Originally posted by Mikedc


Actually, I do kind of like the idea of trading 3 players for 2, or 2 players for 1, if it's the right combination.

I think that right now, we've got kind of a problem in that we've got too much potential and not enough time to go around (especially in the backcourt). My preference would be to find a good deal in which we can exchange two of our unproven players for someone who's still got plenty of basketball ahead of them but who's an upgrade in terms of developed talent.
I agree with that, but I think we're trading apples for apples in this particular deal.

I'd want to get someone who is in his 5-6th year and is a good all-around player. That's just my personal preference.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Agreed:

He hasn't expressed an interest in coming here and the Bull haven't expressed an interest in him. (But: The last article on the Real GM profile page says that S&T's are possible for him however.)

Maybe he'd want to go to a contender instead of a pretender. (But: Maybe he'd accept being overpaid on a bad but improving team with plenty of minutes?)

Maybe he'd revert to Warrior form after getting bigger bucks. (But: Maybe ERob will be out again and/or Fizer will want big bucks in 3 years or cause a stink because Baxter becomes more popular than he is?)

The 3 spot would be the vet spot with the others being held by youngsters.

Just another alternative that's all.
Thanks or responding and making excellent points.

Jazz Salaries

Bull Salaries
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·

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Marshall is a wonderful player and gets better with age. Given the climate of the NBA salary structure, he will give in and go with Utah, no other team can come close to matching their offer. It's just hardball time right now.
 

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Originally posted by Sicky Dimpkins
Performance bonuses: incentives

D'oh! Apparently they are permitted(up to 25% of the contract value).

Change any opinions?
Do incentives count against the cap?

ERob + Fizer = $9,973,954 in salary next year. *.85 = $8,477,860.90 minimum that we'd have to take back in salary.

I like Marshall's game a lot, but that seems like too much to me.

One solution would be to accept John Amaechi too. He was an absolute slug last year, and his comments about not wanting to play were pathetic. Because of that, I could see Utah being willing to include him.

For us, it means taking on an *******, but only for one year (his contract has a qualifying offer after this year, so he'd come off the cap). And its possible that he'd be a decent backup option in the frontcourt.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Originally posted by Mikedc


Do incentives count against the cap?

ERob + Fizer = $9,973,954 in salary next year. *.85 = $8,477,860.90 minimum that we'd have to take back in salary.

I like Marshall's game a lot, but that seems like too much to me.

One solution would be to accept John Amaechi too. He was an absolute slug last year, and his comments about not wanting to play were pathetic. Because of that, I could see Utah being willing to include him.

For us, it means taking on an *******, but only for one year (his contract has a qualifying offer after this year, so he'd come off the cap). And its possible that he'd be a decent backup option in the frontcourt.
Thank you. You taught me something new.

I really thought that it was the value of the contract and not just the first year that had to be within 115% plus $100,000. My premise was wrong. To test this I went to the Real GM trade checker and "traded" Karl Malone for Rose,ERob and Hoiberg. Malone has a contract that dies after this season but it still worked! Pathetic IMO.

In the supplied link it says that incentives do count against the cap IF they "are likely to be achieved".

A swap of bad big(Amaechi) for bad big(Bags) would yield: $2,392,500(Amaechi $) - $914,280(Bags$) = $1,478,220 to address this problem.

Amaechi has a PLAYER option in 04/05 but is guaranteed money at least until then. I can find no qualifying offer and can't understand why this would even be a possibility. He's quite possibly the only center worse than Bags and I agree that the Jazz would welcome the opportunity to get rid of him.

No way in the world do I think Marshall's worth more than the original 31.7 mil/4 years. The ~6 mil figure you mentioned before with an extra ~2 mil based on "likely to be achieved" stats works for me.

Incentives

Jazz Salaries
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Marshall:negotiations update/Utah has luxury tax concerns too

My latest opinion is to express interest in a S&T of Marshall for ERob straight up.
Let Fizer complain all he wants if Marshall steals some of his minutes at the 4. (The Bull would have to change strategy and renounce FA's and I guess exceptions and absorb the difference in salary. Perhaps the mid-level not used this year could be used next year for Howard.)

Marshall gets a bit more than he's worth in order for him to agree to the deal. The Bull get an incentive clause to protect them. The Jazz get a 6'9" SF of lesser value to replace the 6'9" SF they lose. As Dr. Kerr said, S&T's aren't about exchange of = value. Utah would actually "save" money because ERob this season(~$5.7 mil 02/03) makes less than Marshall(~$6.5 mil 01/02) did last season.

Utah Salaries

Bull Salaries

Marshall:

Marshall profile

is a lesser player than Lewis:

Lewis profile

but the difference in the last 2 years isn't that large. If it's a 3 who can play some 4 or at least like a 4(against the larger 3's) that is of interest then Marshall is even more attractive(more rebounds and blocks and less 3 pointers).

A less demanding ($ & minutes) and more realistic alternative to Lewis IMO.
Come on Jerry, at least make a call and consider it.
 

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I'm rather skeptical of a Donyell Marshall deal. From a pure basketball standpoint, he would fill a lot of needs, but to make such a deal happen, we would probably have to compromise our cap situation and flexibility for next year, by overpaying him, taking on extra contracts, etc. And IMO, making such sacrifices would be unwise for a player of Donyell's caliber.

Besides, going from the Jazz to the Bulls would be like night and day. Who knows how he'd react to coming to a rebuilding team filled with a bunch of 20 somethings, half of whom can't even drink beer yet, and is still several years away from competing. The last thing we need on this team is an overpaid malcontent.

I wouldn't necessarily be against a trade for him, I'm just weary that we'd have to overspend to get him, since he'd probably prefer the Jazz over us, and with the league's financial atmosphere as it is right now, I think this team needs to avoid overpriced contracts for mediocre/slightly above average players like the plague. But Dicky you are right, he would atleast be worth looking into.
 

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I think a Marshall-ERob is a non-starter. If I was Utah, I would let Marshall walk before I would obligate myself to ERob's contract.

The problem is that in today's new world due to the luxury tax, Marshall is not worth more than the mid-level exception. And teams are realizing that you just can't pay people more than they are worth anymore.

But if we were able to unload ERob's contract on Utah, I might be interested in the trade.

I think there is a chance that Utah places a high value on Fizer, seeing him as someone who could replace Malone. They also need a SG. Would we gamble that Krause has found the next Hassell in Mason and offer a trade of ERob/Fizer/Hassell for Marshall at $6M/Amaechi/Stevenson?

I am not sure I would, and I think that just like we are with our unproven players, Utah probably still overvalues Stevenson.
 
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