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Discussion Starter #1
All sorts of analysis is possible from looking at the last 24 games including the last 3 without Hinrich and the prior 3 with him.

3-0 absolutely! Better with him than without him as many have suggested? Nonsense.

Keep Duhon and Gordon and trade Hinrich because he's overrated! Nonsense.

Annoint Gordon superstar status! Nonsense.

I noticed SPMJ whom I believe has been particularly hard on Hinrich in game threads (apologies if I'm wrong), said this about Gordon "He's busting his butt on D lately, which is hurting his O."

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2046511&postcount=17

Sound like anybody else on the team who has been doing it for the last two years? I thought that was just an "excuse" used by the "Kirk fans".

Notice Gordon's fourth quarter outbursts have dried up and his percentage has been in steady decline as his minutes have increased? Still think Skiles doesn't know a thing or two about the league? Isn't that what he said when everybody called for Gordon to start and get big minutes?

3-0 without Hinrich? Yup, and look below to see how much our guard play has contributed to that record.

You can talk rookie wall and everything else, but you can't deny a good case can be made that we might be better off turning Gordon into a Maggette or Johnson instead of building the backcourt around him - SportsCenter future nothwithstanding.

I trust Paxson will make the right moves or non-moves.




 

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The sad thing is, facts and objective analysis don't mean much to those who insist we should get rid of Hinrich.

Maybe we can bring in a guy like Hollis Price? That would be cool.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Sloth, you might want to run the numbers. While Hinrich has been gone I believe Eddy is 22-29 from the field. If ever there was a time to state the case for Eddy (especially after last nights manly game) this might be as good a time as any.

Also, lets not forget 3 of Eddy's missed games coincided with 3 of Deng's missed games.

And finally, lets not forget we're 1-0 without Chandler. I wanted to note this just in case this argument doesn't prevail and we're back to the Jamal-era arguments that only W's matter.
 

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Mr. T said:
3-0 absolutely! Better with him than without him as many have suggested? Nonsense.
Who said that?

I noticed SPMJ whom I believe has been particularly hard on Hinrich in game threads (apologies if I'm wrong), said this about Gordon "He's busting his butt on D lately, which is hurting his O."
I also added that his CONDITIONING is the biggest reason for that. He gets tired too quickly. Once he gets better at that, he'll be just fine at both ends of the court.

Kirk's conditioning is not an issue, unlike Ben's. Hinrich struggles on O cuz he's just not a good offensive player and rightfully gets criticized for shooting too much when he's knocking em' down at a deplorable percentage.
 

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SPMJ said:
Who said that?
Kirk's conditioning is not an issue, unlike Ben's. Hinrich struggles on O cuz he's just not a good offensive player and rightfully gets criticized for shooting too much when he's knocking em' down at a deplorable percentage.
More faulty analysis in an effort to validate the Hinrich-bashing.

PER (a.k.a. offensive efficiency)
Gordon: 15.18
Hinrich: 15.20

This is with Gordon taking a higher frequency of shots than Hinrich.

PER = Player Efficiency Rating - A single number that represents a player's ability adjusted for minutes played and pace - a great representation of his offensive ability (30 best - 0 worst)

Facts -- they're elusive.
 
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Discussion Starter #6
SPMJ said:
Who said that?



I also added that his CONDITIONING is the biggest reason for that. He gets tired too quickly. Once he gets better at that, he'll be just fine at both ends of the court.

Kirk's conditioning is not an issue, unlike Ben's. Hinrich struggles on O cuz he's just not a good offensive player and rightfully gets criticized for shooting too much when he's knocking em' down at a deplorable percentage.
No offense, but I'm not going to do anybodies homework. That was suggested more than a few times. Revisit the locked threads of the last few days.

I'm not going to argue that Kirk is a better "scorer" than Ben because it simply isn't true. You are however, completely wrong when you state Hinrich is "just not a good offensive player". Jason Kidd is a borderline sub 40% lifetime shooter. I guess by extension, he too is "just not a good offensive player".

So after four years of Jamal has so much potential, Hinrich doesn't quite get two years and he's hit the ceiling? Theres no chance he'll develop into a highly efficient perimeter shooter as his demands for scoring go down and our overall talent increases? Wow, thats quite a prediction. Yet, you seem to know for a fact Gordon will become what you expect him to become! Bravo!
 

