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Discussion Starter #1
Unlike Indy or Sac or other Vet teams we cannot win with key injuries.
While everybody is healthy we have one of the better benches in the league , but when 2 starters R out (and Kirk , Du and Chapu injured too) we just cannot produce.

Now , we keep talking about how we need a big defensive SG , but we fail to talk about how we must get more offensive tools.

Pax has his work cut out for him in summer. With no Pick and only the mle to throw around he's got to get at least 2 players that can also score and also fit tough play mold.

So if we return to SG - Raja does fit. He is a good defender , and in the last 2 seasons also showed ability to score on set plays. Decent+ 3p weapon.

And this is where I return to much talked about Oberto - mostly I read about how people do not expect anything from him , usually based on seeing him only in the Olympics. So I'll tell ya one thing - not only is he tough , He is a better offensive player than all our Bigs (except Eddy of course). Unlike Tyson , Othella and AD - he can hit the midrange J with very high efficiency. Yes , he might have problems with quicker big players , but still , they will get banged. Eddy , being so soft and not able to play through pain , has to make Pax understand we must get another offensive useful player of the Bench. We are already a good defensive team (not so much recently) , but we're still an awful offensive team. Now I'm not going as far as saying we need to sign a Flip kind of player to help our offense on expense of defense.
I'm just saying whoever Pax brings has to have offensive tools as well!

I think we're the only team in the league with no player scoring over 16 points (I did not check it , but I think it is correct , unless Kirk made it to 16 with 27 points last night).It's also due to minutes given by Skiles ,but that has it's reasoning for the most part.
 

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This is exactly why I wanted John Paxson to trade Tyson Chandler for Vladmir Radmanovic and Ronald Murray. We add 2 offensive players, and lose none. I don't know what people don't understand, Tyson does a good job and all, but Eddy is starting to come around as a defender too, and Tyson and Eddy don't play well together, so when you have to choose between the two, hands down you keep Curry, no questions asked. Ben Gordon and Eddy Curry are the only 2 real scorers on our team, Kirk just chucks so many shots he's bound to get that many points, and Luol Deng is an efficient scorer, goes off on some nights, but not often. But Curry, Gordon, Murray, and Vlad. Now were talking about real scoring threats. We need more scoring, as long as we have a coach like Skiles, we will be a pretty good defensive team, because guys won't play if they don't play defense.
 

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What I don't understand is not going to Ben early in the game when we are struggling. Skiles should just tell him to play like it's the fourth.

When Deng gets back I hope for him to get more looks offensivily.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
BabyBlueSlugga7 said:
This is exactly why I wanted John Paxson to trade Tyson Chandler for Vladmir Radmanovic and Ronald Murray. We add 2 offensive players, and lose none. I don't know what people don't understand, Tyson does a good job and all, but Eddy is starting to come around as a defender too, and Tyson and Eddy don't play well together, so when you have to choose between the two, hands down you keep Curry, no questions asked. Ben Gordon and Eddy Curry are the only 2 real scorers on our team, Kirk just chucks so many shots he's bound to get that many points, and Luol Deng is an efficient scorer, goes off on some nights, but not often. But Curry, Gordon, Murray, and Vlad. Now were talking about real scoring threats. We need more scoring, as long as we have a coach like Skiles, we will be a pretty good defensive team, because guys won't play if they don't play defense.
Ha ha.

Maybe Eddy for those 2 , and it's still not worth it.
Who will rebound without Tyson , not your guy anyway.

BabyBlue - Tyson is our best (and only)shotblocker , our best rebounder (all the 'little things' U will learn to appreciate in time after some years as a BB fan) and Our most efficient player! He's about 20% more efficient than Eddy(and thats without his way better Defense). So trade one offensive tool That plays No D and rebounds less than Earl Boykins for 2 offensive players. But do not give your only Shotblocker , best rebounder , and the only player in the team among top 50 in the league in eff per minutes.
 

