I think it's simple: The BE7 and Xavier, Dayton, Saint Louis are peers when it comes to athletics spending.

The BE7 has teams in six Top 40 markets.
They're targeting our teams in markets #19, #27, and #35; considering #44, #58 and #62.

And here's MBB OOC success over the last five years (which is the true measure of what each team brings a conference on the court):
.893* G-Town
.839* NOVA
.810* DAY
.810* Marq
.758* PROV
.750* HALL
.729 VCU
.719 Temple
.719* Butler
.696* Xavier
.650 RICH
.642 DUQ
.641* StJohns
.623* SLU
.621 LaSalle
.614 URI
.608 Bona
.582 CHAR
.574* DEP
.556 UMAss
.528 GW
.517 StJoes
.347 FOR

 

It is scary there are individuals out there that have logic as flawed as this.

With regard to LaSalle and St Bona… as the old saying goes, there is nowhere to go but up. St Bona has had 1 (single) NCAA appearance in 34 and 0 (zero) NCAA wins in 42 years. I certainly hope they are on an “upturn.”

And how do you reach the conclusion Xavier is on a “downturn?” Xavier is coming off an Elite 8, Sweet 16, Sweet 16, 1st Round, and Sweet 16. A 5-star joined X this season; next season three 4 stars and one 3 star will join the roster and the following season, another 4 star is committed.

 

It is scary there are individuals out there that have logic as flawed as this.

With regard to LaSalle and St Bona… as the old saying goes, there is nowhere to go but up. St Bona has had 1 (single) NCAA appearance in 34 and 0 (zero) NCAA wins in 42 years. I certainly hope they are on an “upturn.”

Umm.. if you're going to point out someone else's flaws it's best to make sure all your ducks are in a row as well. Not that it's a great accomplishment, but SBU has TWO NCAA appearances in the last 34 years.

 

LaSalle didn't lose 20 games; I've heard that is the new standard

 

As a Louisville guy, I'm still upset with you guys for not beating Kentucky back in '99 or 2000 or whatever year that was. Dammit.

 

2000. And collectively we are all still extremely upset. Damn Tayshaun Prince.

 

This should be looked as a positive for some of the A10 schools. With X and Temple gone the two programs that have owned the league for the last decade new teams can step forward to take their places and develop their brands.

 

If X moves, can I still play Humiliation, er, Lock of the Day? I love the Lock crowd. Posters respect each other, and it's one of my favorite contests.

 

Yeah I'd think VCU would be poised to take up the mantle in the A-10 if those teams leave. Heck, we're already one of the better teams in the league with all of those programs in the A-10 as it stands. Richmond would also benefit. It would probably become the premier rivalry in the league and that could benefit both programs.

 

Duquesne has not been a door mat since 2005 by the way... the last 6 years have been pretty successful.

 

In 2005-06, Duquesne was 3-24. In 2006-07, 10-19. In three of the years since, Duquesne has been 7-9 in the conference. They also mixed in two decent seasons. That's not Fordham, but it's still trending towards the doormat end of things.

 

Actually it is trending away from the doormat end of things.

The Dukes made it to the A10 tourney championship, the NIT (OT game vs VT), two CBI appearances with one win(Montana).

They also were in the others recieving votes in the AP and coaches poll during that time.

They have been a middle of the pack A10 team for 6 years and this year will likely be the same.

Next year is looking to be better than this year based on personnel.

With how many teams are between 7-9 and 9-7 every year that is pretty much solid middle of the pack.

 

Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money Money

 

Let me just clear things up...LaSalle sucks.

Please see below.

 

Kyle Anderson, Gary Harris, Adrian Payne, etc...A-10? Hard to sell.

Big East - easier sell.

Don't get offended.

Explorer Steve reminds me of Lucille LaRusso, pushing her station wagon up the hill to get it started...embarrassing the hell out of the family.

 

An Explorer Steve appearance always takes the heat off us UD guys for a while. Thanks Steve.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using VerticalSports.Com App

 

There wouldn't be much heat if you kept your trolls under control, but we know that isn't possible, so...........

 

UD's historic rivals:
Xavier
Miami U.
DePaul
Marquette
Saint Louis
Cincinnati
Notre Dame

Naturally, being in a league with X, Marquette and DePaul is a good fit for UD. Obviously, Miami is not the program they once were. Saint Louis is with us now, and I'd love to see it that way in the future (although that certainly seems dicey at the moment). Cincinnati is pursuing their sad football dream. Notre Dame certainly thinks they're too good for us.