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VincentVega said:
More faulty analysis in an effort to validate the Hinrich-bashing.

PER (a.k.a. offensive efficiency)
Gordon: 15.18
Hinrich: 15.20

This is with Gordon taking a higher frequency of shots than Hinrich.

PER = Player Efficiency Rating - A single number that represents a player's ability adjusted for minutes played and pace - a great representation of his offensive ability (30 best - 0 worst)

Facts -- they're elusive.
When it comes to people criticizing Hinrich, it should say...

Facts -- they're useless. :biggrin:
 

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Mr. T said:
No offense, but I'm not going to do anybodies homework. That was suggested more than a few times. Revisit the locked threads of the last few days.
I have read them all. I don't remember anyone SERIOUSLY saying we're better w/o Kirk. U said "many have suggested" we're better w/o Kirk. I know that's not true. Y don't u prove me otherwise.

You are however, completely wrong when you state Hinrich is "just not a good offensive player".
He's not. He doesn't shoot a good, average or even a below average percentage from inside or outside. Doesn't go to the FT line. Doesn't attack the rim and his assist numbers aren't that great either.

Jason Kidd is a borderline sub 40% lifetime shooter. I guess by extension, he too is "just not a good offensive player".
I wouldn't call him a great offensive player either, but he's obviously pretty darn good. 11 assists per game. That's a LOT more then Kirk's 6. Kidd's been the biggest fast break threat to the league since Magic. And he was a darn good slasher/finisher as well. Kirk's not. In fact, he's among the poorest I've seen at the PG spot. Kidd's had plenty of big scoring games while leading his team to two finals appearances. If Kirk can do that, then I'll call him a good offensive player like Kidd.

So after four years of Jamal has so much potential, Hinrich doesn't quite get two years and he's hit the ceiling?
Well, there are plenty people out there who can't see Kirk ever getting much better then where he's right now. I agree.

Theres no chance he'll develop into a highly efficient perimeter shooter as his demands for scoring go down and our overall talent increases?
It might. His shooting can only improve. But I don't ever see him becoming better then a 40-42% guy. Almost all of his pts come from outside. Hard to imagine someone who scores like that to be a very efficient perimeter scorer.
Yet, you seem to know for a fact Gordon will become what you expect him to become! Bravo!
Gordon's already set plenty of SCORING rookie records. His 20 10+ 4th qtr pts are most in NBA History. He has the most 20+ games off the bench in more then 2 decades. He's accomplished most of this at a very high efficiency rate. Of course, he's been a slump this month but all rookies go through that. Bottomline, Gordon's shown me and MANY others enough to consider him pretty damn good and close to an untouchable.
 

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SPMJ said:
He's not. He doesn't shoot a good, average or even a below average percentage from inside or outside.
39% from the field is below average for a guard, not unclassifiable as you state above. 35% from three is right around average. I think you're exaggerating things again.

Doesn't go to the FT line.
He doesn't get there very much at all, which is one of my biggest knocks on him. But he does get there almost as much as Ben Gordon, a guy who everyone agrees is a great slasher who gets to the rim very well.

Doesn't attack the rim and his assist numbers aren't that great either.
He attacks the rim -- he just doesn't finish. And remember what I said about exaggeration? Hinrich is #9 in the NBA in assists per game, with over 40% of them being of the "close" variety. Seriously, this argument has been run full circle by the Hinrich-bashers. Last year, Kirk wasn't an effective passer because his close assist frequency wasn't great. This year he does have a great close assist frequency, but his numbers "aren't that great". Talk about circular logic.

Well, there are plenty people out there who can't see Kirk ever getting much better then where he's right now. I agree.
Sure there are. They're the same people who said that Hinrich was out of his league playing ball at Kansas, the same people who said that Hinrich would never make the NBA, and the same people who said that if he did get lucky enough to make the NBA, he'd be a career scrub playing 3 minutes a night.
 

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kukoc4ever said:
Talking about trading Hinrich for Ray Allen or Larry Hughes is now "bashing."
Translation or elucidation, please.
 

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No, Talking about trading Hinrich for Ray Allen or Larry Hughes is not "bashing."

No one is untochable if the right trade came along.
 

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VincentVega said:
Translation or elucidation, please.

