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Winter's advice: change Odom's role
By KEVIN DING
The Orange County Register

EL SEGUNDO – The Lakers' existing triangle offense has revealed alarming weakness in three consecutive losses, and if Tex Winter has his way, Lamar Odom will pay for it with his job.

Winter, the triangle inventor and a mentor to Lakers coach Phil Jackson, said Tuesday he has had numerous discussions with Jackson about removing Odom from his role as guard facilitator, but Jackson has resisted.

Asked what is a reasonable time frame to evaluate Odom for a final decision, Winter said: "I'd say this homestand - or at least part of it."

Asked if moving Odom would mean removing Kobe Bryant from the wing position he likes and placing him back in his longtime role of guard facilitator, Winter said: "You could, or you could put Odom at 'four' and Kobe at 'three' and just use one of the other guards with Parker. I think some of those younger guards are pretty good players. I like (Devin) Green a whole lot; I like (Laron) Profit a whole lot."

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Yeah, he has started to fit less and less into the triangle. He holds the ball too long and really doesn't have "great" court vision like I thougtht he had. Maybe he'll get comfortable, but it doesn't look like it right now.

And I agree about Green and Profit, both those guys seem to make very good, and quick, decisions with the ball in the limited PT they've gotten.
 

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Odom can't make a layup that seems to be his problem. Also, he needs to be more agressive on the offensive end. He looked good during preseason when he was rebounding on the defensive end and running the ball upcourt for a fastbreak. In my eyes he should be averaging less rebounds and dishing more assists and scoring more buckets. The rebounding should be where Kwame and Mihm excel but this hasn't been the case.
 

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Shaolin said:
What if the problem isn't the player, but the system?
The system isn't going to change, nor should it. If Odom can't fit into the triangle he can't fit into any offense worth running to win a title.
 

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maybe the triangle isnt the best offense to use with the personel the lakers have. the triangle doesn't = championships nor wins. it is an efficient offense that can be amazing if the right tools are in place (i.e. players). so if phil is as good a coach as people say he is, then he should not be close minded and do something to make the team better. look at the suns last year, they used what they had and they had the best record in the nba...they didn't use the triangle, but they were successful (for their current standards). if phil is thinking championship, he wont get it with those players, so i suggest he use a different offense until the personel arrives that would be ideal for the triangle...or he can be stubburn and keep losing...i perfer the later.
 

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Pacman & Mamba
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WTF? put Odom at the four spot!?

That gives me flashbacks of last season!
 

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The Black Mamba
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I somewhat agree with Winter's views. I like the idea of Lamar being the point, but Lamar doesn't have a reliable 12-18 foot jumpshot. I say let him bring the ball up, get everyone moving, then have him move down to the post. He has length and quickness to get by other bigs. Also, Lamar needs to stop putting up diaper soft finger rolls and just slam the ball.
 

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duncan2k5 said:
maybe the triangle isnt the best offense to use with the personel the lakers have. the triangle doesn't = championships nor wins. it is an efficient offense that can be amazing if the right tools are in place (i.e. players). so if phil is as good a coach as people say he is, then he should not be close minded and do something to make the team better. look at the suns last year, they used what they had and they had the best record in the nba...they didn't use the triangle, but they were successful (for their current standards). if phil is thinking championship, he wont get it with those players, so i suggest he use a different offense until the personel arrives that would be ideal for the triangle...or he can be stubburn and keep losing...i perfer the later.
Phil is a great choice partially because of the triangle and his (and Winter's) understanding of it. It would be foolish to replace the offense with something Phil has never run before in any season he has been a head coach in the NBA. I'm all for tweaking the offense to fit the personel, but abandoning the triangle altogether would be disasterous. As long as Jackson emphasizes defense and trapping, and gets in the proper practice necessary to run basic triangle sets, the Lakers will be OK. Of course, "OK" is relative, they don't have the players to compete for a title, and severly lack frontcourt defenders (plenty of backcourt defenders, no frontcourt defenders beyond Kwame, who doesn't block any shots).

Really, it's like asking Greg Popovich to put a little less emphasis on defense. It's just not going to happen, nor should it really.
 

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EHL said:
Phil is a great choice partially because of the triangle and his (and Winter's) understanding of it. It would be foolish to replace the offense with something Phil has never run before in any season he has been a head coach in the NBA. I'm all for tweaking the offense to fit the personel, but abandoning the triangle altogether would be disasterous. As long as Jackson emphasizes defense and trapping, and gets in the proper practice necessary to run basic triangle sets, the Lakers will be OK. Of course, "OK" is relative, they don't have the players to compete for a title, and severly lack frontcourt defenders (plenty of backcourt defenders, no frontcourt defenders beyond Kwame, who doesn't block any shots).