Those schools plus the quality of Georgetown and Villanova and potential of St. John's sounds really good, regardless of what you think of Providence and Seton Hall, neither of which is a terrible program, just a bit mediocre.

Also, Steve81 made a good point about money.

 

UD's historic rivals:
Xavier
Miami U.
DePaul
Marquette
Saint Louis
Cincinnati
Notre Dame

Louisville is one of Dayton's longest standing rivals, well above Notre Dame, St. Louis, and Marquette.

At least Louisville has actually scheduled us compared to some of those teams. Well, until we beat them about 3-4 times in a row at Freedom Hall and US Aviary Arena.

 

I believe the Duquesne-Dayton rivalry has been alright recently.

Dayton leads the series 44-22 I think.

 

Louisville is one of Dayton's longest standing rivals, well above Notre Dame, St. Louis, and Marquette.

At least Louisville has actually scheduled us compared to some of those teams. Well, until we beat them about 3-4 times in a row at Freedom Hall and US Aviary Arena.

Definitely two I missed. And while we have played Duquesne a lot, I don't think our fans are that passionate about the rivalry. What do Duquesne think of playing Dayton?

We did used to play Louisville a lot, but, yeah, that one is in the Cincinnati stage of not coming back. They won't be visiting UD Arena in the foreseeable future.

 

Personally, I view Dayton as one of our top 3 A10 rivals. Perhaps just after St. Bonventure actually.

I think the fact the game has been at Consol also shows that the administration thinks it is a rivalry.

I like the games a lot because you guys always bring a good crowd with you to Pittsburgh. In my earlier days I would thoroughly enjoy yelling obscenities toward your fans from the student section every time Dayton scored.

Also, our fan base and students seem to recognize the Dayton name more than a lot of other A10 schools. Overall I think it is a second tier rival for the Dukes.

1st tier: Pitt, Robert Morris, St. Bonaventure
2nd tier: Dayton, Xavier, West Virginia (there would be a lot of discussion about the second tier)

I think Steve from yuku did a pretty impressive analysis of Duquesne's top rivals I will try to find the post.

 

I haven't read most of this thread, but I'm assuming I will be repeating most of the same things. It's basically all about money and prestige. The conference is slightly better in terms of talent and "trims the fat" a little bit, as others elsewhere have said. It boosts the school's profile by being in the Big East and makes it easier to recruit. The new conference will get a larger media deal per team and will probably get about the same number of tournament bids but will have fewer schools to share the money with. Butler also an extra game in Chicago every year which they want (large Chicago alumni base).

 

Yeah, and if Crum was the coach, that neutral would have been in Dayton, and the series would have continued.

 

Some interesting financial data here:

http://www.vuhoops.com/big-east/2012/12/17/3773760/can-we-afford-this-catholic-7-villanova-conference-change-big-east

 

Strange article. They talk extensively about X and UD's profitability, but they fail to list UD in their chart on the left. When you're a Dayton fan, you can find a snub anywhere.

They did shove it at the bottom as an update though.

 

X and Dayton need to spend more money! Quit playing in those profitable arenas and start playing in less convenient, more expensive arenas. That seems to be the take-away. Also, I don't think they are comparing apples to apples here. I don't think schools account for the numbers submitted here the same way. Some obviously just zero out the athletic departement, so it's hard to say how much the actually spend on athletics and how much is just a distribution to the university's general fund.

 

As a Flyer fan, I have been debating with another fan the pros/cons of the A-10 v a new conference.

I finally took time to look at numbers to see if some initial impressions held up, in particular how valuable Providence, SH, St Johns and DePaul would be to link up with.

Long post. Hope you follow my thinking. Hope it is informative and gives you something to ponder.

RPI numbers aren't the best measure, but easiest to look up from year to year. And I know Big East plays the RPI game well so their numbers are probably inflated over A-10 teams numbers. But I think trends can be determined. I am looking at the past 10 years. This seems fair. It looks beyond recent successes. It also shows if teams have rebounded from a bad season or two. And it doesn't penalize a team that has had 1 or 2 bad recent seasons.

(I apologize for the format of the table. Hard to read. Getting late. Couldn't figure out why it wouldn't appear as I wanted it to.)