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bullet said:
BabyBlue - Tyson is our best (and only)shotblocker , our best rebounder (all the 'little things' U will learn to appreciate in time after some years as a BB fan) and Our most efficient player! He's about 20% more efficient than Eddy(and thats without his way better Defense). So trade one offensive tool That plays No D and rebounds less than Earl Boykins for 2 offensive players. But do not give your only Shotblocker , best rebounder , and the only player in the team among top 50 in the league in eff per minutes.
Example is last night, Tyson scored 13 points on 3 shot attempts. Tyson's offense may not be pretty, but it appears he's our most effective guy at drawing fouls, and even his biggest detractor has got to admit he brings it at the defensive end of the floor.
 

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I disagree... we have plenty of depth. Our players just aren't experienced enough yet to win in the face of injuries. In 2 years (if our core is the same) we could have the same level of injuries and win against New Orleans easily.

That said, this was a game we should have won. Last year's team would have won this game, even.
 

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rwj333 said:
I disagree... we have plenty of depth. Our players just aren't experienced enough yet to win in the face of injuries. In 2 years (if our core is the same) we could have the same level of injuries and win against New Orleans easily.

That said, this was a game we should have won. Last year's team would have won this game, even.

I agree with you, we have plenty of depth... we can win with key injuries... when AD went down we still won, when Deng went down we still won...

the problems occur when Curry, Deng, Hinrich, and Duhon are ALL injured... no team could win with 3-5 of their best players injured!
 

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bullet said:
Unlike Indy or Sac or other Vet teams we cannot win with key injuries.
While everybody is healthy we have one of the better benches in the league , but when 2 starters R out (and Kirk , Du and Chapu injured too) we just cannot produce.

Now , we keep talking about how we need a big defensive SG , but we fail to talk about how we must get more offensive tools.

Pax has his work cut out for him in summer. With no Pick and only the mle to throw around he's got to get at least 2 players that can also score and also fit tough play mold.

So if we return to SG - Raja does fit. He is a good defender , and in the last 2 seasons also showed ability to score on set plays. Decent+ 3p weapon.

And this is where I return to much talked about Oberto - mostly I read about how people do not expect anything from him , usually based on seeing him only in the Olympics. So I'll tell ya one thing - not only is he tough , He is a better offensive player than all our Bigs (except Eddy of course). Unlike Tyson , Othella and AD - he can hit the midrange J with very high efficiency. Yes , he might have problems with quicker big players , but still , they will get banged. Eddy , being so soft and not able to play through pain , has to make Pax understand we must get another offensive useful player of the Bench. We are already a good defensive team (not so much recently) , but we're still an awful offensive team. Now I'm not going as far as saying we need to sign a Flip kind of player to help our offense on expense of defense.
I'm just saying whoever Pax brings has to have offensive tools as well!

I think we're the only team in the league with no player scoring over 16 points (I did not check it , but I think it is correct , unless Kirk made it to 16 with 27 points last night).It's also due to minutes given by Skiles ,but that has it's reasoning for the most part.
What if the 19 year-old Luol Deng improves like most 19 year-old rookies do?
What if rookie Andres Nocioni gets more comfortable and plays more efficiently?
What about if rookie Chris Duhon works a little more on his outside shot and becomes a little more consistent with it?
What if rookie Ben Gordon works on a few of the holes in his game and is more consistent and more of an all-around player next season?
What about if 22 year-old Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry improve their games some?
What about if second-year player Kirk Hinrich improves half as much as he did going into this season?

Do we really need all of those things to happen in order to have a much improved offensive team? I think if the players make the normal progression that players as young as the Bulls are typically make, the offensive problems will take care of themselves.

And finally, if there is not a lot of roster turnover, might Skiles be able to devote more time into putting in more offensive sets?
 