Mr T said:
Keep Duhon and Gordon and trade Hinrich because he's overrated! Nonsense.
I don't think anyone is saying trade Hinrich for nothing. And not because he's overrated. Just that perhaps he's our most expendable player with a decent trade value. If we can improve the team... any player should be traded.
 

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VincentVega said:
He doesn't get there very much at all, which is one of my biggest knocks on him. But he does get there almost as much as Ben Gordon, a guy who everyone agrees is a great slasher who gets to the rim very well.
He does average 2 more FTA per 48 minutes(as u pointed out). And I honestly think anybody who watches Bulls games can easily see a pretty big difference in offensive skill level between the two. Ben can very EASILY take his man off the dribble and take it to the rim most of the time he feels like it. He can finish it as well. Kirk's not on that level.

Sure there are. They're the same people who said that Hinrich was out of his league playing ball at Kansas, the same people who said that Hinrich would never make the NBA, and the same people who said that if he did get lucky enough to make the NBA, he'd be a career scrub playing 3 minutes a night.
Good, more motivation for Kirk. I don't think he'll get much better then what he's right now. If he does, great for me. He does play for my favorite team after all.
 

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Originally Posted by Mr T

Keep Duhon and Gordon and trade Hinrich because he's overrated! Nonsense.

Help me out here, kukoc4ever. Where were Ray Allen and Larry Hughes mentioned?

I don't think anyone disagrees with the notion of trading a player to make the team better. What's quite transparent is the you "paraphrasing" Mr.T's comment and assuming that he did not approve of trading Hinrich for Allen or Hughes because it was "bashing".

Come on, man.
 

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SPMJ said:
He does average 2 more FTA per 48 minutes(as u pointed out). And I honestly think anybody who watches Bulls games can easily see a pretty big difference in offensive skill level between the two. Ben can very EASILY take his man off the dribble and take it to the rim most of the time he feels like it. He can finish it as well. Kirk's not on that level.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Ben Gordon. A big fan. The thing is, if he's not scoring, he doesn't really do anything else. He can't run the team from the PG spot, he's not a great defender, he's not a great rebounder. This isn't the case with Kirk (and Duhon) -- when they're not scoring, they're still effective in the other facets of the game. The game is not all about "offensive skill". There's other variables involved.
 

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SPMJ said:
Yes, they aren't great. That's what I said. 6.7 is pretty good for a PG. But they're not elite.
You're right, it's not elite. It's pretty good for a PG.

Only Hinrich spends a lot of his time at SG. Duhon plays PG for the Bulls 26 mpg, that only leaves 22 minutes for Hinrich. Hinrich plays 37.2 minutes.

I'll even forget that FWill and Pargo have played some PG for the Bulls, THE MOST Hinrich could be playing at PG is 22 minutes/game. That means he is spending AT LEAST 15.2 minutes at SG.

15.2 divided by 37.2 equals 40.86 per cent of Hinrich's minutes at shooting guard. (And again, the true total is a little higher, not much)

So 6.7 assists for a guy who only plays PG 59% of the time (22 minutes per game)- and who spends his SG minutes on the floor with Duhon in the backcourt, one of the absolute worst shooting % starters in the league- that's pretty damn good.

Great? Probably pretty close. Bordering on great. A hell of a long way above "not that great".


Isn't it funny how someone tries to discredit Hinrich, and it turns out to actually be a positive?
 

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VincentVega said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Ben Gordon. A big fan. The thing is, if he's not scoring, he doesn't really do anything else. He can't run the team from the PG spot, he's not a great defender, he's not a great rebounder. This isn't the case with Kirk (and Duhon) -- when they're not scoring, they're still effective in the other facets of the game.
I'll agree with that. But u have to admit his D has come a long way, and he's no longer a "liability" when not scoring. Cuz Skiles wouldn't keep him on the floor for so long when Ben's struggling on O(like he has this month). Regarding Ben's ability(or inability) to run the PG spot, does he ever have to? When Ben's on the floor, so are either Duhon or Kirk. I don't see his lack of PG skills as as big of an issue as some others seem to. Even if we do trade Kirk for a "stud SG", we'll always have Duhon(we better sign this guy) to run the things. He's run it very well this season, w/ or w/o Kirk.

The game is not all about "offensive skill". There's other variables involved.
I never said it was. I was just pointing out the big difference in offensive skill level between Kirk and Ben.
 
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