02-03 03-04 04-05 05-06 06-07 07-08 08-09 09-10 10-11 11-12 Ave RPI
DePaul 81 30 63 90 56 157 205 217 233 194 132.6
Providence 56 23 93 105 78 109 77 147 158 156 100.2
St Johns 52 166 167 135 131 156 140 78 25 153 120.3
Seton Hall 45 21 133 62 156 113 101 70 103 69 87.3
Georgetown 74 138 77 26 6 8 66 16 15 14 44
Villanova 83 53 14 2 19 42 8 15 45 121 40.2
Marquette 7 67 94 40 26 20 27 56 49 9 39.5

UD 17 37 117 184 76 28 26 37 80 91 69.3
XU 23 20 130 72 27 9 15 17 26 37 37.6
SLU 77 58 184 102 74 135 130 80 183 28 105.1
Butler 21 152 239 80 22 16 22 7 19 105 68.3

VCU 135 45 91 74 44 60 51 46 31 34 61.1
St Joes 29 2 47 53 97 50 105 184 163 75 80.5
Richmond 106 39 146 205 272 129 124 24 33 131 120.9
URI 92 69 301 152 108 74 61 36 103 262 125.8
GW 163 65 61 31 70 185 203 148 150 189 126.5
LaSalle 189 170 215 103 268 163 110 178 172 96 166.4
Duquesne 252 162 258 308 219 130 76 112 100 110 172.7
St Bonnies 139 210 312 289 278 265 199 156 128 78 205.4
Fordham 282 212 189 138 112 172 292 304 255 242 220.2

Lets make some definitions
Top 50 Program - Regularly in Top 50 in RPI, thus regularly in the NCAA tournament
Decent Program - RPI 50-100 - Average team that makes occasional NCAA tournament, usually in NIT, occasional bad year (+125 RPI year).
Mediocre Program - RPI 100-125 - Average team that every blue moon makes NCAA tournament, occasional NIT, more than the occasional bad year.
Ehhh Program - RPI 125-200 - Below average team that has good year here and there
Crappy Program (original named this something else but will keep this kid friendly)- RPI +200 - Don't need to say much here.

What's the allure of the potential new conference:

Marquette, GTown and Nova have all 1 or 2 mediocre seasons in the past 10 years but are regularly top 50 teams. So adding in X, one would have a conference with 4 regularly top 50 teams. Butler would make 5 teams. (UD would seem to have advantage over SLU of being the 10 team in if just looking at these numbers. And with Majerus' death, I think that will hold true going forward. However, who knows what will happen.)

Assuming 10 Team league, you would have a conference of
5 Top 50 Programs-- (GTown, Marq, Nova, X, Butler)
3 Mediocre to Decent Programs - - (UD or SLU, SH, Prov) - Providence might be Falling to Ehhh status.
1 Ehhh Program (St Johns) - Still rather have them as my NYC representative than Fordham
1 Falling Towards Crappyness Program -- (Depaul) - They were actually half way decent until the past 4 years. Can they turn it around?

Compare to current A-10
3 -Top 50 (X, Butler, VCU)
5- Mediocre to Decent (UD, SLU, Richmond, SJU, URI) - URI might be in the falling category, but too soon to tell.
3 - Rising Mediocre - still ehhh (LaSalle, Duquesne, SBU) - Have shown some progress last few years to get out of the ehhh category. - Duq has shown most progess and might be a mediocre program now.
1- Falling towards Ehhh - Crappyness (GW) - Have had good years but the last few haven't been. Can they recover?
1 - Crappy (Fordham) - Had a couple of years where you might think they were Rising, but didn't last.

-Ignoring Temple and Charlotte who are leaving and UMass who may/may not be in league long term due to football priorities.

So what's the allure. Well the Catholic 7 have as many Top 50 programs as the current A-13. Moving to the new conference would give a conference with 5 Top 50 programs and less people to have to spread the cash around.

This is the fundamental problem with the makeup of the A-10. I really have liked the conference during the time Dayton has been a member, but there are too many mediocre to decent teams. These programs can't be counted on year in and year out, thus there is too much inconsistency. And when these teams are all poor the same year, it really drags the conference down (04-05 and 05-06 prime examples). When they all put it together in the same year, you get 2003-04. (I realize I could be considered hypocritical as UD can be considered one of these programs, unable to consistently reach the NCAA's)

So cutting the fat would seem like the obvious answer to strengthen the A-10. But who do you cut. Besides Fordham, the numbers are all over the place. Bonnies has the 2nd worst RPI average, but that is in part due to the scandal, They have been improving. So has Duquense, who while having a lower ave RPI than GW the past 10 years has outperformed GW the past 5 years. Is URI's previous year a blimp on the screen or are they going into a tailspin? Tell me what Richmond team we are going to see in any given year, the Top 50 or the >125 team?