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HAWK23 said:
I agree with you, we have plenty of depth... we can win with key injuries... when AD went down we still won, when Deng went down we still won...

the problems occur when Curry, Deng, Hinrich, and Duhon are ALL injured... no team could win with 3-5 of their best players injured!
This is what make the Pacers so amazing. Arguably, their three best players - Artest, O'Neal, and Tinsley - are down, yet they still win.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Wynn said:
Example is last night, Tyson scored 13 points on 3 shot attempts. Tyson's offense may not be pretty, but it appears he's our most effective guy at drawing fouls, and even his biggest detractor has got to admit he brings it at the defensive end of the floor.
Yup , and I also think we don't have to expect lots of offense from Tyson.
with the right minutes (32-35) he'll score no more than 12-14 points. But he'll also get 12-15 oards and 2-3 blks , run the floor faster than any 7 footer on court , play good team defense and lead us with clutch defensive presence at the last minutes of games. Offense with him (at least as I see it) should be secondary. If he scores , fine , but we cannot expect it from him. It ain't his cup of tea. Though as tou said - he's our best at drawing fouls , and thats a big plus.
 

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Dan Rosenbaum said:
This is what make the Pacers so amazing. Arguably, their three best players - Artest, O'Neal, and Tinsley - are down, yet they still win.
and I was obviously wrong when I said "no team can win with 3-5 of their best players injured" but I think you would agree with me it's VERY rare to be able to find a team with 3-5 of their best players injured and win consistntly, that's why I'm not worried about our depth.
 

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The Pacers are pretty amazing. It's all about the coaching and effort with them. They just want it more, even though their season is pretty much over. A lottery pick would benefit them much more than a playoff berth.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Dan Rosenbaum said:
What if the 19 year-old Luol Deng improves like most 19 year-old rookies do?
What if rookie Andres Nocioni gets more comfortable and plays more efficiently?
What about if rookie Chris Duhon works a little more on his outside shot and becomes a little more consistent with it?
What if rookie Ben Gordon works on a few of the holes in his game and is more consistent and more of an all-around player next season?
What about if 22 year-old Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry improve their games some?
What about if second-year player Kirk Hinrich improves half as much as he did going into this season?

Do we really need all of those things to happen in order to have a much improved offensive team? I think if the players make the normal progression that players as young as the Bulls are typically make, the offensive problems will take care of themselves.

And finally, if there is not a lot of roster turnover, might Skiles be able to devote more time into putting in more offensive sets?
I'm happy to be the one to fish you today Dan (and A Rosenbaum on a Saturday to say the least :biggrin: )

Surprisingly , despite the context of the thread , I totally agree and expect all those players to improve. In fact , I posted in a different thread that looking at all the teams in the league , hypothetically , if no team changed their roster , I think we'd be the team to improve the most. I think all the players you wrote about have not reached their peak yet.

As I see it , the last question in your post is the most important - what will Skiles do about our offense. I hope Pax takes a top assistant coach specializing in offensive sets (I have no idea who that might be and who's available).

Though I still insist the players Pax brings should have some offensive weapons . Raja has the ability. so does Oberto - who as I see it , might provide us something we really lack - a big guy hitting the 16 footer. AD ain't consistent in that , othella ain't good at that , Eddy scores mostly closer , and Tyson just does not have the touch. A bonner kind of player is neccesary , and I believe Oberto can fill that need.
 

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HAWK23 said:
and I was obviously wrong when I said "no team can win with 3-5 of their best players injured" but I think you would agree with me it's VERY rare to be able to find a team with 3-5 of their best players injured and win consistntly, that's why I'm not worried about our depth.
How many games did Utah win last year? Seems to me they lost Stockton, Malone, and Harpring (much of the time).
 

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DaBullz said:
How many games did Utah win last year? Seems to me they lost Stockton, Malone, and Harpring (much of the time).

i'm not so sure I'm gonna give into this one... it's not the same Utah knew they wouldn't have stock/malone to begin the season... so they had time to sign guys to help their club... injuries are when you have players on your team and when they go down you have less players to play with, and your unprepared because you weren't expecting it... Utah expected not to have those guys... I think it's too different to compare
 

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Dan Rosenbaum said:
This is what make the Pacers so amazing. Arguably, their three best players - Artest, O'Neal, and Tinsley - are down, yet they still win.
They still win against average/mediocre/poor teams. Lets see:
Lakers
Utah
Golden State
Utah (again)
Portland

Now, with Oneal they defeated Miami, Dallas and Cleveland. But they arent overachievers IMO.
 