Really, it's like asking Greg Popovich to put a little less emphasis on defense. It's just not going to happen, nor should it really.
the popovich comparison doesn't really fly bcause that was not the point. i was not saying phil should not focus on offense. but i get what you are saying. Pop has a certain defensive scheme that he runs, but i guarantee if he didn't have the shotblockers in the back and the perimeter stopper in bruce, he would still focus on defense, but the scheme would change to fit the personel. if he had a team like the suns of last year, he would probably play more zone. im not saying phil should scrap the triangle forever, just until the players that would maximize the offense comes to the lakers, because in my opinion if they run a different offense, they would be more successful. odom has thrived (and seemed to have more fun, thus increasing his influence on the court) in uptempo-style games. remember the game when kobe was out and the lakers were running up and down and he said that is lamar odom basketball? he was trying to send a message. if if the break fails, then set up in a more conventional motion offense (like that of the spurs). the pick and roll game at times can be successful, but don't use kwame, he sucks, use kobe/smush and odom. odom is more mobile and when he rolls all he has to do is finish the layup...and thats the hard part. then when the lakers trade kwame and odom for a bigman and a better wing, then go back to the triangle
 

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They don't need to change anything. All Odom has to do is use wisdom when he is driving to the basket and finish his shots to bring up his scoring. The reason why this should not be an issue because Parker has shown to really be comfortable in the offense and sometimes more comfortable than Odom so Odom has help at initiating the offense. No need to change. BUT.....I think that Odom and Mihm can be more productive than Kwame and Mihm so will see.
 

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duncan2k5 said:
maybe the triangle isnt the best offense to use with the personel the lakers have. the triangle doesn't = championships nor wins. it is an efficient offense that can be amazing if the right tools are in place (i.e. players). so if phil is as good a coach as people say he is, then he should not be close minded and do something to make the team better. look at the suns last year, they used what they had and they had the best record in the nba...they didn't use the triangle, but they were successful (for their current standards). if phil is thinking championship, he wont get it with those players, so i suggest he use a different offense until the personel arrives that would be ideal for the triangle...or he can be stubburn and keep losing...i perfer the later.
Thats pretty much what I was getting at. The system you use has to be tailored to the types of players you have. IMO its retarded to insist on systemic doctrine if that doctrine does not bring success with current resources. *Part* of the Lakers problems on offense is that they're not wholly comfortable yet with this system. Another problem is that hey, guess what, the other guy is studying what you're gonna do and you run the risk of becoming very predictable.

So for me I can't just throw blame at the players. Mankind has yet to devise a perfect system in any capacity. And while I respect Mr. Winters opinion he could at least give the players until the midseason point.

Really, it's like asking Greg Popovich to put a little less emphasis on defense. It's just not going to happen, nor should it really.
Defense is a fundamental principal in all sports, and any decent team makes defense a priority. I get your point but the analogy doesn't work for me.
 

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How about Lamar Odom finally stepping the frick up? That would be a nice change of pace.
 

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duncan2k5 said:
the popovich comparison doesn't really fly bcause that was not the point. i was not saying phil should not focus on offense. but i get what you are saying. Pop has a certain defensive scheme that he runs, but i guarantee if he didn't have the shotblockers in the back and the perimeter stopper in bruce, he would still focus on defense, but the scheme would change to fit the personel. if he had a team like the suns of last year, he would probably play more zone. im not saying phil should scrap the triangle forever, just until the players that would maximize the offense comes to the lakers, because in my opinion if they run a different offense, they would be more successful. odom has thrived (and seemed to have more fun, thus increasing his influence on the court) in uptempo-style games. remember the game when kobe was out and the lakers were running up and down and he said that is lamar odom basketball? he was trying to send a message. if if the break fails, then set up in a more conventional motion offense (like that of the spurs). the pick and roll game at times can be successful, but don't use kwame, he sucks, use kobe/smush and odom. odom is more mobile and when he rolls all he has to do is finish the layup...and thats the hard part. then when the lakers trade kwame and odom for a bigman and a better wing, then go back to the triangle
I think the transition offense will come, but the triangle doesn't prohibite or even minimize transition offense as much as people say it does. The triangle is just like any other motion offense, just with many different sets you normally don't see in something like, say, the Princeton offense, and obviously you overload one side of the court in a lot of the triangle sets that Phil runs which is quite a bit different from what Adelmen runs in Sacramento.

Overall, I can almost guarantee that the personel will change before the offense changes, whether it's an overhaul (highly unlikely) or a few tweaks (sort of likely).
 
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