I think for teams like X and Butler this is a no-brainer. Move to conference with more consistency. A conference that can generate as many bids as the current A-10 and not have to share that money with as many schools. A conference that would consistently earn 4-5 bids. While UD hasn't had NCAA tourney success or many league titles, after X, they have been the most consistent (only 1 bad season) of the long term A-10 members. St Joes is right there as well.

If UD wants to upgrade their conference situation, they have two options, somehow trim the A-10 or join the Catholic 7. Which is easier to do?

If the A-10 stuck together and the Catholic 7 found 3 other partners, it would probably be about the same level as the A-10. Same number of Top 50 programs. But likely (depending who would join) less crappy and ehhh type programs. And less teams to have to share money with. And with ESPN's backing more money to share.

I wish the A-10 and Dayton could make it work, but I don't see how. And thus, I hope UD somehow rides X's coattails once again into a new conference. The A-10, already losing Temple, without Butler/X will be significantly weaker. I suppose it would be easier to win and garner an automatic bid, but it would be the little brother to the new conference. For all the upgrades UD has made to its overall athletic dept the past decade, that would be hard to swallow.

That's my two cents.

 

I apologize for the format of the table.

Great post 434. I tweaked the format of your excellent Table:

Final RPI Rankings: 2002-03 through 2011-12

[b]Team	  02-03 03-04 04-05 05-06 06-07 07-08 08-09 09-10 10-11 11-12  Avg RPI

[color=blue]Marquette     7    67    94    40    26    20    27    56    49     9     39.5
Villanova    83    53    14     2    19    42     8    15    45   121     40.2
Georgetown   74   138    77    26     6     8    66    16    15    14     44.0
Seton Hall   45    21   133    62   156   113   101    70   103    69     87.3
Providence   56    23    93   105    78   109    77   147   158	  156    100.2
St Johns     52   166   167   135   131   156   140    78    25   153    120.3
DePaul       81    30    63    90    56   157   205   217   233   194    132.6[/color][color=red]

Xavier       23    20   130    72    27     9    15    17    26    37     37.6
Creighton    24    74    48    46    22    47    46   106   113    23     54.9
Butler       21   152   239    80    22    16    22     7    19   105     68.3
Dayton       17    37   117   184    76    28    26    37    80    91     69.3
Saint Louis  77    58   184   102    74   135   130    80   183    28    105.1[/color]

VCU  	   135    45    91    74    44    60    51    46    31    34     61.1
St Joes	    29     2    47    53    97    50   105   184   163    75     80.5
Richmond    106    39   146   205   272   129   124    24    33   131    120.9
URI	    92    69   301   152   108    74    61    36   103   262    125.8
GW	   163    65    61    31    70   185   203   148   150   189    126.5
LaSalle	   189   170   215   103   268   163   110   178   172    96    166.4
Duquesne    252   162   258   308   219   130    76   112   100   110    172.7

St Bona     139   210   312   289   278   265   199   156   128    78    205.4
Fordham     282   212   189   138   112   172   292   304   255   242    220.2[/b]

Marquette is not worried about Dayton.

No one is worried about St. Bonaventure.

 

Not to poop in your cornflakes, but since RPI comes from the games you play, and conference affiliation determine over 60% of the games you you play, taking the average RPI doesn't really work for those purposes.

The real value a school brings a conference (aside from TV dollars) is OOC wins. And that can be adjusted. I wouldn't see both leagues shoot themselves in the foot scheduling tougher OOC to compensate for those they are no longer playing with.

The single biggest factor is what this does to recruiting. I have no idea how DePaul could recruit C-USA and not the Big East. I also think that scheduling weaker OOC helps on that front: If you miss the dance, you'll still have the wins to recruit with ("We're close" you can tell kids).

It's "easy" to fake your way into the tournament thru RPI games and improve your recruiting by being on the bracket than to try and play your way in through tough games and lose until you can get better recruits.