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I agree our depth is OK

We have made huge strides as a team - its just that we haven't found a way to win hurt yet

Rome wasn't built in a day

In addressing the issue of depth I would think that Donyell Marshall would be our top priority .. which if we are successful in signing him , may :

A. Cost Othella Harrington his spot
B. Put bringing Chris Duhon back in jeopardy and leave the LLE open only

Would the LLE be enough to entice Raja Bell or Devin Brown to town ?

If its a choice between Duhon, Bell or Brown for the LLE ... we will get one of them at around this level which will probably be around the $1.8M mark and if we can offer around 25mpg + if he performs , you'd have to think that the Devin Brown is the fair chance for slightly less money he will get elsewhere but bigger opportunity

Rick Brunson and Chris Duhon are putting up pretty similar numbers and have a similar effect on their team

To add depth and balance our team are we better off just letting Duhon go and try and bring a vet point guard like Rick Brunson back at a substantially lower cost if we're putting the dollars into Marshall and Brown

If it is Duhon at the LLE then the guy whose drum I'v been banging for awhile is the Clippers Quinton Ross

Give Mario Austin a shot in camp to ride shotgun with AD with an eye to using him as an eventual replacement



Curry
Davis
Deng
Brown
Hinrich


bench

Chandler
Marshall
Nocioni
Piatowski
Gordon

Austin
Ross
Brunson




Maybe a Davis and Piatowski for Pollard and Croshere trade makes sense for both teams

The net effect for Chicago is we take back an extra $7.5M ( approx ) the season after next. It really should not effect luxury tax next year given that next season with whatever we pay Tyson and Eddy , AD and Piatowski would be earning $16.5M and Croshere and Pollard would be making $15M

Its the season after next ( when Jay Will's extension would have kicked ) in that the net cost of the trade in salary terms - $7.5M net of Croshere and $9M in actual salary counting against the cap, and also when Eddie Robinson's and Jay Williams's buyouts will be off the books and stop counting against our cap , should it be rationalised as to whether its worth having an expiring contract of $9M belonging to Austin Croshere on your books

In this context , I might add that letting Othella Harrington go and not pursuing Marshall because you have Croshere and Pollard , enables you to :

1. Split the MLE this year with Duhon and Brown say which sets the long term 4 guard rotation at reasonable cost for the next 2 seasons , before Kirk's extension kicks in after Croshere's contract expires

2. Therefore save the LLE paid to anybody - Duhon or Brown as I proposed earlier , for a term deal

3. Would likely not require any use of our MLE exception or LLE exception next year either

By saving the LLE this year by going down this path and not spending any exception money next year - the move of acquiring Croshere and Pollard for Davis and Piatowski , is still reasonably equal in financial terms of

1. Signing Donyell Marshall
2. And one of Chris Duhon/RajaBell/ Devin Brown

this season

From a basketball point of view , if the financial ramifications are the same (or similar ) moving Davis and Piatowski would enable us to

1. Get two big men for Davis - a true back up Center and our shooting/scoring forward we are looking for

2. Sign both Duhon and say Brown - cementing our 4 guard back court for a hell of a long time

The two questions then :

Question 1

A.

Curry, Chandler , Davis and Marshall

or

B.

Curry, Chandler , Pollard and Croshere

Question 2

A.

Hinrich, Gordon , Piatowski , Brown

B.

Hinrich , Gordon, Brown , Duhon

So why would the Bulls do it ?

More coverage / depth for roughly the same amount of money you are committing if the skillsets you are seeking are also similar

It means that Tyson would need to be brought into the starting line up with Eddy and that Ben has to be ready to start with Kirk in the back court

Why for the Pacers ?

$9M worth of salary relief comes 1 year early and they have extensions coming due for Jamal Tinsley next season and Fred Jones the season after

So to wrap it all up into one question ;

Would you deal AD and Piatowski for Pollard and Croshere if it meant you bypassed Donyell Marshall but still had enough capacity to sign BOTH Duhon and one of Bell/Brown , instead of one of these latter 3 only ?
 
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