 

Not to poop in your cornflakes, but since RPI comes from the games you play, and conference affiliation determine over 60% of the games you you play, taking the average RPI doesn't really work for those purposes.

I agree, the RPI isn't the greatest tool out there. However, it can show some trends. One of which is most A-10 teams are very inconsistent. So when someone makes an argument School A should be kicked out to make league stronger, you could look at this and say School B has had equally bad years. BTW, someone posted somewhere (I can't remember if on this board or elsewhere) the OOC winning percentage of the schools over the past 5 years. The rankings of the schools based on OOC win % is very similar to how these RPI rankings.

It's "easy" to fake your way into the tournament thru RPI games and improve your recruiting by being on the bracket than to try and play your way in through tough games and lose until you can get better recruits.

I agree with this as well. The BE has played this game well. However, I think if your RPI is consistently in the Top 50, the likelihood is you are a Top 50 program. So the new conference would have more Top 50 programs than the current A-10.

For teams in the 75-150 range, playing the RPI game probably inflates your rankings. So SH, Providence, St Johns, and DePaul's ave RPI is likely inflated over the A-10 schools. I concede that point. However, you can see that the A-10 consistently has a number of schools year in and year out, worse than those 4. The RPI game does not make a 70 place difference. This is the problem with the A-10 vs a new conference. The inconsistency of the league, and the fact when A-10 schools hit down cycles, they are really deep down cycles.

By the way XU95, Muddy made no comment saying X would be the best team in the new BE. I am the one "suggesting" it. With the issues the RPI does have, making the case that X is the best in the new league can't be done with the numbers being so close. I will say, obviously, X can compete regularly with those schools.

 

Overall, SBU must be doing something right to draw the ire of 'uddy. It's pretty damn comical--to the point where I wonder if he isn't some recluse genius from GW or La Salle or Richmond just having fun with everybody. He's that unbelievable.

 

Hey, what do you know. Steve was right, as least with respect to Bona and X. Muddy's excellent table clearly shows that Bona is trending up, raising it's RPI every year since '04-'05. And X has been trending down consistently since '07-'08. Way to go, Steve!

 

X, UD, StL, Butler - Explain the "allure" of the BE7 - Post # 1

I'm predominantly asking Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis, and Butler, but invite fans of every A-10 school to tell me why BE7+ is the promised land.

I'll start by saying I don't think it is.

I think BE7 contains 2 or 3 good programs, and 4 that are past their prime.

When certain fan bases sit and criticize Fordham, Bona, LaSalle, Rhody for pulling down this conference, I question how long until those same fan bases are no longer enamored with Seton Hall, DePaul, Providence, and St. John's in BE7+?.

There have been a number of excellent answers on this thread.

Is it all coming together for you now, BrownIndians85 ?

 

There have been a number of excellent answers on this thread.

You're right, there have been many excellent thoughts posted on this thread. Not surprisingly, none of them came from you. While you continue to make excellent use of your cut&paste function and quote the most ridiculous sources for your information, I got many good repsonses from X and UD fans alike.

While I understand the allure of trying the BE7 on for size, I think the "invited" schools will eventually suffer buyers' regret of one fashion or another. As AdamTheFlyer has eloquently pointed out, it's unlikely the NCAA is going to hand out 6-7 bids to this new 10-team conference if that's indeed what happens. Especially when you take into account that 4 of the programs in BE7+ are low-mediocre teams with limited ability to "re-rise". So you need more schools. So you profit share diminishes.

I don't have sour grapes. I know SBU inside and out, and understand where we're at. If X, Butler, and St. Louis believe a 10-team league will be better revenue-wise, then so be it. Better to share NCAA units among 10 than among 14. Competitively, it will be interesting to see what plays out after the BE7 suddenly find themselves unable to schedule the likes of UConn, Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville, and Cincinnati - because that day arrives as soon as the split takes effect. Those gaudy, bloated RPI numbers just won't quite shine the same when you can't boost your profile by losing over half your games.

The arrogance of the self-proclaimed most coveted 7 schools in history will come to roost. Oh, they're sticking together now come hell or high water, but do you honestly think Georgetown believes in the bottom 4? Or shoot, even in any of the other 6? Short of a split amongst the BE7, the BB-only power conference simply isn't happening. ESPN loves the idea. The chosen few love the idea. The four at the bottom of the BE7 REALLY love the idea. Time will tell.